SET Asylum

Single Ended Triodes (SETs), the ultimate tube lovers dream.

Return to SET Asylum

Message Sort: Post Order or Asylum Reverse Threaded

Can I get by with 2 watts?

107.72.178.143
Posted on December 9, 2021 at 12:43:14
catbert242000@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 268
Location: Puerto Rico
Joined: April 17, 2006
 I'm new to tubes, currently using my MP 301MK3 - a 6.5 watt SET.

I like the amp and sound. And I continue to be impressed with the power (perhaps a reflection of my naiveté having lived with SS ).

I have both high sensitivity and low speakers.
Altec's Valencia 97 db. 8 ohm Main #1
EV Aristocrat. 96? db. 16 ohm Main #2
Dayton 87 db. 8 ohm outside patio


The amp has plenty of power for the speakers, even the low sensitivity Daytons. Never goes past 40% on the volume dial. I wonder how many watts are actually being used at normal listening levels?? I'll bet it is low - any way determine, or calculate??

The main Altec's really shine with this little amp; is it true that the first watt is the most important?

I think that a 2 amp may work for me?

Opinions?

 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
RE: Can I get by with 2 watts?, posted on December 9, 2021 at 14:25:27
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 17905
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 Here's my Opinion and Experience with 2 Watt 45 Amplifiers over the last 15 years.

I spent the First 7-8 years running my 45 Amps on 104db Klipsch Belles, and then 104db Klipschorn Bass Bins and Altec 1005B Horns. I had friends come over and they would play 'Big' Music (Rock etc.) until my Amps were Clipping. I rarely drove my 45 Amps to Clipping, as I was listening at lower volumes and Jazz.

I finally decided to Bi-Amp putting the 45 Amps on the Altec Horns and Class 'D' Amps on the Khorn Bass Bins. -- Now I had Plenty of Power and never looked back.

Currently, I have 115db Horns and I have the 45 Amps on the Horns Alone. And I use the Class 'D' Amps on the Klipschorn Bass Bins. I love the 45 Amp SET Sound, but they do need 'Some Help' at Increased Volume and the Bass.... Freeing up the 45 Watts on the Horns made all the difference in the World.

Your speakers are really not that sensitive..... You can get a 2 watt Amp and it will play music, but it will be a compromise.... You will probably want more sensitive speakers, or Bi-Amping (which is what I did - And I highly endorse it).




 

RE: Can I get by with 2 watts?, posted on December 9, 2021 at 15:14:10
Paul Joppa
Industry Professional

Posts: 7271
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001
 Two watts is about 5dB less than 6.5 watts, so the 96-97deB speakers with 2 watts will be about 5dB louder than the Daytons with 6.5 watts. For what it's worth.

 

How much do you want it?, posted on December 9, 2021 at 19:13:33
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 15795
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 My Altec Model 19s are about the same efficiency as the Valencias. With a 45 amp, the mids and tone was wonderful, but at higher levels, the amp just couldn't drive the woofer respectfully. OTOH, I ran the 45s for years on my Edgarhorns which are about 106db with horn loaded bass that dropped off at 80hz, so a pair of subs handled the deep base.

Your neighbors will like your Daytons on the patio because they won't get loud enough to annoy them. ;)

-Rod

 

I lived with 1.6 W amps for a few years, posted on December 10, 2021 at 09:01:32
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9708
Joined: September 24, 1999
 Custom made 10 SET monoblocks hooked to 100 db speakers. They sounded glorious, one of my favorite amps. Despite having plenty of dynamics and volume, there was a "ceiling" to the music, either real or perceived. Low power does have it's limits. Usually in the form of control.
Jack

 

+1 nt, posted on December 10, 2021 at 10:36:50
Ralph
Manufacturer

Posts: 4675
Location: Minnesota
Joined: April 24, 2002
 -

 

You already are getting by with 2W..., posted on December 11, 2021 at 09:09:24
caffeinator
Audiophile

Posts: 1725
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 22, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 6, 2017
 Since you're not running the MP301MK3 flat out, you're already doing well with much less than its rated output.

FWIW, I've lived with a ~2W (probably slightly less - Bottlehead SEX Amp) amp for quite some time, and I've never felt it insufficient. I've run it through a pair of TQWT's w/ 5.5" single drivers (RS 40-1354's) and a pair of Bottlehead Straight 8's. Both had enough volume to fill the room, if not drive you out of the room (usually about 10 x 12 room or so). Not sure of the efficiency of the TQWT's, but the S8's are pretty sensitive.

I did, one time, feel the SEX Amp was running out of gas, but that was driving a pair of AKG K-1000 headphones - I thought I could detect some distortion at high volume levels, though for normal listening it was also quite adequate.

I've yet to try it with speakers I knew were very inefficient, so I can't comment on that. My benchmark for grossly inefficient watt-whores left the lab when I ditched the Speakerlab Super 7's long ago.

 

RE: Can I get by with 2 watts?, posted on December 11, 2021 at 13:06:15
Grinnell
Audiophile

Posts: 702
Location: Front Range
Joined: December 23, 2007
 I have a 4 watt Decware Mini Torii i use with a Ref 3A de Capo speakers. at 92db the de Capos can get pretty loud in a 12x20 room with opening on the long sides

 

"40% on the dial", posted on December 11, 2021 at 14:34:33
Salectric
Audiophile

Posts: 1349
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 23, 2003
 You do realize that the position of the volume control has absolutely nothing to do with the maximum power output of your amp? It is the same as the speedometer on a car---I can put a speedometer with 240 mph scale on a VW beetle but that doesn't mean the car can go that fast.

The volume control attenuates the input signal level to give the listening level you want. It's actual position depends on the signal output of your input source, the gain in the your amplifier and the sensitivity of your speakers. Here's an example. In my system, the phono preamp has a much lower output level than my DAC. I have the volume control up about halfway (1:00) when I listen to phono but it's close to the bottom (7:00) when I listen to a CD. That difference is just due to the different output levels of my sources.

As for your actual question, I haven't found low power amps to be able to drive speakers with 97db sensitivity at least not with all music. In my case, I have some 46 SE amps that sound much more powerful than their actual 1.25 watts output, but they don't have enough LF control with my 99db speakers and they run out of gas when I want to listen to large scale dynamic music. It's not that they sound bad, it's just that they don't get any louder after a certain point and transients become soft. For that reason I use my more powerful push-pull amps almost exclusively. My main amps use PP 6L6G outputs and they only have about 8 watts but they are very dynamic and I never have the sense they are running out of steam. I also have some 50 watt PP KT-120 amps but they do not have any more control and they are not more dynamic than the 6L6G amps.

It's difficult to generalize about how much power is needed for a given speaker. Different amps can sound more powerful or less powerful than their rated power suggests, and of course different people listen to different types of music and at different volumes.

 

RE: "40% on the dial", posted on December 12, 2021 at 21:59:15
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 9896
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 In the context of this discussion, the most important characteristic of any speaker used with a low-power, full-range amp is acoustic efficiency below 50 Hz. That's the portion of the spectrum most likely to cause clipping when the electronics runs out of steam. It's also an area where most speakers begin to roll off and where room reinforcement becomes more necessary. My current amp outputs about 3W per channel, but volume levels in my living room are more than adequate with most types of music. Bass is extended, and it can really pound the listener at frequencies so low, they can't actually be heard.

The trick to this (and I admit to achieving it accidentally) was the use of a large, rigid ported enclosure mated to a high efficiency, short-throw woofer with an Fs well under 30 Hz. In addition, I placed the tuned ports near the floor at the rear of the cabinets, and this energy, which extends to the low 20s, couples to the room in a way I have seldom experienced.

My point is that it can be done - and without the expense of esoteric bass horns - but everything has to be synergistic and capable of contributing to this result. If you can accomplish this, a few watts will go a long way.


 

RE: Can I get by with 2 watts? Used my Dbs meter, posted on December 13, 2021 at 13:21:40
catbert242000@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 268
Location: Puerto Rico
Joined: April 17, 2006
 As a follow up; I put a decibel meter (NIOSH SLM) on my phone and used it to measure the sound level in the listening room at a normal, slightly loud IMO listening level - the meter reading ranged about 70 -80 dbl at 2 meters..

The volume dial on the amp was about 25 - 30%.

If the speaker sensitivity is 96/97, what does that say about how many watts are running? Less than 1 watt? is that possible?

Is there any way to measure the power draw with a multi meter?

 

RE: Can I get by with 2 watts? Used my Dbs meter, posted on December 13, 2021 at 14:37:57
Paul Joppa
Industry Professional

Posts: 7271
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001
 The main difficulty is that the short-term average sound level (which is measured by sound level meters and VU meters) is much lower than the instantaneous peaks. This difference is called headroom, and can run around 14dB for well-recorded music, and 20dB for movie sound and audiophile recordings.

If the speaker is 97dB per watt, and the sound level meter is at 77dB on peaks, then the average power being used is 20dB less than a watt, or 0.01 watts. If you add in 20dB for headroom, you are up to 1 watt.

There are a lot of assumptions buried in the above analysis, and the variation in individual cases is very large - at least +/-10dB. In practice,something like 102dB peak capability seems to work for most people, most of the time. That would be a bit over 3 watts into a 97dB speaker. Your mileage will almost certainly vary ...

 

Thanks Paul. nt, posted on December 13, 2021 at 16:56:10
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17031
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 .
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

Sound quality or sound quantity?, posted on December 14, 2021 at 19:01:24
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 A few years ago I decided that it made more sense to buy separates since the preamplifier is more important to the sound quality than the power amps. Get a really good preamplifier that you love.

Then on the power amplifier side, you have options where you can tailor the sound somewhat to the music you are playing.

I auditioned the 2 watts per channel Audio Note Paladin amplifier with Audio Note J/Lx speakers (90-93db) sensitive depending on if you have them in corners etc.
I loved the sound quality at moderate levels. However, the combo ran into trouble with more complex music at louder levels.

Moving up the power chain to the 211 Jinro and Einstein's power amplifiers and other more powerful amplifiers is that while all of those could play the more complex stuff better - they all lacked the mythical fairy dust magic that the Paladin had on vocals and lower level listening.

The 45 Paladin does what it does and it is not matched by anything else that I have heard - regardless of price. This is pretty amazing when you consider the Paladin, by AN standards, is an affordable amplifier.

The advantage of separates is that you can buy multiple power amplifiers and if you want that Grip/Slam/boom/crush bombastic (usually unrefined but big) sound you can buy some 200-watt power amps (SS, Push/pull, OTL, Class D) sound that is perfectly fine but keep the SET amps for their Magic on the small stuff where those other amplifiers (regardless of price) lose their lustre.

It's soon to be 2022 - you can have it all for pretty cheap these days. Ie; you don't have to choose one amp that tries to do everything. Instead, you can play off their strengths.

 

The best preamp is no preamp , posted on December 14, 2021 at 23:44:05
andy evans
Audiophile

Posts: 4314
Joined: October 20, 2000
 "the preamplifier is more important to the sound quality than the power amps. Get a really good preamplifier that you love."

You don't need an active preamp except for vinyl based systems. DACs are rated for a standard 2v output which is what is required to drive a standard amplifier to full output.

Why would you ever want to add un unneeded active stage which just gives you more gain that then has to be attenuated, all of which compromises the signal? A stepped attenuator or TVC sure, but these are passive.

If it's tone and timbre you are after, then get that right in the amplifier itself. Too many people think that "adding a tube" as a preamp gives you "that tube sound". If you want "tube sound" get a tube amplifier. Or use a DAC with a tube output stage.

Preamps have a long history but that's what it is in 2021 - history.

 

perfect world, posted on December 15, 2021 at 03:18:56
Story
Audiophile

Posts: 9319
Location: NJ
Joined: December 11, 2000
 don't assume a perfect signal in the first place. People don't listen to perfect mastering's and recordings. Absolute recordings are pitifully rare. And perfect systems? There's always some kind of objection or criticism from someone whether it's a system or a live performance. If you want reference go to live events and try not be obsessed with obtaining perfection, just try to enjoy it or get rid of it. The industry just loves it when you are "upgrading". There are plenty of rather great components nowadays.

This is not directed at you, I'm waking up this morning



 

RE: The best preamp is no preamp , posted on December 15, 2021 at 04:20:12
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 My main listening is vinyl. Regardless, I never said one had to choose a tube-based preamp just to find whatever his favourite happens to be - passive, active, some way to control the volume etc that's up to him.






 

RE: The best preamp is no preamp , posted on December 15, 2021 at 05:16:55
deathtube 667
 "the preamplifier is more important to the sound quality than the power amps. Get a really good preamplifier that you love."

For line level, a preamp is not needed unless you want to experiment with separate power stage only amplifiers.

DT667

 

The best preamp is no preamp ?, posted on December 15, 2021 at 10:07:46
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 In a perfect world, agreed.

The best is STILL a TVC connected to an superb gain device... ie transformer coupled 8608. There is no argument a TVC is the finest approach to a volume control, BUT there is still a loss of punch/snap/attack in a TVC with zero gain. I have used many too many configurations with a TVC and no gain. Whether 2 volts or .5. there is a loss... a missing element in the compleat audio experience. You are welcome to disagree... and you know why? Because we all hear differently, moreover if we just stay with numbers; distortion is 10 times greater in any dome or cone vs Horns and most panels. Does this mean some people LIKE certain speaker distortion? Err, correct. And yet I respect the fact many LIKE that. The proof is most listen through cones and domes and argue over distortion in tube amps when the room is the most important factor. Room, Speaker, Pre-amplifier, amp... in that order. Art Dudley heard what I heard and I do not agree with a lot of Art's views. A line source may be the best approach to replicate full on Symphonic bombast. A line source panel is what Arnold Nudell built for himself throughout his engineering career... a devout Symphony lover. Horses of Courses?, You bet.

I miss elements of my Quads despite the Fuzz I heard.
I miss my Magnepan Tympany 1D's for that outstanding lower midrange upper bass punch that has never been equaled. JBl 4315's come close.

Everything is a compromise. Everything crashes by design as my aural memory is distorted by TIME. Some of us can actually hear the signal re-inserted timing delay utilized via global feedback. Many cannot.

That is fine.
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

Gee Paul, that dovetails with my experience, bloody math never lies.~nT, posted on December 15, 2021 at 10:14:44
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 ~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: The best preamp is no preamp , posted on December 15, 2021 at 16:22:38
RPMac
Audiophile

Posts: 370
Location: So. Mississippi
Joined: January 3, 2005
 Three stages makes all DHT easier. To some, all DHT is better.

 

You Need to Find a Way to Try It........, posted on December 16, 2021 at 02:23:19
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37201
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 The efficiency seems borderline for two watts..... It all depends on what volume levels you listen to......

If you're not into "rock" volume levels, you should be good..... Otherwise you might need four or five watts for those speakers.

 

RE: The best preamp is no preamp , posted on December 16, 2021 at 02:28:02
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37201
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 I'd agree if you use primarily analog sources......

If you primarily use digital sources, the pre will knock down some RFI..... Each person's situation is different..... Like anything else, one should try it, before committing to it.

 

RE: Can I get by with 2 watts?, posted on December 16, 2021 at 06:03:15
Larry I
Audiophile

Posts: 2220
Location: No. Va.
Joined: June 28, 2000
 For the kind of efficiencies you mentioned, it is a bit "iffy" as to 2 watts working out. It would really depend on how much you are willing to compromise on maximum sound level and accepting some sound quality issues when the music gets modestly loud. Most tube amps are optimistically rated, so something that is supposedly a 2 watt amp will probably be struggling at something a little less than 1 watt.

I own three low-powered tube amps--two are pushpull and one is a parallel single-ended amp. The most powerful is the parallel single-ended amp which is rated at 6.5 watts. For my taste and listening practice, all of them have adequate power. Where power limitations seem to show up the most is with classical, large scale choral works. At crescendos, sometimes the voices seem a little bit muddled and sound levels will peak and not get louder at the rate they should (compression). My speakers are 99 db/w efficient.

 

RE: Can I get by with 2 watts?, posted on December 16, 2021 at 08:13:56
deathtube 667
 "Altec's Valencia 97 db. 8 ohm Main #1"

If the internal speaker wiring and crossover has enough "transfer efficiency" , then 2W SE tube power might be enough.

Some of this depends on your listening habits.

DT667





 

RE: Sound quality or sound quantity?, posted on December 18, 2021 at 09:05:24
bouncy ball
Audiophile

Posts: 1214
Location: British Columbia
Joined: July 26, 2003
 totally agree with you.

The slam of bass drum is exciting but the ability to reproduce the micro dynamic of the bow attacking the string is even more intriguing.

Yes, 45 is special.

 

And it's not either or ................., posted on December 18, 2021 at 11:47:41
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 17905
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 If you Bi-Amp.... SS on the Bass, 45 On the Top.



 

RE: Can I get by with 2 watts?, posted on December 18, 2021 at 15:17:57
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17031
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "transfer efficiency"

Do you mean this?

I can't find that phrase used in the context of audio electronics except by Dennis. All other references are wireless battery charging or paint related.

You do understand that that is just a term that DF made up, right?

https://spectrum.ieee.org/boosting-the-transfer-efficiency-of-wireless-power-transfer-systems

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Can I get by with 2 watts?, posted on December 18, 2021 at 15:43:47
deathtube 667
 "You do understand that that is just a term that DF made up, right?"

DF builds the most powerful 1W SE 2A3 amplifier in the history of audio.

How did he do it?

Transfer efficiency per DF's application is a key concept.

Learning from a "master builder" is never a bad thing.

DT667

 

+1 nt, posted on December 19, 2021 at 08:33:12
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17031
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 .
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

A watt is a watt!, posted on December 19, 2021 at 16:41:30
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3634
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 Wattage is a measurement of power. Therefore if an amplifier measures a watt, then it's a watt. How can a watt be anymore powerful then it measures?

 

None of those speakers has 97 dB below 100 Hz , posted on December 19, 2021 at 18:23:32
Wojciech
Audiophile

Posts: 3805
Joined: June 23, 2009
 and Valencia is such a miserable speaker I don't know it deserves to be counted as one. 30W min with tone control or you just want to believe that it works and there is no one in your audio circle to tell you it'a a BS. Volume control position has no meaning. Diana Krall and other girls work fine with 0.1W in my experience so there is no need for more wattage if you're in that camp. If you don't bi-amp and your room is bigger than typical Euro concrete bunker 30W SET is a minimum to feel at ease. This is my latest experience-
40W SET on 100dB from 100Hz and up in lossy medium US 450 sq ft room. 45 Set is mostly a guilty pleasure if you can afford it. You need a preamp to control your 20 sources and add color to your sound. It is an essential element of an audio chain. Too bad they mostly make ones without tone controls these days.

 

RE: None of those speakers has 97 dB below 100 Hz , posted on December 19, 2021 at 19:45:26
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 9896
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
 Yep. Some of the most fundamental concepts regarding speaker systems that we all knew in the '60s and '70 seem to have been completely abandoned in recent years. I think it must be the general dumbing down that occurs when a specific technology matures.




 

RE: A watt is a watt!, posted on December 20, 2021 at 08:34:03
deathtube 667
 "How can a watt be anymore powerful then it measures?"

How can a 1W SE 2A3 sound "subjectively" more powerful than a 400W solid state amplifier?

DF has be discussing this thing called "transfer efficiency" for years.


DT667



 

RE: A watt is a watt!, posted on December 20, 2021 at 09:36:16
kyle
Audiophile

Posts: 1822
Location: London Ontario
Joined: September 29, 1999
 I think you mean that DF made up that terminology years ago and hasn't stopped trying to get people to believe it.

 

Reminds me of a 1970s Sears Catalog!, posted on December 20, 2021 at 12:37:56
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3634
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
 Cheap console stereo rated at 600 watts IPP per channel.

Instantaneous Peak Power!

 

RE: A watt is a watt!, posted on December 20, 2021 at 13:18:16
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17031
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 "DF has be discussing this thing called "transfer efficiency" for years."

And you believe him?

That makes you look a little kooky.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: The best preamp is no preamp ?, posted on December 20, 2021 at 15:54:16
MylesJ
Audiophile

Posts: 1228
Location: Oregon Coast
Joined: October 25, 2001
Contributor
  Since: April 4, 2002
 Cleantimes I agree with your statement. "A TVC is the finest approach to a volume control, BUT there is still a loss of punch/snap/attack in a TVC." I'm on my fourth passive now. I rebuilt a Bent Audio S&B passive because I thought it would be able to get past that loss. It didn't. When re-wired as an auto-former, it did. I think you would enjoy hearing a good auto-former volume control. You can use one as a replacement for a pot if the equipment has the space.

 

RE: A watt is a watt!, posted on December 20, 2021 at 23:48:08
Paul Barker
Audiophile

Posts: 908
Location: North Yorkshire
Joined: November 17, 2002
 In London on Tottenham Court Rd in The '70's as a teenager I would druel over the amaising statistics of the amplifiers. Took me many years to realise it was all lies! Some people havent learned that to this day.

 

RE: A watt is a watt!, posted on December 21, 2021 at 13:17:03
kyle
Audiophile

Posts: 1822
Location: London Ontario
Joined: September 29, 1999
 And where have you been for the last 5 years Mr Barker? I recalled reading some of your posts from long ago and had to check your history.

 

RE: A watt is a watt!, posted on December 22, 2021 at 01:06:09
Paul Barker
Audiophile

Posts: 908
Location: North Yorkshire
Joined: November 17, 2002
 The trials of life friend.

 

RE: A watt is a watt!, posted on December 22, 2021 at 01:18:56
Paul Barker
Audiophile

Posts: 908
Location: North Yorkshire
Joined: November 17, 2002
 I must say its a filip to my state of mind to see so many of the old names still holding up the banner and giving great advise as they always did. Wont name them but really feels like home from home. I came in here because the majority people in UK I mix with in these matters are so far away from from my ways that have never changed from my beginnings that noone replies to my posts. There has been a massive dropoff in practical knowledge, or interest in the things still being discussed here. I even fear now for the forthcoming loss of value in vintage valves as the old guys drop off their purches, the youngsters are building class D amps, and our stocks of valves chokes and transformers will be loaded into skips after our funerals. But the main issue is nobody wants to bounce ideas together with me. It was like home from home just checking in here for ages.

 

RE: Can I get by with 2 watts?, posted on December 22, 2021 at 07:32:41
rage
Audiophile

Posts: 781
Joined: December 17, 2010
 DT-

Dennis builds a 3W amplifier. ;)

 

RE: Can I get by with 2 watts?, posted on December 22, 2021 at 08:01:41
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17031
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
According to Dennis his direct coupled 2a3 amplifiers are rated at 1 watt and should not be operated at a power level beyond that.


Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: The best preamp is no preamp ?, posted on December 22, 2021 at 14:19:20
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 McIntosh knew what they were doing all those years ago with there SS amps. I am currently restoring am MX 110 to the "9's" ... mostly polystyrene and polycarbonate caps as there is NO ROOM to add any exotics, although I have replaced 4 electrolytics with film. I digress... I currently use an ARC Reference I {better than the 2/3/5 to me} and it has 6 db IC gain ... 12 db XLR and is adequate. IN my opinion, all CD players and streamers should come with a gain control {a good auto-former is not cheap and I don't expect mainstream audio to man up} to even out all the crap that these guys design. Your suggestion has merit and I will need to ponder a design... I have only built a multitude of amplifiers and never built what you have stated. I have pondered an 8608 direct coupled to a TVC however.


The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

Hmm, transfer efficiency? Simple... Active crossover.~nT, posted on December 22, 2021 at 14:27:19
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 ~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: "40% on the dial", posted on December 23, 2021 at 07:00:25
rage
Audiophile

Posts: 781
Joined: December 17, 2010
 TK,

Will you tell us more about your speakers? What drivers? Cabinet volume?

Also love the post from Paul above re "about 3 watts"... (all my amps are about 3 watts!)

 

RE: How much do you want it?, posted on December 23, 2021 at 09:33:06
catbert242000@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 268
Location: Puerto Rico
Joined: April 17, 2006
 Ha, you're right, the neighbors don't complain. I live on a open beach and have no neighbors in either direction. ;-).

How many watts is your "45 Amp"? The MP 301 runs the Altec's and EV's extremely well, I do have a sub, but don't use/need it with the music system. The mains go to 30hz.

The Daytons are exterior speakers, and they are exposed to ocean salt air, indirect rain, wind, etc. yet they have withstood the ravages of tropical weather.

But I gota say, even with only 6.5 watts, those cheap, low efficient Daytons will play much louder than I ever want to listen. (already suffer from some hearing loss - don't need to exacerbate my condition)

I am shopping for more efficient exterior speakers (perhaps some Klipsch or other), looking for recommendations.

 

RE: A watt is a watt!, posted on December 23, 2021 at 10:45:09
deafbykhorns
Audiophile

Posts: 1064
Location: Florida
Joined: October 17, 2003
 Maybe its a watt at 20hz???
A watt at 1Khz most likely won't produce a watt at 20hz on a tube amp.

 

RE: "40% on the dial", posted on December 23, 2021 at 10:55:17
catbert242000@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 268
Location: Puerto Rico
Joined: April 17, 2006
 My Altec's are built with 416A woofers and a 811B horn w 801 driver - 8 ohm. The cabinets are custom boxes, similar to original Valencias, but larger with ports on the front. Volume for each speaker is about 10.13 cubic ft.

Cross overs built to 800hz. The horns w the 801 drivers are original. I have considered upgrading the drivers, but the sound is really very good with the current equipment.


 

With headphones-yes; with speakers-probably not, posted on December 23, 2021 at 19:52:38
Donald North
Manufacturer

Posts: 1295
Joined: February 8, 2001
 Most speakers lie about their efficiency

A 2W no-feedback tube amp is probably 3-5% THD while achieving that power spec.

Of course, the proof is in the sound. Get a 45 amp and give it a go.

 

RE: With headphones-yes; with speakers-probably not, posted on December 23, 2021 at 21:31:39
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 Hi Donald - This is a bit off-topic but I'd like to thank you for your succinct answer to why your amps don't have balanced inputs but have balanced outputs.

I notice your headphone amps have universal taps so if one buys it with say 220v and moves to the US can they be easily changed back to 120v?

Lastly, I assume headphone amps are quite quiet in operation so am I wrong in thinking they can serve as a quality preamplifier?

cheers,
Richard

 

RE: "40% on the dial", posted on December 24, 2021 at 05:30:30
rage
Audiophile

Posts: 781
Joined: December 17, 2010
 Your Altec's sound very nice! I personally believe you will be happy with 2 watts.

It helps to have a higher power rig for those times when 2 watts isn't enough - but I do believe you'll enjoy the Altec's at that power level. Certainly you've got the right cabinet size for the driver.

 

RE: With headphones-yes; with speakers-probably not, posted on December 24, 2021 at 08:09:18
Donald North
Manufacturer

Posts: 1295
Joined: February 8, 2001
 Thanks, I do offer the option of a balanced input on the Stellaris.

Yes, I can reconfigure from 220 to 120 or vice versa.

Regarding dual purposes, it depends on the amp. Some have preamp and headphone outputs; with mine I designed them for headphone-only duties with specific gain and output transformers.

 

RE: "40% on the dial", posted on December 24, 2021 at 14:52:18
catbert242000@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 268
Location: Puerto Rico
Joined: April 17, 2006
 Well, for the time being, I will stick with my current rig. I am always looking for my next amp, but for now The 6.5 watts is fine for general use. If I need more horsepower, the SS Harmon/Kardon is 110.




 

RE: "40% on the dial", posted on December 24, 2021 at 15:03:11
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22519
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 A LOT of space between 6.5 and 110 watts!

If you want to stay with tubes?
Modern takes on classics like the Dynaco Stereo 70 can be had in 35x2 or 60x2 with a wide selection of output tubes. Even available as KITS! How Retro!


Too much is never enough

 

RE: A watt is a watt!, posted on December 26, 2021 at 07:00:01
PakProtector
Audiophile

Posts: 12338
Joined: May 14, 2002
 Oh my...

I can put a Watt into the air. There is no way one of these fantasy amps that puts 1 Watt into the voice coil terminals is going to deliver that.

I assume at some point you will discover you have been led around by the nose. Probably not today, or even tomorrow, but at some point you will.
cheers,
Douglas

Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

 

RE: The best preamp is no preamp , posted on December 26, 2021 at 13:58:11
PakProtector
Audiophile

Posts: 12338
Joined: May 14, 2002
 It is easy; the momo-blocks do not have the gain by themselves. The linestage has only jus' enough plus a little. It drives the low-ish input stage resistor 'cause that sounds more natural. Lower is better until it can't be driven.

Also, having multiple volume controls is a PITA I no longer feal like dealing with... :)
cheers,
Douglas

Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

 

RE: A watt is a watt!, posted on December 27, 2021 at 17:05:08
grindstone
Audiophile

Posts: 182
Location: GMT -6
Joined: August 10, 2008
 Count one more person super-happy to see that name posting. May all the trials be in the rear-view mirror!

 

RE: A watt is a watt!, posted on December 28, 2021 at 01:29:01
Paul Barker
Audiophile

Posts: 908
Location: North Yorkshire
Joined: November 17, 2002
 Like

 

RE: None of those speakers has 97 dB below 100 Hz , posted on December 28, 2021 at 04:11:49
Paul Barker
Audiophile

Posts: 908
Location: North Yorkshire
Joined: November 17, 2002
 In the 60's and 70's the charts and stats were printed lies.

The man who said to you, when youre faced with a room purposed to sell speakers, "you have to listen to the speakers in youre home was the one who didnt sell on lies.

 

RE: A watt is a watt!, posted on December 28, 2021 at 05:53:43
grindstone
Audiophile

Posts: 182
Location: GMT -6
Joined: August 10, 2008
 An ASCII like!!! Hah!

See--all is still right with the world (as long as they can keep a BBS running)

:)

 

RE: None of those speakers has 97 dB below 100 Hz , posted on December 28, 2021 at 08:48:46
Paul Barker
Audiophile

Posts: 908
Location: North Yorkshire
Joined: November 17, 2002
 In the 60's and 70's the charts and stats were printed lies.

The man who said to you, when youre faced with a room purposed to sell speakers, "you have to listen to the speakers in youre home was the one who didnt sell on lies.

 

Jadis is the only company I know of that produced an amp that could drive 1 ohm load-nT, posted on January 21, 2022 at 13:15:59
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7510
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 !
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: Can I get by with 2 watts?, posted on February 14, 2022 at 00:19:23
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2480
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
 The trick on the Valencia is that
these drivers are OLD.

What this means is that one must carefully
evaluate all of the drivers and make sure the
Alnico magnets have original strength-- *they
won't".

Cabinets must be carefully analyzed for air-leaks.

The crossover network requires new capacitors throughout--
use the best you can find.

Silver wiring will help a bunch. If you're on a
budget, use silver-plated Mil-Spec wire. Woofer gets 4
12ga. leads-- a parallel pair for each side. EXACTLY EQUAL
lengths-- all 4.

Midrange/tweeter gets 14 or 16ga. single leads. Mil-Spec.
Your choice, they sound different.

The spring terminals on Altec & GPA woofers are bogus--
VERY bad connector. Remove the spring and its red or
black colored terminal top-- remove the terminal top also.

Tighten-up the remaining brass slug, which is bright-plated.
In order to do this, it MUST be held tightly so it can't turn,
or you will wreck the flexible woofer-cone wiring, and maybe
even tear-up the woofer cone.

Once this is done, file the post flat, and clean-- no more
than you have to. Now, solder your woofer cable onto the slug, being
VERY careful to not apply too much heat, or for too long.

Either a large solder-gun, or huge soldering iron is used
to do this, so you'll have minimum time while heat is being applied.
You want this as instant as possible, but the connection
must be solid and robust.

NOW-- if anyone you know is complaining about a Valencia--
he's beyond audio help or his speakers are a mess.-- they're
excellent if in good shape.

-Dennis-





 

RE: Can I get by with 2 watts?, posted on February 14, 2022 at 00:35:29
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2480
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
 The term was in common use at MSU, and Cal-Tech
engineering departments when I visited those
people.

It's just another thing that has been censored
from our libraries. Today, they teach what makes them
money, not so much what allows individual
understanding.

Can't have the old, real engineers influencing the
designers of mass-market platforms. I believe the
idea is to keep each employee ignorant of what the
other is doing-- that way you can design parts of a
machine that nobody understands the whole uses of.

If that sounds a lot like modern medicine, where
the good Dr. doesn't know fully== what he's doing to
the victim-- well, that's where we're at now.

I would like to know how Nathan Stubblefield's
free power & heat systems worked. Think anyone can
find out all about them? Not a chance! That stuff is buried
in the past-- modern power systems are used to charge
you the max, and control your entire household just as soon as
it's all installed to do that.

You might want to consider Nathan's methods, and how
he got "transfer efficiency" that was obviously very high.
You might need it when you're earning $3000 a month and your
power bill is $5000 a month.

-Dennis-


 

RE: Can I get by with 2 watts?, posted on February 14, 2022 at 00:44:26
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2480
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
 You gotta understand! These folks don't want concepts-- NEVER!

What they want is facts & figures that they can download
from the Internet, and "prove" something.

It's a result of Television-- don't think for yourself, let
the T.V. or the Internet "prove" it!.

Then, you have it made! You're RIGHT even if you're WRONG!

This era of illusions is getting long in the tooth now.
PERFORMANCE will have to take it's place. Ask any Canadian Trucker!

-Dennis-

 

RE: Can I get by with 2 watts?, posted on February 14, 2022 at 00:50:21
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2480
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
 You can run it wherever you want, you can't
hurt it- it's pretty Bulletproof.

For best sound, you run it where the heavy-duty
power supply controls the dynamics, not the output watts.

At the very best, what this requires is a speaker that
has full dynamics at a watt or less. If it can't fully
fill a large room at loud levels and maintain full
bandwidth and dynamics, then you have the wrong speaker.

-Dennis-

 

RE: A watt is a watt!, posted on February 14, 2022 at 00:56:08
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 2480
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
 That would be continuous power-rated where
a watt is indeed a watt.

Speakers, however, don't operate on continuous
watts, they run on impulse peaks.

If you want to fully experience that, then the
amplifier power supply must be ultra-fast-- with
minimal recharge time and density, and minimal
storage of energy. Both contribute to clean
dynamics that are fully in-tune with music.

-Dennis-


 

RE: Can I get by with 2 watts?, posted on March 15, 2022 at 22:52:25
DHT 4 ME
Audiophile

Posts: 563
Location: Las Vegas
Joined: November 9, 2005
 Had 300b w 6 watts on 108db horns always wanted more bass dynamics
Using 21w from GM-70 on 98db open baffles and slightly miss the slam of a 100w GaN amp I also own.
Is less power enough for room filling volume, yes, but that elusive snap and presence of more power never materializes to give that live event impression for me.

Robert
www.Robert-Park.com

 

Page processed in 0.070 seconds.

[ Top Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2023, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]