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whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??

72.211.138.16

Posted on March 3, 2017 at 14:42:20
used-hifi
Audiophile

Posts: 529
Location: Surprise AZ
Joined: March 18, 2003
I am starting this Thread because I have found some interesting things with different wiring and awg's in my amplifier.

I have used both heavy awg and small awg wire, My recent results may not agree with yours so I wont post my findings yet.

I feel this is a most important sometimes missed aspect to your SE amplifier.

Things are not always as they seem :)

Lawrence

 

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In my direct-coupled 45 amp....some observations, posted on March 3, 2017 at 17:42:30
coronadope
Audiophile

Posts: 82
Joined: October 31, 2007
The direct couple run from the 7B4 to the 45 sounds more detailed with a single run of .22 gauge silver than it did with the same wire paralleled with two TCSS.

On the 45's filament going from three parallel TCSS to a single run of TCSS was an eye-opener, more pratt, detail, dynamics and strangely to me, better articulated bass. Same findings on the filament's center tap lead.

When I built the thing I replaced the stock B+ and plate leads on the Electraprint output transformers with three paralleled runs of TCSS.
And thinking I was on a roll based on the above findings, I snipped out two runs of the TCSS. OMG! Big mistake! Sound was flat, thin, anemic, and lacking in bass. What a bloody A pain that was to remove the transformers and put the three runs of TCSS back!

So: It's not so much the gauge and quality of the wire but where in the circuit the wire is.

On a side note: on the Electraprint website, Jack advised to NOT twist the high voltage secondary leads. Anyone care to comment on that?


 

RE: In my direct-coupled 45 amp....some observations, posted on March 3, 2017 at 19:09:19
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9706
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005



Hello Coronadope,

In 20-20 hindsight, its a shame you didn't just unsolder two of the three paralleled TCSS from the plate and B+ leads, going to the primary, and listen to that first. Oh well, I may have done the same. Do you use three TCSS on the OPT XFR's secondary ?? With the OPT XFR's step-down, that is a high current path, and it may be beneficial there.

TCSS is nicely made multi strand copper wire, I think in a teflon jacket. 19 AWG as I recall. Decent stuff. Its seven strands of 5N copper, three different gauges.

We have been playing with Mil Spec M22759/11 lately, and I just layed-in a supply of various AWGs to try out. If you would send me your address, I will be happy to send you some, just for me to find out what you hear !!

In the past two or so years, I have been routinely using DOUBLE 12 AWG of this Mil Spec wire ( copper multi-stranded, silver plated, teflon jacket ) into high current areas of my amp. As it turns out, I was WRONG to do so, ...so heavily. Although the double 12 AWG played with fuller dynamic contrasting, too much of this wire will lose the highs.

Under the advice of Mr. Dennis Fraker, I will be using less AWG in various spots, in all my future builds, in an effort to keep the lovely highs intact. I bought about 1,600 feet of various smaller gauges of the Mil Spec wire, two weeks ago. It will be incorporated in my upcoming build of JJ 2A3-40 mono amps. Again, Coronadope, happy to send some to you, need an address.

I will let someone else comment on twisting and not twisting...these IS an audible difference I have been specifically told, for several months now.

Best wishes,

Jeff Medwin

( Too heavily wired ( my first ) SET 45 amp, as of 04-2015, shown in photo. Since then, amp has been disassembled. )

 

RE: In my direct-coupled 45 amp....some observations, posted on March 3, 2017 at 20:15:09
tube wrangler
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I think Jack is right!

Now, think about this: twisting creates partial Common-Mode shorting (lead-to-lead). It also creates more Common-Mode itself!

Now, where in your circuits would you WANT that, and where do you NOT want that?!

-Dennis-

 

RE: In my direct-coupled 45 amp....some observations, posted on March 4, 2017 at 07:09:12
SteveBrown
Audiophile

Posts: 2274
Location: Portland, OR
Joined: November 14, 2002
Hi Dennis, what thoughts on twisting things like heater wires and choke wires? I notice in some vintage amps heaters are not twisted (e.g. Leak Stereo 20).

 

RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??, posted on March 4, 2017 at 07:12:45
SteveBrown
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Posts: 2274
Location: Portland, OR
Joined: November 14, 2002
A number of years ago there was a trend in vogue to use very small gauge (like 26 IIRC) enameled copper wire. I remember listening to a rebuild of a console amp that Gary Pimm built using this and it sounded amazing. I tried to go that route but found that getting the enamel off was a real pain so I went back to Teflon coated copper. I've never done actual comparisons so I don't know if one would be better than another.

 

RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??, posted on March 4, 2017 at 08:52:15
horny
Audiophile

Posts: 724
Location: holland
Joined: October 17, 2003
I find thinner wire always better
and never parallel wire's it always sound not good for me
also parallel c's are never sound good to me
but this is my experience.

 

RE: In my direct-coupled 45 amp....some observations, posted on March 4, 2017 at 09:53:20
Stuben
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Posts: 522
Location: Guber Ohio
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Jeff,

Tight build...

Kinda off thread but ...do you take the ESR of each cap into consideration when you parallel capacitors ?

Stuben

 

RE: In my direct-coupled 45 amp....some observations, posted on March 4, 2017 at 10:09:14
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9706
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
ESR ?? No, just EAR.


Jeff

 

RE: In my direct-coupled 45 amp....some observations, posted on March 4, 2017 at 10:29:58
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

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DHT tube, or indirect? DHT-- don't twist, instead, float the wires in empty space inside chassis. Don't let them get near ANYTHING.

-D-

 

amazing, I just posted a wire question over on diy tube..... nt, posted on March 4, 2017 at 14:59:06
rockdoc
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Posts: 153
Location: Harwich MA
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nt

 

There is a way to figure this out., posted on March 5, 2017 at 09:21:42
Chip647
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Posts: 1682
Location: The South
Joined: December 24, 2012
Math.

Length of wire with resistance per inch.
DC Current
AC Current

Calculate the losses. Choose the gauge. I like solid core but it needs to be treated very carefully not to nick it.

What you will find is that short runs can use a much smaller size wire that you would think. You can get better (fru fru) wire more affordably if that floats your boat. But frankly, if you have a large audible impact from wire, you have other issues going on.

Layout and wiring techniques count more than any reasonable wire (i.e. not chinese "no nines" garbage)

 

RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??, posted on March 5, 2017 at 13:57:32
DAK
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  Since:
December 0, 0000
Ok, some inmates have posted their findings, so it is now your turn to post yours. Also please describe the amp that you did your wire experiment with. You do realize that the EEs are shaking their heads with this discussion. I try to keep an open mind and like to play with different concepts to and how these ideas work in my system.

 

RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??, posted on March 5, 2017 at 15:12:15
drlowmu
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Posts: 9706
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
Nice Post. Time for Lawrence to " cough up ".

I find, many, but not all EEs have a RIGID training, that often leads them to not consider the best solution. Their "training' and thought process, excludes some of the best possibilities and most effective solutions.

Liked you post. very honest DAK !!


Jeff medwin Drlowmu.

 

"Things are not always as they seem :)", posted on March 5, 2017 at 15:44:07
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 6016
Location: Texas
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That's particular true when it comes to quotes based on unscientific testing of an amplifier's audio qualities. The fallibility of audio memory as it relates to virtually every characteristic of an amplifier has been demonstrated repeatedly over the last 50 or more years. Even in solidly scientific AB testing, listeners are typically unable to discern exactly what has changed, or whether the change was for the better. In any event, the voice of ignorance always rears its ugly head in threads like these. Barring intervention by knowledgeable authorities - none of which are paid to do so or likely to be otherwise interested in such amateurish discussions - faulty conclusions nearly always rule the day.



--------------------------
Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.

 

RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??, posted on March 5, 2017 at 17:44:24
used-hifi
Audiophile

Posts: 529
Location: Surprise AZ
Joined: March 18, 2003
Alright, So some of you know of my experimental GM70 Amplifier breadbord

3 specific areas I changed wiring

RK cathode wiring

RC coupling wiring

LC coupling wiring (output cap to output transformer)

I did this, one area at a time, The wire I replaced is Mil spec teflon insulated wire like jeff uses but smaller 14 awg that i doubled up, The new wire is 21 awg doubled up but SOLID core! its a copper wire with direct 24K gold plating, Insulation is unbleached cotton shoestring like.

Dynamics:

Dynamically there is a slight edge to the SOLID CORE smaller wire

Intelligibility:

There is a good amount of difference here giving the edge again to the SOLID CORE, Its just simply clearer, more realistic with proper diction(less audible distortion!) of voices, This clearer information is what I believe also gives a sense of more dynamic contrasting, but NOT forced dynamic contrasting, its clearly more dynamic and tauter bottom end but with less distortion. IMO it sounds wonderful, every spot I have used it so far.

There is quite a bit of difference here that could be for the simple fact that the solid core wire is NOT teflon coated and put into an unbleached cotton shoestring cord its free to move about.

It also just could be that the gold plated wire is better then my Mil Spec wire that I have but its possible other Mil Spec wire could be better.



Lawrence

 

RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??, posted on March 5, 2017 at 21:41:28
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9706
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
Thanks for sharing.

I have been told by Mr. Dennis Fraker, to cut down the mass / size of my Mil Spec wire dramatically, so as to "retain the highs."

About a week ago, I bought some 1600 feet of the Mil Spec wire in smaller gauges than the 12 and 14 I have used, ( sometimes even doubled up ). I bought a lot of 16 AWG and some 18 AWG, with a goal of retaining the highs, using single runs always, of smaller size wire.

I can send you some to play with, be my pleasure, plus we will both learn new things. That I was " over-wired", was told to me very plainly by DF last month.

He works hard to retain the highs in his SET amp, like no one else I know in audio, - harpsichords, etc, and he gets it. I never did, but will make changes he suggested to me - next month with the 2A3 JJ monoblocks' build.

Jeff

 

A lot more involved than wire gauge, posted on March 6, 2017 at 04:32:58
Salectric
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Wire gauge affects the sound but it is only one factor. Stranded versus solid. Silver versus copper. Teflon versus PVC versus cotton. All of these are important to sound quality.

The 12g Mil-Spec wire mentioned in this thread is unacceptable to me for full range applications since it rolls off the highs even when used singly.

The best sounding wire I have tried (so far) is Audio Note silver Litz. It seems to combine the best qualities of solid core and stranded wires, and it has excellent bass despite a small effective gauge.

 

RE: A lot more involved than wire gauge, posted on March 6, 2017 at 08:22:52
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9706
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
AGREE. Good post !!

You are 100% correct about single 12 AWG Mil Spec ( m22759/11) rolling off highs inside amplifiers. See my post below. I will use it on the primary of my Power Transformers, from now on, but NOT "all over", sometimes doubled -up, as I was doing. Wanna retain those highs. Have stock now of the same Mil Spec wire in higher gauges, 14, 16 and 18, to try out next .

The 12 AWG can be used, nicely, amp to crossover, because that is a higher current situation, as the Output XFR steps the signal down.

Besides internally, my new-to-be-built monos, I will be rewiring my crossover, and path to ALTEC 802Ds from 14 AWG to 16 or maybe even 18 AWG next !!

We all experiment and learn. Thanks for posting, re-confirmed my journey .

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: A lot more involved than wire gauge, posted on March 6, 2017 at 08:40:25
used-hifi
Audiophile

Posts: 529
Location: Surprise AZ
Joined: March 18, 2003
I agree with most everything you have said, I would like to add that IMO I think the solid core wire is better over all in an amplifier, There is a togetherness a singular coherency that solid core wire posses, compared to the somewhat smeared and bloomed bottom end stranded wire posses, very noticeable in my 89db 3 way speakers :)


Lawrence

 

RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??, posted on March 6, 2017 at 10:22:41
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 1647
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
Wire, like everything else, is use-specific as regards whether
it is best for a given situation, bandwidth requirement, pulsed
conditions and length.

I use combinations of all kinds of wires, some solid, some
multistrand, as required by the application.

I use bare wire whenever I can. Perhaps one of the best
tech improvements in wire for audio came about when Siltech
(others now do it also) began adding a tiny amount of gold
to their silver base metal. Silver is a better conductor, but
gold can fill-in tiny voids in silver's matrix, making the
composite a better conductor yet. With metals this good, one
can obsolete the "solid VS Multistrand" contest.

Either can do the same thing. How is that done? The silver
won't tarnish with the gold in it, so multistrand becomes
just like a solid conductor.

Advantage-- if any? Multistrand has less of a tendency to
"tune"-- according to length and diameter. Music is wideband
(relatively-- it's not R.F.!)-- so a wire that has a full
musical presentation is what people will pay for.

There is an argument that all this is silly-- any good wire
can easily pass music's total bandwidth, so why buy better wire?

It's because that bandwidth encompasses many different
bandwidths, all happening both at once, and in different
time references simultaneously. What is desired is a wire
that doesn't delay musical transient "A" while trying to
pass musical transient "B" at the same time, and at different
times. This is a dynamic energies in motion problem, not
one of fixed, calculable values.

It's just like everything else, use what works for your
application.

-Dennis-

 

RE: A lot more involved than wire gauge, posted on March 6, 2017 at 12:19:39
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 6016
Location: Texas
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"The 12g Mil-Spec wire mentioned in this thread is unacceptable to me for full range applications since it rolls off the highs even when used singly."

Nothing about the physical properties of 12 ga wire indicates that this should occur at audio freqencies. What degree of attenuation have you measured?



--------------------------
Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.

 

RE: A lot more involved than wire gauge, posted on March 6, 2017 at 12:26:26
used-hifi
Audiophile

Posts: 529
Location: Surprise AZ
Joined: March 18, 2003
Tk let's leave this for the subjective only NO measuring can measure what we hear so for cripes sake already

SUBJECTIVE ONLY!!!!!!

 

;-), posted on March 6, 2017 at 12:44:34
richardl
Audiophile

Posts: 3225
Joined: September 5, 2002
Be ready for those strange answers.

 

RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??, posted on March 6, 2017 at 15:09:15
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 12173
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002



Even though the signal in the wire of an audio amplifier is made up of many different signals, they have been mixed together and have become one composite signal.

At any given moment the amplitude of that signal is singular.

You said,

"It's because that bandwidth encompasses many different
bandwidths, all happening both at once, and in different
time references simultaneously."

That is not true in any way. There is only one signal. There is no "both".

You said,

"a wire delaying musical transient "A" while trying to
pass musical transient "B" at the same time"

There is only one transient at a time. At any single point in time there is only one signal amplitude. Not two.

There is only one signal (per channel). Period!


Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

Subjective Analysis, posted on March 6, 2017 at 16:02:37
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 6016
Location: Texas
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I'm fine with your subjective analysis, as long as you include the statement that it's "what I think I hear." Alternately, you could note this lack of frequency response is only an unverified opinion, and that your hearing hasn't been professionally tested to determine your ability to discern frequency aberrations with complex musical material. Without those qualifications (or something similar), your statement that 12 ga wire degrades high frequency response is simply nonsense. It has no place in a discussion of the physical properties of either wire or amplifiers, and it only serves to mislead other members.



--------------------------
Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.

 

RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??, posted on March 6, 2017 at 16:09:44
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 6016
Location: Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
Wasting your breath. The post above yours is simply garbage, words strung together in a semi-cogent fashion with no tangible or authentic conceptual meaning. It's the same nonsensical format used to explain the supposed inferiority of an aluminum chassis or NOS tubes. Pure junk, and no reader should ever be tempted to take it for anything other than what it is.


--------------------------
Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.

 

OPT secondary wires.., posted on March 6, 2017 at 19:14:15
coronadope
Audiophile

Posts: 82
Joined: October 31, 2007
Hi Jeff!!

The secondary wires on that model of EP output transformer are the winding
wires. So I "let it be" and wired directly to the binding posts.

(A side note to anyone reading this far)
I've been hearing and reading some very good things about the new Pioneeer
PLX1000 direct-drive turntable. Everyone's selling them for $695 or so.

Ready to take the plunge I went down to my local Guitar Center to check one out, $695. I politely asked the salesman if he could put it on sale for me and five minutes later, after consulting with his manager, $597.99!
Sweet!

 

RE: OPT secondary wires.., posted on March 6, 2017 at 19:27:17
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9706
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
Lovely. It says " Ask and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be opened unto you. " Mr. Fraker suggests, with that table, the top-of-the line Extreme Audio SPEED Carbon Graphite mats, with a " donut " gets it to go at a whole new level. You know that money you " saved Tom ?? ".... LOL.

Jeff .... Dr.Low Mu

 

RE: A lot more involved than wire gauge, posted on March 7, 2017 at 05:08:03
morricab
Reviewer

Posts: 8445
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
Go flat instead of thin. With flat you get the advantage of thin while keeping the current carrying capability (you can go as wide as needed).

Thin works the best I have heard for internal wiring too (but it can be a pain in tight areas). My interconnects are all either thin silver foil or very thin solid core silver (one core per leg in very thin teflon sheath and twisted).

 

RE: A lot more involved than wire gauge, posted on March 7, 2017 at 08:42:58
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9706
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
Sounds interesting. I would think choices of wire, your way, is limited, and costs are high.

Jeff Medwin

 

Let's review this:, posted on March 7, 2017 at 10:03:39
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 2403
Location: So. California
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We have been told that you need 12awg to couple a 12AX7 plate to the next stage. Major improvements were cited. Dennis also claims there are "hundreds of amperes in musical peaks" at this stage in the amp.

We have been coached relentlessly on the need for double and triple runs of 19awg wire for signal path.

Now we hear this is all wrong. Too thick a wire kill the high end? What about all the claimed improvements over the years? You mean none of these people ever noticed that until now?

When is this BS going ot stop being condoned on this forum? Fortunately it's not tolerated over in DIY AUdio.

Did any of the followers consider the loss of highs may be the weak 12AX7 or equivalent driving into the output grid capacitance?

 

RE: Let's review this:, posted on March 7, 2017 at 10:34:30
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 6016
Location: Texas
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"Did any of the followers consider the loss of highs may be the weak 12AX7..."

More likely the acoustic bias of the listener. My amps always sound better after a cup of coffee. :)


--------------------------
Buy Chinese. Bury freedom.

 

RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??, posted on March 8, 2017 at 01:57:54
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 1647
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
I would add-- don't confuse gold-plated with silver/gold alloy metal.

That's two very different things.

-Dennis-

 

or a couple of brew-skis : ) nt , posted on March 8, 2017 at 14:06:04
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 2598
Joined: September 28, 2013
nt

 

RE: A lot more involved than wire gauge, posted on March 8, 2017 at 14:10:28
vinnie2
Audiophile

Posts: 2598
Joined: September 28, 2013
the only problem with solid core wire is the lighter gauges tend to work harden and break if you make too many changes to the amp. Of course, if you are one of those people who can build everything right the first time and don't make changes, it would be fine I guess. : )

 

RE: A lot more involved than wire gauge, posted on March 8, 2017 at 15:27:52
used-hifi
Audiophile

Posts: 529
Location: Surprise AZ
Joined: March 18, 2003
Vinnie it's not really A problem as, ALL metal can work harden even stranded wire


As a test count how many times you can bend solid core wire before it actually breaks

You will be surprised! No worries trust me. I am an amateur machinest and so I know about metalurgy


Lawrence

 

RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??, posted on March 8, 2017 at 17:30:45
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 724
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"I have been told by Mr. Dennis Fraker, to cut down the mass / size of my Mil Spec wire dramatically, so as to "retain the highs." "

Life must be tough for a True Believer. For years you have to promote the cause of thick wires, triple runs, and all that. And then suddenly a new edict comes down from on high, and now "thin is good."

 

RE: In my direct-coupled 45 amp....some observations, posted on March 8, 2017 at 21:38:08
mah
Audiophile

Posts: 55
Joined: May 26, 2008
drlowmu, One thing that stands out to me in your posted pics is the poor quality of soldering, especially those terminations involving thicker wire.
Lots of information available via Google on how to know what constitutes a good solder joint and how to achieve it.

This is more important than all of this wire nonsense.

 

RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??, posted on March 8, 2017 at 23:02:45
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 1647
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
Each wire application is different-- as always.

Too large doesn't work as well on "highs"-- as always, and too
small can leave-out a lot of musical dynamics, and can, under
certain pulsed conditions, cheat "lows" out of enough current--
as always.

The RIGHT SIZE, the right materials, and the right
configurations, lengths, and correct wire placements
and not allowing any wire to touch, or be near anything
else is what works best-- as always.

There's a right way to do something the best that it can be done--
as always.

-Dennis-

 

RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??, posted on March 9, 2017 at 04:42:32
morricab
Reviewer

Posts: 8445
Location: switzerland
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As my late friend Allen Wright used to say "thin wins", that applies to foil and wire diameter. He wired all his amps and preamps with lacquer coated thin pure silver foil strips or lacquer coated (not sure what the lacquer actually was though) pure silver wire of fine gauge (24 or finer I think).

 

RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??, posted on March 9, 2017 at 04:45:04
morricab
Reviewer

Posts: 8445
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
For line level signals where not much current needs to flow thin solid core wires and/or foils are superior from both theory and practice. A simple twisted pair or two foils put as close together as possible sounds killer.

 

RE: 13 ga. Siltech ..., posted on March 9, 2017 at 05:20:28
deathtube 667
Audiophile

Posts: 1280
Joined: November 25, 2010
DF/TW,

I thought you wired up your amplifiers with Siltech 13 ga. wire for everything.

Are you doing something different or just advising different ga. wires for budget builds?

Should I assume that the best wire is needed to get extended HF bandwidth with that 7B4 driver tube you are using?

dt 667

 

The MAD HATTER tea party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted on March 9, 2017 at 12:08:14
TomWh
Audiophile

Posts: 631
Location: Tucson Az
Joined: August 7, 2003
It is the same old stuff. Guys you can not hear or refuse to and then the ones who can hear trying to come up with their theory why it is different. You seem to want to open a discussion about different wire and sound but the usual same group of people seem to take over.

I will let you in on a story that happened years ago. I was shopping for speakers in L.A. Went to a place in the valley who had a certain speaker I was looking for at the time. He had Walker front end turntable and c.d. player and tons of high dollar stuff I could not afford. I saw these power cords going to the tube amps we were using and said what are those? He said those are home made braided 10 gauge solid copper wire you get at home depot. He thought it sounded the best in this system.

So here is a guy who make his living selling high dollar 100.000 systems who is using a cheap DIY power cord. I did make a couple of these but prefer another DIY one in my systems. So snake oil I do not think so. It should sound better because it was cheap and looked unfinished I do not think so.

So maybe to contribute something to your inquiry if you can find a copy to the late Allen Wright's book The SuperCables cookbook, there is some interesting information and theories. I tend to be a solid silver DIY guy. I also tend to go to larger gauge than Allen's smaller gage.

Your last sentence is where you lose this group. They want to believe one size fits all, talk about snake oil???

Enjoy the ride
Tom

 

RE: 13 ga. Siltech ..., posted on March 9, 2017 at 13:29:26
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 1647
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
Great questions/ideas.

That old Siltech was LS-38, and some more modern variants.
This wire annihilated the solid VS multistrand headache that
has plagued builders for over a Century.

Totally laid waste to it, and a bunch of other pet theories too...

Using solid wires? Then, accept notchy bandwidth anomalies---
solid wire tunes according to length and diameter. Works
fine in a Radio.... not so much in High Fidelity. Don't forget
"skin-effect"-- it's very real, and more prevalent as wire
diameter increases. Solid wire is very coherent, but alas!
It, alone is only one tool of many, it's not High Fidelity.

Multistrand? Copper oxidizes, giving us diode-like effects...
Strands rub together, giving us less coherency and a more
mushy, bloated, gutless sound. Use silver? Silver tarnishes.
Fortunately, silver tarnish has nowhere near the horrible
effects of oxidized copper-- so it isn't AS bad...

Enter George Cardas, the man who tames copper multistrand.
George has his own metals refining in California. Cardas Litz
has individual strands that can't rub together-- they're
coated with a dielectric. Want to hear copper perform?

Siltech added some Gold to their silver metallurgy-- an
amalgam was the result. Solder is also an amalgam.

Their silver/gold metal does not tarnish, so has no diode-
effects. Sounds just like a solid wire in that you have no
non-coherent side-effects from using it. It is Multistrand,
of course. And no, nothing outperforms it-- solid or
multistrand.

In Siltech's case, multistrand outperforms solid. How? It has a
far more linear bandwidth. So, as long as the side-effects
problem is solved, you have something that outperforms ALL
solid wire. This was due to very careful metallurgical
engineering, and careful Silicone, Kapton, or perhaps
Teflon jacketing.

We also have Cardas solid silver-- which is a very good
short-length hookup wire for small signals-- I often
parallel this or triple it, and gain more overall
linerarity and "punch". We have AGSS from Kimber. It has
a very slight "golden" sheen... Hmmmm-m? Alright, then...

Silver Sonic continues to advance, and other silver
wire people are catching up.

All of this wire development is a huge advantage to
builders. Now, we can find near Siltech performance
from other vendors... which is already lowering costs.

In the old days, I used the heavy Siltech multistrand
silver/gold for nearly everything. The difference over
anything else was very obvious-- you HAD to use it.

The largest improvement of all came to me while I had a
JBL Paragon. (83-88 db). The Paragon had over
80 feet of 14ga. silver wire in it from the factory. This
special wire was carbon-granule baked, and then
jacketed. I was using high-power tube amps to drive the
Paragon. My 2A3 amps sounded wonderful on this monster,
but couldn't get it to full power and glory-- I
love marching bands, and a good Rock Band as well as
other music.

I re-wired the whole thing with Siltech LS-38.
This was doubled-up for the crossover inputs from the
amplifiers, (there are 4 crossovers) and for crossover
outputs into the 15" woofers.

The system was listened to-- the small 2A3 amps now easily
had more power than the Paragon needed-- through THIS wire!!
For any listening level that one could physically stand.
Clean, clear, super dynamic and wideband. Awesome.

Next, I "blueprinted" both the midrange drivers and the
tweeters.... I went through several voice-coils until I got
perfect fitting all around. The short wires inside the
driver cups were replaced with Siltech LS-38. This garnered
more improvements than the voice-coil fitting alone did!
Together? NOW, we were talking!!

The JBL Paragon became an indispensable engineering tool.
It could reproduce every part of music with great transparency
power and dynamics. The Integrator-panel across its front
(see JBL Heritage) allowed far better see-through into
recording venues, and inside acoustical instruments than
most anything, yet transparency and bandwidth rivaled the
best headsets. It delivered something headsets can't
do-- it placed the venue into your room. It didn't merely
"take you there", it took the venue TO YOU.

The JBL Paragon became the ultimate design tool for amps,
and everything else in a good audio system.

Of course, it became obvious that amplifiers require the
same quality wiring, and require different wire-fitting in
different parts of an amplifier. Today, several brands and
designs of wiring are used as wire advances continue..

What you use is up to you-- and it must be.

This is only a Hobby-- you can play at any level you like.

Don't let anybody fool you, or play around with your mind,
or waste your time trying to "prove" clinically-provable
assumptions with charts, graphs, etc., unless you NEED and
can APPLY the data usefully. Personally, I read most of it,
and sometimes learn something genuinely useful from it.

Just remember one thing: it's all about performance in the
real world-- does it make you want to get up and dance, or
will it just play impressively until you sooner or later--
tire of it?

The better the ingredients, the better the Pie. The better
the Baker, also the better the Pie, and you get satisfaction!.

-Dennis-

 

RE: mil spec silver plated copper standed wires ?, posted on March 10, 2017 at 06:42:26
deathtube 667
Audiophile

Posts: 1280
Joined: November 25, 2010
DF/TW,

Got any opinions on the mil spec silver plated copper stranded PTFE wires?

I got some from APEX Jr. 12 ga. but have not used it as amp hookup wire just from passive crossover to altec horns .

Would a lighter ga. of the mil spec be ok for amp wirings or is it too budget minded to perform well?

Trying to go full range with one amp and speaker like your SS system is probably one of the biggest challenges in this hobby.

Looks like you have mastered that problem.

dt 667

 

RE: The MAD HATTER tea party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted on March 10, 2017 at 07:17:56
morricab
Reviewer

Posts: 8445
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
Have you tried Allen's recipes at the smaller gauges and found you preferred the larger ones or is it just a personal preference that you think the small gauge is too small? I was a friend of Allen's and I found his cables to be spot on (for interconnects at least). I found that foils sound best with my digital setup and fine gauge (24 or 26...can't remember) solid core silver for my Analog.

 

RE: A lot more involved than wire gauge, posted on March 10, 2017 at 07:19:52
morricab
Reviewer

Posts: 8445
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
no worse than anywhere else...internet you know...

 

RE: mil spec silver plated copper standed wires ?, posted on March 10, 2017 at 09:17:55
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 1647
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
Be careful when using Mil-Spec.

This wire is designed to enhance power transfer
efficiency in aircraft and other places.

It is very superior to ordinary copper hookup wire,
and can be a bargain cost-wise, but it does have its
limitations-- it wasn't designed for High Fidelity.

With that said, twisting 2 or 3 12ga. leads together
(for each leg, leave each polarity separated) can really drive
a speaker well. 12ga. is also good for internal
grounding systems in amps and preamps.

The lighter gauges can't compete with super-expensive,
audio-engineered stuff-- but what the heck-- in a budget
system, it could outperform any cheap copper in spades.

Would it outperform GOOD copper, such as Cardas?

That's very doubtful, but it can be tried in certain
applications-- see what happens-- why not?

One thing is sure-- it's in mass production, and would
cost a lot more if it wasn't paid for out of industrial
and military money.

I would say experiment with it, what have you to lose?

-Dennis-

 

RE: The MAD HATTER tea party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted on March 10, 2017 at 10:15:57
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 2403
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
You like this AV stuff don't you?

May I ask what it your day job? What formal experience and/or education do you have in the field of electronics?

 

RE: The MAD HATTER tea party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted on March 10, 2017 at 10:22:38
TomWh
Audiophile

Posts: 631
Location: Tucson Az
Joined: August 7, 2003
I did not do his recipes but I took to heart the connector issues. I do not use rca connectors just number 6 or 8 copper rings and climp them. So five cents vs 50.00 cardas rca jacks I have.

In regards to size/guage I tried solid silver 16 to about 28 if I remember. The sound tended to lean out lose body the smaller I went. This is all about tuning the system. I have notice people prefer detail to tone. I am a tone guy. Never came out of a music venue and said to myself wow what a black background and the air around those instruments.

What I find the most amusing is number guys who are on a tube forum telling everyone they can not hear. Wonder how they made all the great violins without a scope and a blind test procedure. Wish I would have met Allen when he was around.

Enjoy the ride
Tom

 

RE: The MAD HATTER tea party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted on March 10, 2017 at 10:30:17
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 2403
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
" Wonder how they made all the great violins without a scope and a blind test procedure."

Why would one need a scope to design a mechanical musical instrument?

But I'll sure as hell bet the great violin makers had a calibrated tuning fork!

 

RE: The MAD HATTER tea party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted on March 10, 2017 at 10:44:27
used-hifi
Audiophile

Posts: 529
Location: Surprise AZ
Joined: March 18, 2003
Tom your tuscon? I am now residing in Surprise would you care to get together?


Lawrence

 

RE: mil spec silver plated copper standed wires ?, posted on March 10, 2017 at 11:12:45
used-hifi
Audiophile

Posts: 529
Location: Surprise AZ
Joined: March 18, 2003
Hey Dennis thanks for taking your time to pst your thoughts, to be honest I am NOT much of a silver guy but I believe if used sparingly, and in the right spot I could work

Now I really am lliking this wire I am experimenting with is consisted a copper core, silver plated then gold plated over that , its very small awg but many strands in very old unbleached cotton shoestring insulation top to bottom is very good, Now I want my music I listen too to have real musical merit like what we hear in a good live unamplified venu meaning good clear vocal with proper structure and sounds.

Now silver is a bright sounding conductor or very dull sounding and can hilight our music and even sound exciting but after awhile you tire from this exaggeration plus there is losses in tone,tonal structure and realizem.

so far the thin copper silver gold wire is beating up all the others

Lawrence

 

RE: The MAD HATTER tea party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted on March 10, 2017 at 11:19:35
TomWh
Audiophile

Posts: 631
Location: Tucson Az
Joined: August 7, 2003
Not sure what av stuff is??? But in regards to Formal education mine was business and automotive. So in the formal it was more DC than Ac. The ac stuff just became a hobby 15 years ago. I can do the math and have test equipment but my ears get the final say. Also done research so the blind testing etc are not foreign to me.

Let's get to the real issue here. You can not hear or choose not to hear differences in components. You conclude from this that people who can are nuts, uneducated, or being led down the path by the alpha dog. I could play music by ear since I was in 5th grade. Played in stage, concert, and marching bands. Also some orchestras. That is probably more important to this discussion than I only got a B in calculus.

I am a firm believer that we do not have the whole picture when it comes to energy and sound. So I build and listen so if the sugar pill comes in different flavors I want the one that taste the best to me. So when E over I times R starts making music maybe I will jump into your finite camp. I forgot science came to a stand still in 2017 we will never get a new machine or law or for that matter a better understanding of what is going on. I realize that this will fall on deaf ears but maybe it might make people who can hear share their ideas.

Enjoy the ride
Tom

 

RE: The MAD HATTER tea party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted on March 10, 2017 at 11:38:55
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 2403
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
"I am a firm believer that we do not have the whole picture when it comes to energy and sound."

And that statement is exactly my point. We may not have the whole picture but current industry knowledge of audio engineering goes way beyond the silly tweaks discussed here.

I can understand why you don't believe. You do not have the training and experience to understand the physics behind the technology. If you did you would see why many of these claims are simply not possible.

Just look at all the audio and video compression technology in the past 20 years. How were those algorithms developed without a very deep understanding of an audio or video waveform.

You have a bunch of weekend hobbyists arguing over which 2 inch wire sounds better coupling an RCA jack to a tube grid pin. Seriously, do you actually believe these discussions take place in the formal electronics industry? And keep with audio here. RF examples are not relevant to audio circuits.

Where is the commercial application of these tube forum theories? And by commercial I mean established electronic industries, not some garage based amp manufacture.

There is none. The people who make design decisions on a professional level do not subscribe to this junk science. Sure you can do what ever you want on the weekend in your garage or basement but that doesn't not give the theory any additional merit.

Don't you ever wonder why all these wire theories are limited strictly to hobbyist consumer audio applications? What about the billion dollar computer industry. Why do they have no interest in these wire follies? If all that crap Tube Wrangler posts about "transfer efficiency: were true, it would be worth a fortune in the computer industry.

Do you honestly believe a group of largely untrained audio hobbyists have discovered technologies that the major universities and industry has overlooked? This audio wire crap has been going on for at least 30 years now and yet there is not one example of accredited evidence for these claims?

Again after 30 plus years!

 

RE: mil spec silver plated copper standed wires ?, posted on March 10, 2017 at 11:47:36
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 2403
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
You have a computer with a sound interface. There is some decent FFT software available free on line.

Why not show us these differences between wires? If silver wire boosts the high end enough to hear it, surely that can easily be measured.

When is somebody going to show us a repeatable test of 12wag versus thin silver wire in a tube amp input circuit?

If this is so audible, why can nobody measure it?

 

RE: mil spec silver plated copper standed wires ?, posted on March 10, 2017 at 11:54:47
used-hifi
Audiophile

Posts: 529
Location: Surprise AZ
Joined: March 18, 2003
This is the Second time I am going to ask you NON believers to please leave this thread as only subjective, Now if you want to GO AND START YOUR OWN THREAD HOW ALL OF US SUBJECTIVE PEOPLE HAVE NO CLUE GO RIGHT AHEAD LEAVE MY THREAD ALONE START YOUR OWN THREAD ALREADY!!

 

This is not the right forum!, posted on March 10, 2017 at 11:57:36
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 2403
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
There is a tweaks forum to discuss these ideas. This is supposed to be a practical construction forum.

A novice coming in here to build a project does not need to be burdened with these unproven expensive tweaks.

But I will cease posting here, what the point?

 

This is the SET froum..., posted on March 10, 2017 at 12:36:20
91derlust
Audiophile

Posts: 512
Joined: December 25, 2014
Not the TubeDIY forum. Not really sure what the purpose of this forum is these days, but DIY stuff should be on TubeDIY

91.

"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein

 

RE: The MAD HATTER tea party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted on March 10, 2017 at 13:26:40
TomWh
Audiophile

Posts: 631
Location: Tucson Az
Joined: August 7, 2003
Everything you said in the post is based on everything is known. Stop take a deep breath read again. You talk about computers like they are speakers. The reason that audio has been going in the wrong direction is return on investment.

So let's say all of you physics guy know 89 % of everything about electrons. There is 11% where maybe some of Dennis ideas may have some merit. OK when they try to explain why is as bad as you saying it can't.

Again you need to read the first sentence again and also realize never used corporate America and money as a proof of cutting edge in your debate. Now if the military needed absolute sound and was willing to throw large chunks money at it then we might have something.

I will repeat the hole in your argument. You could be the smartest physics guy in the world. Know everything up to 2017. But if there is a chance that we will come up with a new machine or proof that explains why silver sounds different than copper, then you will have to live with the fact you do not know it can't. So the bottom line is you with all your math can not tell us it can not happen. That is as wrong as you have to build with a power coated 12 gauge steel chassis.

I realize you guys like howling at the moon and I should keep my mouth shut, but I was in one of those moods.

Did I mention you need to read the first sentence again???????

Enjoy the endless debate
Tom


 

RE: The MAD HATTER tea party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted on March 10, 2017 at 13:30:35
TomWh
Audiophile

Posts: 631
Location: Tucson Az
Joined: August 7, 2003
Hi Lawrence

That might be fun.

Tom

 

RE: The MAD HATTER tea party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted on March 10, 2017 at 13:33:18
used-hifi
Audiophile

Posts: 529
Location: Surprise AZ
Joined: March 18, 2003
Kool Tom yes lets talk about it some more.


Lawrence

 

RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??, posted on March 10, 2017 at 13:34:34
used-hifi
Audiophile

Posts: 529
Location: Surprise AZ
Joined: March 18, 2003
Has anyone recently experimented with the beldon 89259 or com paired to other stuff of today??


Lawrence

 

RE: or a couple of brew-skis : ) nt , posted on March 10, 2017 at 13:51:12
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9706
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
Just for the record : No one I know of, or myself, has ever used 12 AWG wire to connect a RCA jack's "hot" terminal, to the grid of a driver tube, ever. I think some posting have gotten it incorrectly. or are flustered.

Have fun, I do !!

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: The MAD HATTER tea party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted on March 10, 2017 at 14:31:33
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 12173
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
"There is 11% where maybe some of Dennis ideas may have some merit. OK when they try to explain why is as bad as you saying it can't. "

If the theory behind Dennis' explanations are provably wrong I see no reason not to correct Dennis.

Someone, with a small knowledge base, might read Dennis' stuff and get very confused. Start following that false path and never get back on track.

That person might be the one that would have come up with some real answers to the things we don't already understand but can't because he listened to Dennis' BS and never made it back to reality.

I can give you many examples of things that Dennis has said that are just plan wrong and makes me think he has no idea of how audio electronics work.

Every time I think "there's no way Dennis could say anything more ignorant" he makes another post and proves me wrong.

What would you have me do? Just keep my mouth shut and let false statements stand?

We don't know everything but we do know what we know.

Just down this thread Dennis said, "It's because that bandwidth encompasses many different
bandwidths, all happening both at once, and in different
time references simultaneously. What is desired is a wire
that doesn't delay musical transient "A" while trying to
pass musical transient "B" at the same time....."

It sounds to me as if Dennis thinks a musical signal is more than one signal with 2 (or more) different peaks at the same time.

Here's one of the things that we do know,

Quoting myself, "Even though the signal in the wire of an audio amplifier is made up of many different signals, they have been mixed together and have become one composite signal.

At any given moment the amplitude of that signal is singular."

Or how about the time when Dennis said (while posting about the current in a SET output tube who's peak current is 120ma.) there are "hundreds of amps" of current flowing within that 120ma. envelope.

Again, to me, this just shows Dennis' lack of understand and I see no reason to just let false statements like that stand without being challenged.

Do you?

We all can think whatever we want and say whatever we want but when something is said that is totally wrong I have the right to correct it.

Does that make me the bad guy?

In the end, how a person responds the sound coming out of the speaker is subjective but how electrons behave in wire (or a tube, or a transformer....etc...) is not subjective but a matter of physics.

BTW I think saying 11% is unknown is way off base. maybe 1%, maybe less.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: This is the SET froum..., posted on March 10, 2017 at 14:47:44
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9706
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
The basic premise of one poster's suggestion that we use 12 AWG on the input lead, RCA jack to a driver's grid, is 100% incorrect.

One will not see anything like that posted here ever !! I typically may use two runs of about 19 to 22 AWG silver there, solid silver, sometimes bare. A span usually two inches long.


Here follows is a quote, sent by Mr. Dennis Fraker to me privately today, from Nikola Tesla :

"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments,
and they wander off through equation after equation and eventually
build a structure which has no relation to reality".

I would really like to know if some people posting here, on the SET Forum, have ever actually heard a SET amplifier ???

Have fun, I do !!


Jeff Medwin

 

RE: mil spec silver plated copper standed wires ?, posted on March 10, 2017 at 15:23:31
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 724
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
"Now if you want to GO AND START YOUR OWN THREAD HOW ALL OF US SUBJECTIVE PEOPLE HAVE NO CLUE GO RIGHT AHEAD LEAVE MY THREAD ALONE START YOUR OWN THREAD ALREADY!!"

Sorry, but how were people supposed to know that a thread where you said you had some new results on the comparison between heavy awg and small awg wire was intended to be exclusively about subjective impressions and not actual physics and measurements?

 

RE: The MAD HATTER tea party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted on March 10, 2017 at 15:36:25
TomWh
Audiophile

Posts: 631
Location: Tucson Az
Joined: August 7, 2003
Hi Tre'

You are not the bad guy. Dennis and Jeff like to WAG lots of things. The only reason I posted at all is the blind test show me on paper guys assume that there are not people who hear and feel music. And the numbers do not always match.

There are the number guys who say they can not hear the differences in caps. Shit you would have to be tone deaf not to pick that up. Wire is not as drastic. If 2 inches where a big deal I would guess out of the mc cart.

On the let's listen to the experts front we just had all the number guys tell us what pieces of crap interstage transformers are. Bandwidth/phase shift etc... You would be crazy to use them in a phono stage. You think I have not built lots and lots of phono stages with all the math approved parts. Well I am not selling interstages and a resistor and cap can be a lot cheaper but how about when we drop the cart on the lp.

The main point which is always lost, in this endless debate, is does it sound like real music out of the speaker. Music is my passion not math and graphs. Go to the audio shows and listen to the crap people are buying, that should tell you how many people can hear or care.

On the 1% front, infinity might be larger than you think???

Enjoy the ride
Tom

 

I agree 100%, posted on March 10, 2017 at 15:38:50
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 2403
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
"But if there is a chance that we will come up with a new machine or proof that explains why silver sounds different than copper, then you will have to live with the fact you do not know it can't."

If somebody comes up with a way to prove that silver wire in a previously un-measurable way does improve audio quality over copper wire, yes I will have to accept that as will the entire electronics community.

But like I said, we have been waiting for 35 years so far assuming most of this audiophile wire stuff started in the early 1980s.

So until such a device is invented that can measure a difference, there remains no credible scientific evidence. All we have are subjective opinions, primarily from people who lack any electrical engineering knowledge.

And BTW, it's not that silver wire or silver in general has not been studied for electrical properties. In fact quite the opposite. Silver in just one example is used extensively in high performance microwave electronics. I have been inside many satellite grade RF systems within the broadcast industry where silver wiring is used and required.

This just further proves there is no advantageous application to base band audio. We do understand the properties of silver and electrical conduction quite well. But again the weekend garage experimenter has no idea of broadcast microwave systems or other industrial and medical applications of silver wiring. You view the entire electronics world through the circuitry of a 1930s amplifier design.

 

RE: This is not the right forum!, posted on March 10, 2017 at 22:42:10
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 1647
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
A practical construction forum is one where
people are free to build what they want and need,
are free to ask any questions they like about it--
FROM ANYONE, and are free-- without intimidation--
to get those questions answered by ANYONE
that THEY choose to listen to.

In a true practical construction forum, good people
with common sense are able to glean what they wish to
apply-- and are able to reject what they do not-- from
any or all of the postings, without any enforced rulings
from "experts" who flame-out every time they see something
that they think might not conform to their charts and graphs.

WHY someone might not wish to obey them is not considered
at all.

Of course, they only want to "save you from yourself"--
they don't allow for your freedom to chart your own way
because you might make a mistake by listening to somebody
that doesn't think like them-- you might not obey
the dictations that they had deemed necessary for you....,
and that would be BAD PUPPY~!

Here are some insightful, inspiring words-- direct
quotes from Mr. Nikola Tesla:

"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for
experiments, and they wander off through equation
after equation, and eventually build a structure which
has no relation to reality".

"Energy, Frequency, Vibration".

"Intuition counts, not the brain".

I believe that Mr. Tesla knew that his
intuitive information came from the Cosmos,
what would we call it-- perhaps Universal Energy,
perhaps he got it from God.

There are certainties: (1) It worked. (2) He
said it DID NOT come from his brain. He also
mused that he applied those ideas by designing
a complete machine in his conscious thought, not
with mathematics, not from the brain or from anything
proven, not from charts, graphs, or from anything else..

He BUILT THE MACHINE FIRST. All of the proof was
in the thing he had built.

This is also how I design my own equipment-- the only
proof needed is in the equipment itself.

-Dennis-

 

Er, okay? Steps away... edges towards the door., posted on March 10, 2017 at 23:49:33
91derlust
Audiophile

Posts: 512
Joined: December 25, 2014
Jeff, I don't need to be convinced of the prevalence of stagnant, misguided "science". As an ex-researcher, still working in a research-related field, I see the limitations of science daily. I also see wild theories, guesses, flawed logic and fallacies, and all manner of biases at play...

Both extremes are clearly evident in the AA (not that there is really a duality or two points on a continuum, but I digress).

What really shits me are those claiming their personal opinions as absolute truths on one hand then lecture others on the other for doing exactly same... despite their own truths changing frequently. Unaware... driven by their neediness. Noise. Misleading.

91.

"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein

 

RE: This is the SET froum..., posted on March 11, 2017 at 00:57:24
mah
Audiophile

Posts: 55
Joined: May 26, 2008
'Cherry picking' to support your lack of knowledge and application of physics.

Look at what he said about Edison:



 

RE: Er, okay? Steps away... edges towards the door., posted on March 11, 2017 at 01:20:54
mah
Audiophile

Posts: 55
Joined: May 26, 2008
Years and many posts re 'I hear it' and not one verification.

Measurement and analysis now operates at the molecular level.

Given the will to do so, audio systems are a doddle. Most claims re hearing a difference are related to changes that could only be regarded as inaudible.

Psychoacoustics is the area that subjectivists are in denial about. In the absence of verification of their many claims this is where they should be looking. The inconsistency of what they claim to hear, between individuals, could be due to individual mind processing.

 

RE: cardas litz wire ..., posted on March 11, 2017 at 06:06:43
deathtube 667
Audiophile

Posts: 1280
Joined: November 25, 2010
DF/TW,

The cardas litz wire seems OK for my budget.

Looks like well engineered hookup wires.

I don't have the solder pot needed to tin the wires properly.

Apparently this is a must have.

Thanks for the info.

dt 667

 

RE: This is not the right forum!, posted on March 11, 2017 at 07:08:35
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 12173
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002


Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: This is the SET froum..., posted on March 11, 2017 at 09:04:45
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 1647
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
Many Thanks for the URL.

TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS:

What men are really fighting over is Turf--
or, to state it simply: resources-- energy,
power.

Political Power
(in this case, forum-induced electrical/political correctness)
is useless for producing what you want-- it is only useful for
TAKING what people think they want... away from others.

This is our dilemma: new ideas are always
opposed by those who are protecting their Turf.

We don't need or want that-- it's only cheap
politics as usual.

What we need is a new (old?) form of power that
can be used to eliminate the "need" for Turf Battles
(and war!)-- we need a free energy source- BADLY.

There are some good minds who post on these forums.

Yes, sometimes a little calculation will save time--
the controverse is ALSO true-- calculations that produce
working models that aren't quite right are also wastes
of time.

WHERE is your FREE ENERGY source? THIS is what you
should be arguing over!

"A Man With No Imagination Is A Prisoner. Trapped
In His Own Narrow Mind".

-Dennis-





 

RE: This is the SET froum..., posted on March 11, 2017 at 12:49:22
91derlust
Audiophile

Posts: 512
Joined: December 25, 2014
Dennis, I think you have just explained some of the these goings on - on both sides.

Some of us are caught in the middle; the actions of both "sides" are destroying the forum.

There is one protagonist on the SET forum who continually inflames battles, frequently posting off-topic promote his views, baiting others to respond.

91.

"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein

 

RE: In my direct-coupled 45 amp....some observations, posted on March 11, 2017 at 13:56:36
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9706
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
Looking at the above picture, in this thread, I have NO idea how you can state what you do. Are there some other pictures you can highlight, and show me where you think I am errant ?? That would be helpful. Many thanks.


Jeff Medwin

 

RE: In my direct-coupled 45 amp....some observations, posted on March 11, 2017 at 17:41:26
mah
Audiophile

Posts: 55
Joined: May 26, 2008



Jeff, simply by observation and knowledge/experience in such things.

I see blobs on tube-socket terminals, blobs/balls else-ware, excessive solder wicking along wire, dull masses of solder on multiple-component terminations, and the terminations on the rats-nests of component leads, e.g. chassis RHS/above centreline is very poor practice and likely
to have dry-joints.

Attached is a solder joint inspection guide and also a pic showing good soldering work.

I hope you find this helpful.

 

RE: In my direct-coupled 45 amp....some observations, posted on March 11, 2017 at 17:54:11
mah
Audiophile

Posts: 55
Joined: May 26, 2008
The pics can be loaded into your favourite picture viewer and enlarged to get a better look.

A good guide on soldering, below.

The Weller website is worth a visit.



 

RE: This is the SET froum..., posted on March 12, 2017 at 11:14:00
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 1647
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
The forum cannot be destroyed-- ever-- as long as BOTH
sides can speak freely at all times on anything that
ANY POSTER feels is relevant, not the other way around--

When either side tries to limit or stop discussion-- if that
side succeeds, then the forum is destroyed.

Whenever a public forum becomes a dictatorship (by one side)
or a democracy (mob rule led by an agent/s), it IS destroyed.

The only way a public forum can be destroyed is--
either thru one-side rule (dictatorship), or thru
Mob Rule (democracy). Either or both will destroy a
forum because INDIVIDUAL person input is either controlled
or squelched, or barred. This, of course, renders a
forum useless for new ideas and problem solving.

As long as INDIVIDUALS on both sides are able talk/post
freely, all is JUST FINE.

This honest operation of a forum isn't especially revered
by those who wish to control it for their own uses.
Intelligent people allow those people to talk freely also--
intelligent people want ZERO suppression of human expression
of ideas, so they tolerate give-and-take.

Those who resent this normally constant give-and-take are
trying to use the forum for their own ends only.

One can always tell the phonies from the real people.
The phonies are trying to shut someone up.

That is a certain sign that they are not on the level..

"I never promised you a bed of roses". --Is The Price of Liberty.

-Dennis-

 

RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??, posted on March 12, 2017 at 12:00:37
used-hifi
Audiophile

Posts: 529
Location: Surprise AZ
Joined: March 18, 2003
Ok so back on topic I wanted to report a few other wires I rotated in and out of a very sensitive area, some of the better wires I used were copper core direct gold plated, then I have some smaller awg copper core silver plated then gold plated this was THE wire to beat and every time I put it back it was the clear winner. Next up was some very very old WE 12awg its really rare because I have not seen any anywhere!, Its tinned plated copper and when i removed the cotton/plastic insulation there was a bright tinned wire so i went ahead and installed this in that same coupling position...WOW this is a really great wire WE knew how to make quality wire, it was almost as wideband and as good as the copper/silver/gold wire and I may have just let it at that but since I have other wire to try it came out, so finally last but not least I have 18 year old pure solid core Silver 21awg I bought from a NY jeweler that came with an essay this was 4n pure silver, like all the other wire it went into unbleached cotton sleeve, my preconceived notion was it is going to be HOT sounding but actually it was somewhat muted I almost took it out right away, but I gave it an hour and it came full circle and and its THE BEST so far in this coupling pos most realistic and natural but I am slightly missing that beautiful glow that the copper/silver/gold wire has but it was a very slight glow.

"somewhat off topic" but I used this silver wire years ago when I bought it and it sucked big time,BUT......... it was in very old teflon tubing and that made the wire very very Bright sounding, not so in cotton!!!


More solid core and awg's to try later, I also wanted to say that I still believe that solid core wire is IMO better then stranded.

Lawrence

 

RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??, posted on March 12, 2017 at 12:10:57
megasat16
Audiophile

Posts: 207
Location: SoCal
Joined: April 15, 2015
Have you tried Home Depot 10AWG solid core Romex?

No wire AB tests complete without trying out this one.
.
.
.Thou shall not stand where I type for I carry a bottle of Certified Audiophile Air and a Pure Silver Whip.

 

RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??, posted on March 12, 2017 at 12:25:44
used-hifi
Audiophile

Posts: 529
Location: Surprise AZ
Joined: March 18, 2003
Nope, I do have plenty of 12awg romex solid core but no 10awg

 

RE: This is the SET froum..., posted on March 12, 2017 at 13:43:10
91derlust
Audiophile

Posts: 512
Joined: December 25, 2014
This is an audio forum, with guidelines and I assume some purpose. What you have described guarantees those few with the loudest and most insistent voices, and most willing to ignore the forum guidelines, will prevail. I thought perhaps - as a diverse collective - could achieve more than forum war-mongering and turf warring. My bad.

This may be a turf war, but it needn't be. I'm very much for genuine diversity of opinion and healthy debate.

91.

"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein

 

RE: This is the SET froum..., posted on March 12, 2017 at 18:04:22
tube wrangler
Manufacturer

Posts: 1647
Location: USA
Joined: January 29, 2007
I'm with you on this-- I too believe in staying on topic,
that is, as long as we don't start suppressing posts/posters
as a sort of "cure" for a problem that doesn't exist
as a genuine problem.

We should also let posters stray from the topic as long as
it doesn't become something bizarre, like advertising
Women's brazziers. Wait a minute-- even that might have some
bearing on something in audio that maybe we could apply--
then, it might not. If it doesn't-- nothing lost--
laugh at it, and go on to the posts you can use.

Most of the posts look very much like signs of
health to me... if we don't leave them alone, we end up
as cheap, totalitarian censors-- which are a penny-a-dozen
all over the world.

These particular forums are unique in that they have so
far stayed in the free speech/expression mode, making them
the most valuable forums on the internet.

That this causes some frictions is exactly what should
be expected and will happen but it is POSITIVE, not negative.

The trick to negotiating such a place is to use the posts
you can use yourself. There are plenty of good ones
posted on both sides, simply pick those out for yourself.

You could censor some posts or posters, but then all you
would have is tons of the same ideas-- worked over and over
until all the members got bored by the same approaches from
the posts they did allow and the forum becomes just
another club just like the millions of others on the
internet.

The intelligence and ingenuity of nearly all of the posters
here is very high. Arguments between members should be
expected, encouraged, and learned from!

-Dennis-




 

A lay-out catastrophe ......., posted on March 17, 2017 at 13:10:33
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9706
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
What does your term " Chassis RHS / above centerline " mean, stand for ??

Off Topic :

The amp you choose to show us, is a very poor example. Oh, I will grant you, the soldering looks fine.

But this is the SET Forum, and there are HUGE and numerous mistakes, in that amp's LAY OUT. It is a good example of what NOT to do, in SET construction.

Only the unintiated would be impressed by that amp's underside photo. We have to LISTEN to a SET amp, and not LOOK at its wiring. Here, briefly, is what I see, as poor lay out and design practice, in this photo :

(a) Wires touching, indeed even bundled. One never has wires touching each other in SET lay out. In Push-Pull, there is inherently more bandwidth, so, one can do this. Not in SET. I see seven tie wraps, where there should be none. Wires should never touch, and cross at right angles, when necessary. NEVER would one bundle different wires together - into a group.

(b) The use of a component PC board. All this does, is ADD to lead lengths, which should be kept as SHORT as feasible in SET lay out. Point to point rules in SET lay out, with the lengths of the components REDUCE the needed lead lengths. 'Takes thought to position / envision it, but " form follows function".

(c) Non - optimized wire gauge choices. Throughout the entire amp. The red twisted pair on the far-left, AC leading to the power transformer's primary, could be more robust, advantageously. Observe the tiny wire gauge off of the power transformer's high voltage secondary ( red-black-red ). See how TINY that wire is ? This creates a loss in dynamics, peak instantaneous dynamics, which makes the amp no longer fun to listen to.

Also, we now know in 2017, complements of Jack Elliano and Dennis Fraker, not to twist the high voltage secondary leads of a SET amp together as shown, if we seek best sonics.

Getting back to my soldering: I agree with your observations. In the past, I have used large ( often 12 AWG ) wiring, and too-small of an iron. As of December 2016, I have gone to a new, more powerful soldering gun, which should give me what I need, heat and heat control-wise. I also stopped using mostly " one size fits all, 12 AWG wire ", so as to retain more of the highs in SET builds I do. I will read your provided tutorial, thank you, and proceed as I can. Regards,

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??, posted on March 23, 2017 at 16:23:27
used-hifi
Audiophile

Posts: 529
Location: Surprise AZ
Joined: March 18, 2003
some more little updates, I have bundles of different types of wire laying to try and this latest is a piece of REAL kimber tcss blue from driver to coupling cap and this wire is VERY WIDE BAND on esp on the top end :) love it...

I am not using parelled or bundels or more then one just a single blue tcss wire and it sounds fantastic!! very very good wire.


Lawrence

 

RE: whats Better dynamically better quality but smaller or large awg??, posted on March 26, 2017 at 06:25:29
Stuben
Audiophile

Posts: 522
Location: Guber Ohio
Joined: December 30, 2005
My day job involves the design of Automation systems that pass data back and forth. Sold core conductors have a higher band width than stranded. We like to use stranded because it is more robust to install and maintain so we are tempted to live with the lesser bandwidth when application will accept it.

That's my conductor story.

I think it is fun to play with conductor sizes to imagine I can hear the difference. When using extremes like large gauge or high strand count you theoretically effect the out come. At the end of the day, there's little value in whole exercise...way too many other variables to deal with. Build amps and learn.

 

RE: The MAD HATTER tea party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, posted on March 26, 2017 at 09:11:28
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 12173
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
Following the math, every time I modify my system to lower the distortion (without resorting to FB) it sounds more like real instruments.

I've been singing and playing since I was a kid.

As a young man I was in bands and live sound was always my department.

Later mixing local bands filled part of my time.

I've been building my own electronics (both home stereo and studio gear) for decades.

I worked in professional studios for 11 years and spent time on the road with a national act mixing front of house.

"Music is my passion" and the math helps me get there.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

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