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My 3 years to the goal of the non-compromise SET and still learning..

87.126.170.39

Posted on September 13, 2015 at 12:53:04
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015


Hello guys,

Since the year of 2012, I started with the DIY hi-fi audio new hobby of mine. After listening to some amplifiers, I fell in love with tubes and especially with single ended amplifiers, because of the "magic" sound they delivered to me.
The amplifier I've listened to wasn't my property, so I had to give it back to its master. However. I was already infected from the SET virus and it was too late for me to be saved, so I wanted to build myself a good SET amplifier, together with a high-end system from scratch. I had almost zero knowledge of amplifiers, I hadn't the slightest idea how tubes worked.
With time, I found myself a well-paid job and I started reading and educating myself with bloody thirst for the hi-fi tube sound.

My first single ended amplifier consisted a scrap MDF board with the parts on it, a 3 stage capacitor coupled stage with 6N8S and 6B4G tubes and a good custom interleaved transformer. Nothing fancy, scrap wire and cheapest parts.
I got sound and I was very happy it was my first tube power amplifier outputting sound. Although it wasn't very magical, it sounded a bit sterile and boring. And from them, I started to get familiar how difficult is to get yourself close to the SET magic.

I've been building only this amplifier as my only non-compromise standard. I've changed different tubes, capacitors, power supply topologies, wires, chassis, bias methods, stages - a huge trial and error. It was done only by ear, because during these years I've also found that simple measurements weren't a SQ factor.


By trial and error, I've come to the following personal conclusions, to get the ultimate sound from a SET amplifier:

1. Power supply
-good low induction low Lp and Cp power transformer with split bobbin for minimal capacitive coupling from the mains and low Lp for less stray magnetic fields.
-separate high quality heater transformer
-separate power supplies with separate secondaries for the driver and the output stage
-tube rectification with low Rp tubes for the output stage
-choke input power supplies work for me the best
-simple LC filtering networks ; better one LC with big values than multiple LCs
-highest quality chokes and capacitors as possible ; and chokes matter as much as caps.
-high quality IEC, power cord, fuse and hook-up wire
-mains plug polarity ; it's even audible on the heater power supply with indirect heating tubes.
-good passive power supplies are much more predictable ; regulated power supplies with feedback can give bass, authority and soundstage, but can sound nervous and unnatural, they are harder to build.

2. Amplification stages
-in terms of simplicity, less is more, so less stages result in a better sound, BUT only if the driver can satisfy the driving needs for the output tube ; the driver must always have more headroom than the output tube
-different bias techniques can act differently on different tubes in different loading modes ; cathode bias can be very good for example, but needs a very high quality cap and resistor ; battery bias can sound good or mediocre and is also dependent of the battery brand and holder
-if using fixed bias for the power stage, the later must have a very high quality power supply with a separate transformer choke input and tube rectifier ; otherwise I prefer the sound with a cathode bias output tube with good capacitor
-Interstage transfomer coupling delivers the best for me and of course, it's quality must be very high
-any signal transformers IT and OPT must be of very high quality, wound on a low hysteresis core, interleaved with a good balance of Cp and Lp to deliver a -3dB point well above the audio band (my OPT does it at 100KHz) and a good low frequency -3dB point at 10Hz
-no loading resistor on the secondary of the IT gives the best sound, if the IT is good enough
-grid resistors on high gm tubes steal from the sound, but sometimes they are needed.

3.Chassis, accessories and misc.
-chassis material influences the sound ; metals, woods ; if wood, the grain direction is very important. I found that it sounds more natural if the grain is perpendicular to the listener.
-make sure to use good vibration treatment feet
-high quality output terminals and RCAs are very important ; they influence the sound so much and many builders underestimate them.
-the less connections and solderings, the better sound ; think twice before cutting that wire!
-solder IS important ; solderless can be even better
-the hook-up wire makes as much difference as a speaker or interconnect wire ; the same goes for its direction ; every wire I use is first listened on a hi-end system and I find its direction by ear, then I use it on my projects.
-directionality goes even to resistors and non-polar caps ; they just sound better in one way and worse in the other
-grounding, of course - I favor star ground.
-bundling wires is a no-no, especially with cables ties.
-the sound can be further tweaked with wooden discs on transformers or tweaks as battery grounds.
-and last but not least, wait for components BURN IN

OF COURSE, the most of these tweaks are true for any kind of amplifier or audio device.



So

 

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RE: My 3 years to the goal of the non-compromise SET and still learning.., posted on August 10, 2016 at 12:47:04
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
Hello hello,

It's been awhile. Unfortunately I cannot boast with much upgrades on the amplifier done, mainly because of my lower financial strength and the lack of spare time right now.

I managed to upgrade the noisy pair of heater transformers with new ones that I managed to wind myself on the CNC winding machine at work. They're very quiet and have an electrostatic shield between the primary and secondary in order to limit HF noise pollution into the heaters.

Unfortunately, I had a small "measurement" accident that cost me my driver tube and my series grid Amtrans resistor. Some time will be needed to make my damaged monoblock sing again. I take this mishap as a chance to overhaul the monoblocks a bit.

Best regards,
Alexander.








 

A little, but significant upgrade., posted on June 14, 2016 at 10:06:44
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
Hello again,

It has been some time since I posted.
My life has become a bit financially poorer. But I managed to do some nice upgrades. Now, I'm very satisfied of the sound output my system does.

At first, I made myself a DIY power distributor that increased the overall quality of my whole system. It's based on cheap "all brass" sockets, pine frame + birch plywood top. The wiring inside is done with Neotech UP-OCC solid core hook-up wire. There is a selector switch that powers up the whole system in sequences. There are dedicated sockets for the heater, B+ and DAC. The sequence is as follows:
0. off
1. Heater on
2. B+ and DAC on through a resistor for soft start
3. Heater and B+ fully on
4. Same, except I'm bypassing the evil fuse inside that degrades sound quality.






Later on, I swapped the EY500 ITT damper diodes with the Telefunken EY83.
Guess what, I'm listening with the Telefunkens and I don't want the ITTs.
I'm very happy with the overall sound right now.



Best regards,
Alexander.

 

RE: My 3 years to the goal of the non-compromise SET and still learning.., posted on March 12, 2016 at 02:12:19
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015



Hello again, it's been awhile...

I did resistor upgrades a week ago and I'm very impressed from the benefits. I replaced the cathode resistor, the grid series resistor and the series resistance to the power supply choke.


Here are my opinions:

1. The cathode resistor upgrade from 4xPhilips 2,4k (600R) to 620R Mills MRA12
a) Immediate subjective impressions (WOW effect) - 3/5
b) Impressions with time (3/5)
c) Contentment of the improvement (4/5)
The most of the improvements are in the soundstage - size, depth, width, heght, pinpoint. In terms of sound signature, the resistor is more on the calm, flat sound side.

2. The series grid resistor upgrade from Vishay VR68 MF to Amtrans CF.
a) Immediate subjective impressions (WOW effect) - 4/5
b) Impressions with time (4/5)
c) Contentment of the improvement (4,5/5)
I can immediately say that this resistor doesn't sound like a common carbon one. It's fast, precise and very detailed just like a MF, but with a subjective feel of eveness, like an even speaker frequency response. I also got improvements in the soundstage in every aspect and more PRAT.

3. The power supply resistor upgrade (in series with the choke) from Philips MF to Holco MF
a) Immediate subjective impressions (WOW effect) - 4/5
b) Impressions with time (2/5)
c) Contentment of the improvement (2/5)

Here I'm not sure if I like the difference this resistor made to me. The whole sound signature became a bit harsher without much improvements in detail and soundstage. Although the harshness is pretty much tolerable to my taste, this upgrade didn't deliver the benefits that the other resistors did.

Best regards,
Alexander.

 

RE: My 3 years to the goal of the non-compromise SET and still learning.., posted on April 7, 2016 at 14:03:16
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
I am happy to report that my amplifier scored a pretty high score on our local DIY audio exposition. Although I was very pessimistic and worried, I was very happy when I heard my amplifier sounding. I am pretty happy with the result and I'll move on to better sound for the next year's expo.

I will share some "know-how" I learned while upgrading my SET for the exposition.

1. HEATER WIRE - very important and influences the whole sound of the amplifier, even on indirectly heated tubes. This is one of the best upgrades I've ever done. The change is like swapping a mediocre to better speaker/power cord.

2. POWER DISTRIBUTOR - it goes together with my whole system. A power distributor made of nice wooden chassis, and good wire with the proper direction was my trump card at the expo and a great upgrade. It should be vibration treated as every other hi-fi equipment. I put soundcare feet on it and the quality of soundstage width, depth and bass increased.

Some photos of our national expo:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B1Vyfa4EboUhYlVvUVdpVkNWQnc&usp=sharing

Regards,
Alexander.

 

RE: My 3 years to the goal of the non-compromise SET and still learning.., posted on August 11, 2016 at 08:35:28
TubeDriver
Audiophile

Posts: 794
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 16, 2007
Some very cool looking and I imagine sounding gear!

I hope you can get your amps up and running soon. Every DIYer needs a simple backup amp just so they can listen to music while working on the main amps! I have some nice DIY PP EL84 monoblocks or a SET 421A amp to throw into my system when my main monoblocks are being worked on (or just for a change).

 

RE: My 3 years to the goal of the non-compromise SET and still learning.., posted on August 21, 2016 at 03:07:28
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
Thank you!

I'm using my spare time during week-ends to repair them. Fortunately I have another SET playing music for me right now. Not my property, but a friend's. I took it home with me to do some mods to it and currently, I'm "burning it in".

The reason of my accident was the foolish mistake of putting the binding posts near the output transformer. Due to some loosening of one of them, its edges seemed to have dug up in the transformer's insulation and to the primary. I wasn't aware of this.
When the time had come for me to take some measurements last week, my goal was to measure frequency response and power output. I had connected a resistor load and my oscilloscope's probe across the amplifier's output terminals. A function generator was also running with its RCA terminated cable ready to be plugged in the input of the monoblock. The measurements were successful with the first channel. I got 12W RMS at 1kHz and 25Hz-28kHz FR at -3dB, HF limited by the interstage transformer.

Happy from my results, I moved the equipment to the other channel and plugged the load and probe to its output. At the moment I plugged the RCA cable in the input, the amp went BZZZ, the input tube arced heavily in purple and while I rushed for the power switch, I heard a bang and later there was a smell of a burnt component!
The aftermath was "welded" grid to cathode input tube, blown series grid resistor (Amtrans, it hurts), blown function generator and insulation breakdown of the output transformer.





Luckily I managed to repair the function generator last week. The power supply regulators and the final output stage were blown. It took me a few days to find the faults, measure, buy new parts and replace them.
The output transformer is also okay right now. In order to fix it, I carefully cut the outer insulation to reach the burnt spot of the primary. Visually there was a winding turn with charred insulation at the top that resulted from the arcing.





I know the person who wounded my OPT, so I was familiar with the materials he used to manufacture it. I put a tiny droplet of solvent, waiting for it to soften the glue and using a very thin plastic card, I inserted it between the charred turn and the healthy ones, separating them with a micron distance. Afterwards I sprayed some PCB insulating lacquer on the windings and finally sealed it back using the same glue. This procedure was made to make sure I won't get a primary winding shorted turn, which would result in a lesser useful transformer inductance, downgrading its performance.

The resistor and the tube are, of course, beyond repair. Thankfully, I had some spare EL802 tubes left that I managed to match using our uTracer at work. I'll be replacing the resistors with Vishay metal films, which IMHO are inferior the Amtrans, but still very good for the money.

My explanation for the accident is that the current found itself a nice path, from the scope probe to the OPT primary, then from the main power supply filter capacitor holding 390V to amplifier ground, then to cathode of the input tube where it easily broke through, arcing to the grid, then from the grid resistor to the RCA input and from the low output impedance of the function generator finally going to the shared neutral between it and the scope. I guess the current was somewhere between 0,8A at its peak, considering the resistances of the primary, the arc inside the tube and the grid resistor. It was plenty enough to weld the tube and blow the resistor.

Now, the light inside the tunnel - I take each defeat as a new start. Now I've begun repairing my monoblocks and upgrading them a bit. I made oiled solid birch plywood binding posts ready to be installed, but unfortunately I'll have to wait until Monday in order to buy myself long brass screws for them.










I'm finally putting plate cap on the output tubes and I'm covering the enameled OPT wires with thick cotton sleeve.
About the Telefunken EY83s, for now I prefer letting them be, standing plugged in their ugly looking adapters until I get the opportunity to find some EY500 of the same brand.






I sincerely hope the sharing of my mistake will be useful as a safety tip and warning to other fellow audio enthusiasts.

Best regards,
Alexander.

 

RE: My 3 years to the goal of the non-compromise SET and still learning.., posted on August 21, 2016 at 05:31:15
TubeDriver
Audiophile

Posts: 794
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 16, 2007
Wow, that was a significant failure! Glad you have fixed it. A warning indeed!


Beautiful binding posts!

 

RE: My 3 years to the goal of the non-compromise SET and still learning.., posted on August 22, 2016 at 11:31:05
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
Thank you.

I thought of using my DIY time more usefully with the sharing of some detailed photos, something I didn't do before.
Behold, my indian rosewood bias battery holder.



The screw is nickel plated brass and the wires are Neotech UP-OCC.



The holder is placed in series between the input and the grid to provide -1.6V bias. The battery is VR303 Varta AgO, chosen for its transparent sound.



Best regards,
Alexander.

 

RE: My 3 years to the goal of the non-compromise SET and still learning.., posted on August 22, 2016 at 11:39:46
TubeDriver
Audiophile

Posts: 794
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 16, 2007
:)

 

RE: My 3 years to the goal of the non-compromise SET and still learning.., posted on August 23, 2016 at 12:42:23
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015

The first monoblock is already running. I made the addition of making a simple fixed bias. The output tube is dissipating 45W on the plate. Don't be scared, it's a sturdy tube. I've ran a pair for a year without any signs of noticeable deterioration. I have a few friends who have ran it even at 55W. I cannot guarantee the same for a western EL519 though.

It is apparent that the plate glows on one side only. This is due to structural inside asymmetry. A perfect tube will share an even redness on both anode sides. Unfortunately, when I tried matching tubes by this criteria, only 2 from 20 did it.







 

RE: My 3 years to the goal of the non-compromise SET and still learning.., posted on August 24, 2016 at 09:58:17
megasat16
Audiophile

Posts: 207
Location: SoCal
Joined: April 15, 2015
Thanksfully, only two tubes red plate out of 20 tubes. Some tube may red plate (even a little) due to the a little more sensitive grid voltage or some kind of shorts or leakage between elements.

Are you using those tubes with the redness on the plate? I think it's called a red plating!

And no, you don't want to match tubes with the color of the redness on the plate!
.
.
.Thou shall not stand where I type for I carry a bottle of Certified Audiophile Air and a Pure Silver Whip.

 

RE: Not exactly, posted on August 24, 2016 at 10:23:35
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015

You did not understand my point. All 20 tubes red plated, but only 2 of them did it symmetrically.

Currently, I'm using it with the little red plating. This is a tube that doesn't mind it, deducing it by my own and the experience of others.

 

RE: Not exactly, posted on August 24, 2016 at 10:31:41
megasat16
Audiophile

Posts: 207
Location: SoCal
Joined: April 15, 2015
Yes, I did not understand before but now I do! You are one lucky guy to find all 20 tubes that will red plate at "normal operating condition" or you are pushing the tubes too hard so all of them are red plating.

What's so desirable about the sonic quality of the red plated tubes other than being somewhat useful in the Class C/D/E transmitters?


.
.
.Thou shall not stand where I type for I carry a bottle of Certified Audiophile Air and a Pure Silver Whip.

 

RE: Not exactly, posted on August 24, 2016 at 10:53:46
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
I'm pushing the tube a bit harder because the temptation for more power, the pushing of a tube in a more linear region and the lack of possibility to lower B+.

Regards,
Alexander.

 

RE: Not exactly, posted on February 5, 2017 at 15:30:37
used-hifi
Audiophile

Posts: 1100
Location: Surprise AZ
Joined: March 18, 2003
Updates??

 

RE: My 3 years to the goal of the non-compromise SET and still learning.., posted on August 23, 2016 at 16:38:14
TubeDriver
Audiophile

Posts: 794
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 16, 2007
Well, at least they are a lot cheaper than most triode output tubes!

 

RE: My 3 years to the goal of the non-compromise SET and still learning.., posted on August 23, 2016 at 23:13:46
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
The truth is, each time I go to a radio flea market, I get some at the cost of cents. I've gathered nearly 30 pcs.

Regards,
Alexander.

 

RE: My 3 years to the goal of the non-compromise SET and still learning.., posted on January 2, 2016 at 02:24:59
sdaudio2@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 5
Location: On. Canada
Joined: December 21, 2006
Put a signal genny on the input(Use square waves) and adjust the value of input resistance(500 ohms) and check rise time on the output of the amplifier...Have found thru trial and error that the value of input load resistance can also have a drastic effect onthe sound of a circuit also...I have found that the max self bias value here will increase the aparent speed/naturalness of reproduction...Best wishes...Dave

 

RE: My 3 years to the goal of the non-compromise SET and still learning.., posted on December 25, 2015 at 04:52:13
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015



Yesterday I became convinced that the power cord made a huge difference to the heater supply, even when it's INDIRECT. I am astonished.

Merry Christmas to everyone!
Alexander

 

RE: My 3 years to the goal of the non-compromise SET and still learning.., posted on December 31, 2015 at 08:59:12
TubeDriver
Audiophile

Posts: 794
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 16, 2007
aknaydenov,
Your post certainly started an interesting discussion, MQ Mike, JR, Dave S and others all talking to each other and us, it was both entertaining and thought provoking. At least until, it turned into ego/ideology driven bicker fest full of straw men and appeals to authority. I guess each reader just has to decide what is signal and what is noise, and procede from there.

I spent the last couple decades working on clinical research trials. I am currently an investigator on two DB treatment protocols and I can tell you that this field in general is so filled with under powered, poorly designed and above all else, biased research designs that virtually half (I am being generous here) of the published reviewed research finding are crap/false. Proof of this claim? Just look at the pattern of subtle, secondary non-replications (and these are just from the findings that are published, to say nothing about the non-published non-replications). My point is that the appeal to traditional "science" (the scientific method, study design, academic credentials, peer reviewed publications, the whole kaboodle etc etc) as a holy grail which tramples over any empirical experience is not as compelling to me as a scientist as perhaps it should be or once was (back when I was a young, bright eyed scientist just starting my career). At the most basic level, once you have heard a difference (regardless of the underlying origin for this result) between A and B in your audio system, you are sort of screwed arent you? I mean, we can't just turn that off and pretend it did not happen right?
I don't have the time (or frankly the inclination) to test the direction of all the passive components in my audio system, but I enjoy hearing about your findings in this area. I have compared cable direction and like most DIYers, I have spent time comparing the results I get from differing caps, resistors, circuit topologies etc. I really LIKE the sound of my system, such that endless tinkering is somewhat a matter of diminishing returns for me, but I suspect I could make it better if I could but find the time and energy . But I applaud those that do take these extra steps, you have taken your passon to another level and that is very cool. Food for thought!

Happy listening and Happy New Year.

 

RE: My 3 years to the goal of the non-compromise SET and still learning.., posted on January 1, 2016 at 10:51:20
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
Tubedriver,

Thank you for sharing your detailed thoughts and kind words. The truth is, high-end audio as a hobby and the very kind people I've met influenced me in a way that widened my view of the world in a gigantesque magnitude. I am becoming more and more skeptical about the information people are fed every day. I never liked modern educational system and I believe it does more damage than good, standardizing our society. We humans must not forget that the world is what it is ONLY through our own perception using our five senses.
There is a lot to talk about this. For now I wish you a Happy new Year and much health and happiness!

Best regards,
Alexander.

 

More thoughts on wire direction:, posted on October 6, 2015 at 11:08:44
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
1) If copper wire has directionality, that would obviously include SPDIF, AES, even USB and Ethernet cables. Electrical signals are electrical signals after all. So is a cable carrying audio as encoded by binary voltages or PWM subject to audible direction effects?

2) I can tell you based on my career that major recording studios, MapleShade excluded, broadcast centers, mastering facilities, do not worry about wire direction. So an audio signal could have been through tens of not hundreds of random direction cables? Can the distortion caused by improper directionality be reversed at the end of the playback chain,i.e in your home system? Now keep in mind that audio is mostly in digital form either as discrete AES or even more so today, file based running over ethernet networks so question #1 plays into this.

3) If this new distortion model exists, it still must function under our laws of physics? The same laws that control RLC parameters. We all know the longer a cable gets, the higher the resistance and inductance gets, as well as the capacitance increases. Therefore it would stand to reason that directionality distortion would increase with distance as well. So while directionality may require very gifted hearing and clean amplification to hear with a six foot interconnect, even a cheap AV receiver should then be able to resolve the difference at 50 feet?

Or if this is diode effect, then is it a "once done" type of distortion>

Things to consider if you want to persue this research. And this is hardly an all inclusive list. Just a few things I though of in my hour commute to work today.

 

RE: More thoughts on wire direction:, posted on October 10, 2015 at 03:17:33
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
1. Maybe so. Although I haven't tried, because my USB cable has an USB-A connector on the one side and USB-B on the other.

2. My personal opinion is that the direction of a cable alters the whole sound signature of an audio system. This same signature can be somewhat altered again by another component in the signal chain, subjectively compensating the "wrong" direction. Much less problematic is to use the "wrong" subjective direction on every system component, but keeping it the same for both stereo channels. Then you agree with the whole signature as the system's and if you don't like it, you start tweaking it with other components.
Much more problematic is to have one stereo channel with "right" cable directions and the other with "wrong" cable directions. Then you will have different sounding channels and there's nothing you can do about it.
I think this phenomenon is mostly problematic for DIY communities, but lesser for commercial, where the later use a big spool of cable and for the most of the time, connect its end always on the same spot of the audio device.
You cannot inverse the direction of PCB tracks. They can be considered a mix of right and wrong directions. They can be considered as a constant. But you can alter the whole system sound signature with your speaker cable or RCA cable.

3. It does function under a law of physics for sure, although I'm not sure exactly which.

 

RE: More thoughts on wire direction:, posted on October 11, 2015 at 10:24:50
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
"I think this phenomenon is mostly problematic for DIY communities, but lesser for commercial, where the later use a big spool of cable and for the most of the time, connect its end always on the same spot of the audio device."

I can tell you from 30 years of experience, that is hardly the case. First, I have yet to see a roll or box of wire from a standard cable manufacture that has direction markings on it.

Installation wise, there are many different techniques and practices. Sometimes the cable is pulled in place. Other times it is cut and re-spooled. Again in no case has any wiring technician I ever worked with worried about which end is which. Nor has any systems engineer I know ever specified such.

There is one exception. On power cables when installing the connector, there is a correct cable end so the wires spread into the screws properly. If you have the wrong end, two wires will have to cross making assembly more difficult. On multi-conductor cables the same scenario can apply. Of course this practice is strictly mechanical. It makes no difference electrically.

 

RE: More thoughts on wire direction:, posted on October 13, 2015 at 15:11:06
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
Today a client came and brought his Benchmark 1 DAC to listen to it on our system. We plugged it into an Arcam Delta 70.2 transport.

He wanted to listen to several SPDIF cables on his DAC. So we A-B-A-B "ied" him. Subjectively he preferred some, hated others. When we stopped at the one he preferred the most, my colleague changed its direction without telling him what he was doing. I was listening too and I liked the "B" direction instead of "A", but instead of saying it, I waited for the client to share his opinion first. He told us he liked "this new cable" (B) even more than the previous one and described us what he heard. Then we told him about the direction thing.
Many clients (including me) who were once skeptics, came out non-skeptics and never changed their minds.

 

RE: More thoughts on wire direction:, posted on October 6, 2015 at 16:56:46
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
"So an audio signal could have been through tens of not hundreds of random direction cables? Can the distortion caused by improper directionality be reversed at the end of the playback chain,i.e in your home system?"

Yes, I was pondering about that also. It seems remarkable how apparently so many evils, like "dead sounding" solid-state amplification, and now also completely random wire directions, on the path from the microphones in the recording studio to the home stereo system, can be "fixed" by remedies available to the listener in his own home. Special power sockets, power cords, crystals on the coffee table, flashing lights, green pens, properly-oriented wires,... All it takes is some faith, money, and probably a large helping of suggestibility too...

Chris

 

Correct Direction of the Washer?, posted on October 2, 2015 at 13:30:19
megasat16
Audiophile

Posts: 207
Location: SoCal
Joined: April 15, 2015
It seems there are gurus (self proclaimed) on this board who can hears the correct direction of a metal due to the grain orientations or metallic structure.

Thus, the question about the correct direction for the washer that needs to be installed in the screw type Power Filter caps. I also like to know what type is the best to use since I bought 3 different types after reading this thread.

1. Copper Colored Brass Washer Size # 10
2. Zinc coated Brass Locknut Washer Size # 10
3. Steel locknut washer Size # 10

It only cost me $1.29 for each pack of qty. 10 so I bought all 3 packs. I would like to use all 3 types of washer together if necessary.

Is it a good idea to use all 3 types or just one type?

If I need to use 2 or more washers, what would be the correct sequence to install these washers so electron flow is smooth without jitters?

I was also going to ask the direction of the screws going into the cap but after careful examination, I found it can only go one way. So, I just have to trust and hope the screw makers know the correct direction of the metals when they are cutting the screws. I really don't want to get screwed by it's almost impossible to screw it to the cap any other way!

Thanks for your expert opinions in this!
.
.
.Thou shall not stand where I type for I carry a bottle of Certified Audiophile Air and a Pure Silver Whip.

 

RE: Correct Direction of the Washer?, posted on October 2, 2015 at 20:58:17
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10047
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
Whatever direction you decide, don't forget to polish the edge all around. Magnetic flux can spew out of a rough-edged washer like you wouldn't believe. Totally destroys the sonic aura.

 

RE: Correct Direction of the Washer?, posted on October 2, 2015 at 14:19:34
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
megasat16,

Although I haven't progressed so far, I believe the washers and screws also may have their directions. But I prefer removing a washer instead of figuring out how to find its direction. I've too much of it already.

I know a group of my audiophile colleagues who developed solderless terminals for speakers cables and crossovers. They consisted of a small but thick walled copper tube with screws to press cables into each other. The guys listened to the "direction" of the copper tube and determined it, before cutting it into smaller pieces.

 

On year 27 and still going forward, posted on September 28, 2015 at 11:09:22
Gordon Rankin
Manufacturer

Posts: 2928
Joined: June 9, 2000
All,

27 years ago I was talked into making my first SET. I was like nobody is going to buy a sub 10W amp so I made a 845 driven by a 300B which had a gain stage of 6SL7/6188/5691 (sound familiar?) dual 5R4 rectifiers on a 80 pound chassis.

Then 2 months after that was working I ran into Mike Marx of SND tube sales at a ham fest. He had a whole box of Tung Sol square plate 45's that looked brand new. I started working with them, when a college called me and said they had some old WE91 amps and tubes and asked if I wanted them. In the box a number of NOS 300B's. Most of the 274's were crap but some 300B's were still in their WE box totally secure. After that I really didn't look back.

Some of my all time favorite amplifiers:

VT52 yea I love em, bringing silvers back to RMAF if you want to hear them.

RE604, RE134 combo, man those Tele's are sweet.

45's made over 100 different 45 amplifiers, some silver cobalts sounded great.

300B I call this the diminishing return SET tube. You really can't do better than this tube ever for SET if you want the most for the least. New Cardinal Classic at RMAF. Also the Silver Reference Cardinals.

71A love this little tube for headphone amps, preamps and dacs.

Everyone for RMAF stop by, we will have new Plasma Speakers from Vaughn Loudspeakers, running the gammit of digital audio.

Thanks,
Gordon
J. Gordon Rankin

 

RE: My 3 years to the goal of the non-compromise SET and still learning.., posted on September 22, 2015 at 21:56:55
grindstone
Audiophile

Posts: 188
Location: GMT -6
Joined: August 10, 2008
Fine thread. Not even sure where to (neutrally?) say that. It just reinforces the value of "this place", once-again. I just wanted to push a few bits out to say THANK YOU to the sponsors and participants and admins and...well, everyone!!!

Man, we get all this!!! I mean, Mikey and Davey again (but really civilly in this decade!), Papa Joe, the innocence and wondrous discovery of the OP...the regulars representing their regularity...a few daring to earnestly bridge the gaps to understand each other...pucks : ) This thread has more good-stuff per-unit-character than most.

For me, this is as good as it gets, people. Big-big-big-fun.

Please carry-on : )

Thanks-again.

PS Sincerely, Best of health to everyone! (ya friggin' geezers -- signed a fellow friggin' geezer : )

PPS Welcome and thanks to aknaydenov! Stay on your path and you'll get where you need to.

 

What transformers are you using?, posted on September 22, 2015 at 15:50:32
TonyB
Audiophile

Posts: 239
Location: Toronto
Joined: October 23, 2000
Very nice build.

What transformers are you using and which ones did you try?

 

RE: What transformers are you using?, posted on September 22, 2015 at 21:56:27
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
Hello and thanks,

A propos the transformers, I've already answered this question, so I'll paste the existing reply from me:

" The transformers you mention are the interstage and the output. They are wound by a colleague who is our national pride in signal transformer winding. He sacrificed years from his life, lots of copper wire in the thrash and lots of trial and error to get ultimate transformer performance and his stuff is really good. All of my audiophile DIYers order from him. The problem is, he is currently too busy right now to do private orders. The transformer are wound with an interleaved pattern I prefer not to go into details He also uses impregnated paper as dielectric between layers because it sounds the most natural and the bobbin wire is listened to to find out its direction before winding the transformer."

and

"My colleague wounds only on single C cores with double bobbins and uses his own special "asymmetric" interleaving from which he has achieved in one of his best projects 15 Hz at -1dB and 160KHz at -1dB. He prefers square shaped C-cores and has wound projects even on amorphs like AMCC500 from Hitachi. He has wound for tubes like 300B, 2A3, GM70, 4P1L, EL34, 6P45S, 6S33S.
He doesn't have a website, but he records data of his projects on his PC. Unfortunately, many of his measurement data were lots because of a HDD crash. He told me he had some on his new computer scattered and I will do my best to find some and post here.
He is kind of very busy right now, but he told me he plans to increase production soon. Our local audiophile community really hopes he does.
He also winds chokes with split bobbins (6,8) on single C cores. The purpose is to get low stray capacitance, which passes less noise through the choke."

Regards,
Alexander.

 

RE: My 3 years to the goal of the non-compromise SET and still learning.., posted on September 22, 2015 at 00:34:45
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
Looks great - really like the wood casing giving them a natural aesthetic.

 

Beautiful!! , posted on September 21, 2015 at 21:16:41
MannyE
Audiophile

Posts: 2088
Location: Miami Beach
Joined: March 4, 2001
I don't agree with a lot of what you are observing, but YOU are observing it and until I personally listen, I have to respect what you're saying.

What I can tell you is that the workmanship is top notch and you have a right to be proud of those! Great job!

 

Thanks, posted on September 17, 2015 at 13:37:58
Salectric
Audiophile

Posts: 1358
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 23, 2003
Thanks for taking the time to post your experiences and recommendations. This kind of sharing of information can be very helpful for others. And don't be put off by the negative comments in this thread. There is clearly a variety of perspectives among AA members, but in the long run that is a healthy thing.

 

RE: Thanks, posted on September 20, 2015 at 10:16:26
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
Thanks! I try not to be put off and I also try not to go into a debate, because I've done so in the past so much times, to find out the hard way its pointless to do so.

 

RE: Thanks, posted on September 20, 2015 at 10:32:09
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
"There isn't a person alive who can hear the difference in the direction of such a simple wire passing alternating current"

Yet I've noticed that even non-audiophile persons have noticed and have explained in great precise detail what they hear from a wire reversal passing AC current - if the system is transparent enough. People who aren't technically educated hear it the easiest - and even as a background listening music from another room.

To listen to a wire's direction, you're best going to listen in MONO mode. Take your wire and put a piece of tape at one random end. Then disconnect the positive cable going from the speaker to the amplifier and connect the "test wire".
Listen to the first direction for some time, half a minute
Swap the cable
Listen again
Swap the cable
Listen again
Swap
Listen

On the wrong direction, there is a certain "dispute" with the sounds, lack of harmony and order, something like phase distortion. This is why to listen to vocals high harmonic instruments as piano, sax, violin.
On the right direction, the sounds blend together to make a harmony, a beautiful picture and you get the impression of a soundstage and depth, even despite it's mono mode.

 

RE: Thanks, posted on September 21, 2015 at 08:11:26
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
"Take your wire and put a piece of tape at one random end. Then disconnect the positive cable going from the speaker to the amplifier and connect the "test wire". "

That part confuses me a little.


Do you mean that I don't use the positive wire of my speaker wire pair, I instead use a different single wire leaving the positive wire of my existing speaker wire pair disconneccted?

How do I make sure that the physical relationship between the single wire (that I'm reversing as I test and listen) and my existing speaker wire pair (of which I am now only using the negative conductor) doesn't change each time I conduct the test?

If the spacing and general physical orientation between my existing speaker wire pair and the single wire changes, that would cause changes to the capacitance and inductance between the two for each listening test and invalidate the test, no?



Thanks

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Thanks, posted on September 21, 2015 at 11:38:20
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
"Do you mean that I don't use the positive wire of my speaker wire pair, I instead use a different single wire leaving the positive wire of my existing speaker wire pair disconneccted?"

-Yes, exactly.

"How do I make sure that the physical relationship between the single wire (that I'm reversing as I test and listen) and my existing speaker wire pair (of which I am now only using the negative conductor) doesn't change each time I conduct the test? "

-Because you don't change anything at the existing speaker wire pair, you only handle the test wire. If the wire pair makes changes to the sound, they are static, because they shouldn't change together with the direction of the test wire.
I'm giving the advice of keeping the speaker pair, because this is the easiest way to listen to a cable's direction. You need only one piece to make the test and it's quick and simple.

"If the spacing and general physical orientation between my existing speaker wire pair and the single wire changes, that would cause changes to the capacitance and inductance between the two for each listening test and invalidate the test, no?"

-Maybe yes, so just make sure your wire positioning is similar to the previous one.

 

RE: Thanks, posted on September 20, 2015 at 11:03:28
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014
aknaydenov you seem like a nice guy, so I will take you up on this.

If I hear a difference, I promise I will tell you and this forum.

Now the phase distortion could be measured, but I might have an issue with discerning "dispute" and "lack of harmony".
Can I use sinusoidal waves instead, or do I need music?
If I need music, can you recommend a specific track to use?

What about the other wires in the system, would they counter-act the wire being tested?
Is there a way I could test a single wire without using any other wires that might interfere with the test?

Thanks for your civility.

△This message will self destruct in 10 seconds△

 

RE: Thanks, posted on September 20, 2015 at 11:12:30
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
Garg0yle

If you wish to do a test, you are most welcome.
You do need music for a test.

The best kind of cable to make a test from my experience is an unshielded RCA cable. Next comes the speaker wire.
You do not have to worry about the other cables in the system, of course if you are listening in mono mode.
I can recommend a well-recorded track with vocals and instruments that is familiar to you. The last time I listened to bobbin wire for my future PSU choke projects, I listened to John Lee Hooker - My Father Was A Jockey.
Classical music, especially operas are also a good choice.

 

RE: Thanks, posted on September 20, 2015 at 11:23:27
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014
OK I will get back to you.

I will probably make a jig and cut a length of wire in half, reverse one and have them connected to a switch so that I can quickly compare them.

I hope the switch is not going to cause a problem, in which case I may have to repeat the test with the switch reversed.

△This message will self destruct in 10 seconds△

 

RE: Thanks, posted on September 20, 2015 at 11:36:12
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
Although the switch is going to degrade the sound a bit, I think it's still okay to do the test with it.

Good luck with the test!

 

RE: Thanks, posted on September 20, 2015 at 11:45:16
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014
Thanks, I will get back to you.
△This message will self destruct in 10 seconds△

 

Thanks for Posting!, posted on September 17, 2015 at 11:04:24
Sebrof
Audiophile

Posts: 634
Location: AusTX
Joined: July 12, 2002
Very cool amp
Beautiful workmanship
Nice pictures
Good history and background
Interesting conclusions
Schematic

Thanks for keeping things fresh.

Bravo and carry on!!

 

Did you try multiple loudspeakers?, posted on September 17, 2015 at 06:54:13
I do run into many amp builders who forget to do so.

 

"every wire I use is first listened on a hi-end system and I find its direction by ear", posted on September 16, 2015 at 19:23:55
Chip647
Audiophile

Posts: 2652
Location: The South
Joined: December 24, 2012
Ouch. I feel for people like this. But is self delusion worse than the disillusionment from society.

 

This post requires a huge dose of skepticism, posted on September 16, 2015 at 12:15:20
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10047
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
"grid resistors on high gm tubes steal from the sound...

if wood, the grain direction is very important. I found that it sounds more natural if the grain is perpendicular to the listener....

directionality goes even to resistors ... they just sound better in one way and worse in the other..."

Sorry, but comments like these are clearly the result of an overactive imagination.





 

confirmation bias , posted on September 17, 2015 at 06:51:11
Easy to fall for it while DIY.

 

+2 nt, posted on September 16, 2015 at 20:32:23
Caucasian Blackplate
Industry Professional

Posts: 8313
Location: Seattle
Joined: June 18, 2004
nt

 

+1 NT, posted on September 16, 2015 at 18:47:44
Alpha Al
Industry Professional

Posts: 2958
Location: N. Carolina
Joined: February 16, 2004
Contributor
  Since:
December 3, 2015
/

 

RE: This post requires a huge dose of skepticism, posted on September 16, 2015 at 13:03:00
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
If you wish to think so. These are my experiences. and I'm also used to other people's points of view.

 

Ignore the doubters!, posted on September 20, 2015 at 08:04:05
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004
And I might even be one on some of your points, so ignore me too!

Some will say some of this isn't "scientific," but scientists do experiments and that's what you did.

You are the one who gets to decide.

Nobody can read a basic electronics book or collected audio forum wisdom and KNOW what sounds good, from a distant location with zero experience of the system in question.

I get in huge battles often because people who think they are big scientists don't know much about how science works, especially when human perception and aesthetics come into the picture.

Keep up the good work and maintain your direction. Hands and ears on work will get you where you want to go.



------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

RE: Ignore the doubters!, posted on September 21, 2015 at 23:51:58
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
one of the basic tenets of science is that of repeatability.
If YOU do something and get a given result, than I should, under the same conditions with the same materials get the SAME result.

While you must support the 'experimenters' results, you must take it all with a little grain of salt until verified.
I don't know what it is but it's not science that I see here. While the OP does list some general principles, which is good, others do not agree with them, so back to square 1.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Ignore the doubters!, posted on February 12, 2016 at 13:43:31
horn kid
Audiophile

Posts: 128
Joined: November 2, 2014
Finally some plausible explanation about why things sound different......

"........chassis material influences the sound ; metals, woods ; if wood, the grain direction is very important. I found that it sounds more natural if the grain is perpendicular to the listener."

Now that I know one of the elusive keys to great sound. I'm off to the workshop....

 

RE: Ignore the doubters!, posted on September 22, 2015 at 06:14:19
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004
There is no repeatibily in this kind of research. The context, which modern social scientists will identify as the primary influence on meaning and perception, will be different every time.

Music, where in the song a switch is made, how cold is the room, did the guys wife bitch at him before he left about leaving records on the flow, how much does he hate the Rebecca Pidgeon song they keep playing, etc etc.

Even if nothing is changed, do the test a few times over and there is learning involved. people learn how to do the test, hence things are different.

The results may be repeatable but the test conditions are not!

In audio testing, we have a situation where all variables are not identified and controlled for. And some of them change each time.

Consequently, there are no grounds to extend the results beyond the unique conditions of a particular test, and we don't even fully understand the conditions in that unique example.

This is BAD SCIENCE. It should not be science and it will never be.

A different research paradigm is required, one which recognizes the unique situation of listeners and listening. The results will not fit into the logical positivist concept of science, but they may have some actual reelvance. Open ended interviews maybe be one such methodology.

Treating people like billiard balls in a physics experiment does not work. Bad science.

------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

RE: Ignore the doubters!, posted on September 20, 2015 at 09:27:18
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014
Mr. Roberts, you are not doing us any favors.

It is not right to take a jab at people who rely on physics while at the same time not state what it is your doubt about this amplifier.

This is coming from a person who really respects you.

I have read basic electronics, collected audio forum wisdom (some of which you have written) and have been able to predict, with reasonable accuracy improvements in sound before breaking out the soldering iron.

Also in fairness before typing this, I placed three poker chips on one amplifier and three Popsicle sticks on the other.
Lo and behold they sound exactly the same, I even rotated them 90 degrees.
So where does this leave us now?

I understand you had a battle at DIYAudio that got moved to the lounge. We are not DIYAudio, I like to think that this forum is more evolved and sophisticated despite the eccentricities of some members.

"Some will say some of this isn't "scientific," but scientists do experiments and that's what you did."

-Generally scientists don't falsify their observations to gain some sort of mystic street credit, as most would expect that their peers are going to try and reproduce their claims.
There isn't a person alive who can hear the difference in the direction of such a simple wire passing alternating current.

Nice to see you posting here again, I wish you would post more often.
I haven't seen Nanana around for a while either, he is also interesting individual.

△This message will self destruct in 10 seconds△

 

RE: Ignore the doubters!, posted on September 20, 2015 at 10:23:09
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004
I am not simply rabble rousing, although I may belong in the lounge at DiyA on the subject of science! There is some crazy thuggish groupthink on some forums, although AA is more open minded as are many on DiyA, which is why I occasionally pop in.

This is an area I have spent my life studying. Tens of thousands of hours, 35 semesters in university, 100s of books, tons of audio gear, and more interaction with working audio people worldwide than most can claim.

So if you want to believe in trendy in-group buzzwords from an audio forum over me, go ahead. No skin off my nose.

Ask Dave Slagle to tell you the story where he intentionally reversed the direction of one wire in a batch of coils he made for Pierre Sprey at Mapleshade, without telling them...and they caught it!

I first heard about directionality of wires from Pierre 20 years ago. I have no doubt that the worked hard to develop this acuity and he seems to be consistent in his ability to identify it.

Pierre's design partner was/is? an actual working physicist in a top government research facility, by the way,

Personally, I don't worry about this and I will never put a wood chip on a transformer. I have bigger problems than these.

When I discuss science and its role in knowledge systems, I am speaking from a position of a reasonable level of education and understanding. And decades of fieldwork observing audiophiles and their work.

Empirically-based, experimental studies such as that undertaken by the OP can yield a useful body of practical knowledge. Moreso than abstract physics discussions in absence of any direct experience, I would venture.

It's a complicated world out there, especially when music listening is the subject and goal.

We can "know that" something works without "knowing how" something works. Most of our knowledge is like that.

When I read the OPs post, it seems he came a long way from zero, with a lot of work and found out a lot of very useful and valid ideas.

So, I think I'm doing y'all a favor by cautioning against sweeping generalizations to specific cases built on words on a page or screen.

You just don't appreciate it yet.

Listen, the role of a "model." which is what the textbook case is, is to compare it to reality and look for differences and gaps...and, if found, you adjust the model! Not the other way around.

In this case, music amplification, I think it is reasonable that listening experience should be included.

Why do you think I am on audio forums talking about this? If I want to fight, I can go have it out with my insane neighbor.

PS--And I would exercise double caution in making "scientific" claims about human music listening, because this isn't a science and never will be. Electronics is a science, if far more complex than electronics 101 would have one believe, but what people do with it is not.

What I react to is using bogus notions like "expectation bias" as a priori shoot-downs. This is something that needs to be proven in specific cases, even if you buy the theoretical reasoning, which I do not in the form it is given.

Isn't it the case that a generalized belief in expectation bias is itself an expectation bias? Think about it.

Anyway, I'm happy to share some of my hard-earned academic knowledge and save y'all $250k in Ivy League tuition.

I support what the OP is doing and congratulate him on his work, even if, as I plainly stated, I personally don't buy some of it. How can I say he is "wrong" if it is right for him. I'll bet that system sounds really good!

BTW, my good friend Nanana has also studied philosophy of science and the human sciences so he would be generally in agreement with me.

I'm just trying to hip you all to major trends in 20th century intellectual history that are being completely bypassed in most audio discussions I encounter, especially the ones that purport to be "serious."

Read my sig and have a nice day.


------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

RE: Ignore the doubters!, posted on September 21, 2015 at 23:56:24
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
What is the role of repeatability in your model?
I think it is a very basic idea which has been proven to work.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Ignore the doubters!, posted on September 22, 2015 at 06:17:32
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004
There is no exact repeatability in human research. See comments elsewhere.

This is an idea borrowed from traditional conceptions of empirical physics that cannot apply to live thinking creative humans.

------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

RE: Ignore the doubters!, posted on September 22, 2015 at 09:29:24
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
What than, is the role of Statistics?
Too much is never enough

 

Stats, posted on September 22, 2015 at 09:54:25
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004
Statisics is a useful _descriptive_ tool in many applications. Purely descriptive.

You can not reliably establish causality with statistics, although it can point out unrecognized irregularites in method and assumptions. There can always be a co-occurring factor or variable that is shielded from view

Establishing causality, in other words "explanation" in cases where the use of the notion is appropriate, relies on control of all variables and research design, not the tallying up method.

Statistics has no strict predictive value beyond the data set is is used on. Anything can happen in the future.

Where it is counterproductive in listening studies is that each individual response and experience is translated into a generic digit for tabulation. The uniqueness of the data and its connection to context is erased, so that you can do the "general" calculation and come up with general statements about what was observed to occur.

This makes the use of statistics a serious impediment to understanding. The explanation as far, as it can be inferred through analysis, is not in the yes/no handwave, it is in the minds of the people and their complex, recursive relationship the situation of the experience.

This gets thrown out in statistical studies.

There is a place for statistics in empirical description, but the way it is used in human studies is often very destructive and block any possibility of coming to terms with the culturally-embedded event it is used on.

In archaeology, I might use Statistics to analyse the distribution of trash at an ancient occupation site to see if there are any patterns I need to look at, but it won't tell me much about the trash itself, the lives of people who threw it there, their cultural attitudes toward trash, or why they chose those spots to dump. but it might be a useful way to structure some empirical data to help guide my interpretation into conformance with the empirical evidence.

Does this make any sense? Statistics is generalized empirical description in short form. Is it useful? Depends on the task at hand.

It won't tell me what any one persons listening experience is/was, if that is the goal.





------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

I don't understand your argument!, posted on September 22, 2015 at 08:29:13
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
As I said above, you seem yo be identifying the flaws of human perception. For example the idea that what you ate or hearing bad news right before a DBT will skew the results.

I agree and I think most other skeptics here do as well.

But this just further proves reports of these unfounded electrical phenomena are based in the flaws of human perception.

Electrical tests for wire directionality are repeatable and quantifiable. So it seems that's all we have at this time to go on because in your own words, DBT's are no good.

 

Try this one, posted on September 22, 2015 at 08:45:13
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004
> But this just further proves reports of these unfounded electrical
> phenomena are based in the flaws of human perception.
>

Not flaws, "variability." This is a feature, not a flaw!


> Electrical tests for wire directionality are repeatable and quantifiable.
> So it seems that's all we have at this time to go on because in your own
> words, DBT's are no good.
>


Yep, it is an uncertain world out there, Gusser.

Isn't it exciting and interesting?

You have no idea what empirical research is actually out there, so don't
front.

In the field of human research, I happen to be a highly-trained expert.
By audio forum standards, I am Carl Sagan in social research and
anthropology around here, but in all modesty, I can hang anywhere with
just about anybody in this discipline.

You seem to be arguing from a position of prior belief and some sort of
curmudgeonly technician philosophy alone.

What would it take to convince you to change you mind? I suspect nothing
will.

That is not a scientific attitude. That is fundamentalist religion.

------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

RE: Try this one, posted on September 22, 2015 at 10:34:39
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
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"That is not a scientific attitude. That is fundamentalist religion."

No, you have that backwards. It is the wire directionality folks who are of religion.

My scientific attitude should be quite obvious. I want to see credible evidence that wire has directionality in audio and video circuits. Beyond that I don't even see any evidence it is a factor in any area of electronics.

You keep pressing ME to do the research. Well I am not qualified to do that level of physics. No more are deep theoretical physicists qualified to design practical circuits for solving real problems. So it's up to them to publish the evidence. If and when I see it, I will decide to apply it in my field. I think I speak for the EE's as a large group here.

When your poster boy scientists provide evidence that wire directionality can improve electronic circuits, I have no doubt this work will be applied where advantageous.

 

Education and growth, posted on September 22, 2015 at 12:01:43
Joe Roberts
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Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004
>No, you have that backwards. It is the wire directionality folks who are of religion.

They at least are going on experience, you are guessing and projecting in the abstract based on a static worldview.

Sounds like "Gimme that Old Time Religion" to me!


>>My scientific attitude should be quite obvious.

Your scientific pretensions you mean. You have not done exhaustive research in any way, practical or literature based. Science is not only applying published research to cases while sitting in your bedroom thinking about it, even if one has read widely.

Theory building and testing is a far more interactive and complex process. It must start with ground-up experiments not published papers. Most science is working from particular cases to hypothetical general statements. You cut that part out entirely.

A study of listening effects of wire directionality should start with listening for this effect, no? First you must investigate and then see whether there is any evidence or not. I gave you the chance to audition some AudioNote silver litz on loan and you weaseled out on the opportunity to possibly confront your untested assumptions.

This is not the attitude of somebody who wants to learn and do science. This is entrenchment in a professional society mentality bunker.

I am not sure about your understanding of the theoretical basis of scientific inquiry, which is why I asked if you have any actual education in this area?

No, right? That's fair because few people, including EEs, have.

You likely learned what I learned in high school physics, Logical Positivism, aka lcgical empiricism, aka lab methods, probably without going into any of the serious deficiencies of the paradigm. Read up on Vienna Circle Positivism and see if it sounds familiar. It will.

And note that the Positvists say that there is no knowledge without EXPERIENCE.

Then read the critiques and waffling on this position since the 1930s when the last holdouts of the strong statement were thrown into exile by the War. Relativity and quantum mechanics dealt this a death blow decades before that. They relied heavily on the early Logic work of Wittgenstein, well after he repudiated much of its import by shifting to a more cultural basis for knowledge. Look it up. Read about it. Learn what it is.

Nowadays, this classical Positivist position is primarily of historical interest in Philosophy class, because it has been largely superseded by theories that match reality and the actual enterprise of scientific investigation much more closely.

I will say that it works reasonably well to structure and get work done in most electronics labs, because that is a simple practical scenario, but it is not the final word on science.

You may be an engineer and good at what you do, but your logical methods and approaches are questionable and I don't think you have thought them through or even know exactly what they are and what the implications are.

This is not a personal attack on you, Gusser, it is an institutional and societal critique.

I would say that you have a "technical attitude," not a scientific attitude, although you might like science. And there is nothing intrinsically wrong with a technical attitude unless you are stretching beyond the limits of what this perspective can let you know and do with any reliable validity.


>I want to see credible evidence that wire has directionality in audio >and video circuits. Beyond that I don't even see any evidence it is a >factor in any area of electronics.

We are not on a video forum. I hardly even watch TV.

Have you really looked for evidence?

Know how many EEs listened and heard differences and accept them, in lieu of scientific explanation?

The smart, inquisitive ones anyway. The actual scientists. Those who want to learn.

My friend John Camille thought this was all complete nonsense, then he listened and heard a wire difference, Until he died, he was "beefing up" and tweaking spectrum analyzers to try to measure what he heard. Camille was one of the best engineers I ever knew and a dedicated, super hardcore investigator. He would experiment a lot then read a paper or two, maybe. I miss that guy.

Remember there is "knowing that" and then there is "knowing how." If you had to read a journal article to verify everything you do in day to day life, you would still be getting dressed for lunch in 1974.

You have no background, are not doing any focused research or testing of any kind, and you are waiting for an definitive article on a precise topic article to show up in one of your subscribed journals that is never going to appear in that journal.

You are right, you are not qualified to speak on the issue.

If I were seriously interested, I would read as much about the wider science of electronic materials research as I could get my hands on and see if there is anything in that corpus that might shed some light on the question. You might have to make studied inferences and careful correlations but there might be something out there of potential relevance.

This is what researchers do. You look at similar or potentially relevant studies to see if any findings possibly extend to the question you are investigating, then incorporate those ideas into your project for further evaluation.

You won't find anything that exactly answers this query definitely and for all time in an Intro to AC and DC Circuits textbook or Journal of the SMPTE, most likely. There is work to be done!

Belden, a sober wire manufacturer, sells oxygen free "audio grade" wire...why do they make that? It is just wire, right? Call them up and ask.

Call George Cardas, a practicing wire maker who owns a factory if he can point you to any measurable effects from extrusion on grain structure of wire. He might know about something you don't. There is no question that annealing processes mess with grain structure. Maybe he can tell you something about that since he works with the industry all of the time. Sure he has vested interests but he seems like a smart guy who would be open to sharing what he knows on these questions.

I'm not here to duke it out with staunch curmudgeons, I'm advocating continuing education and exploration of our world, including how science and human research work so that we can employ these tools more usefully.

Much of the received wisdom and the stale attitudes surrounding us are impediments to understanding and development of our audio universes.

So far, I'd have to score it on research and investigation:
Mapleshade 1, Gusser 0.





------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

RE: Dr. Bae, posted on September 22, 2015 at 12:57:14
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
Well I did initially think this Dr. Bae you referred to was some top university research scientist with deep government grants to play with.

Alas, as with traditional audiophile company hype, he turns out to just be one of your two staff members building audiophile gear. I am not discounting what ever knowledge and abilities he may have. But you could have disclosed his true professional employment for us.

 

RE: Dr. Bae, posted on September 22, 2015 at 13:43:18
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004
I plainly stated that Dr. Bae is an engineering partner at Silbatone.

He is a really creative and smart engineer, genius-level. Very meticulous and "scientific" but he can solve practical problems in a lightning fast manner.


He does have a PhD in materials science and solid state physics though. He didn't like the jobs and hustle in professional research, especially in a Korean corporate setting, and he really loves audio. Audio design is his dream job and he is great at it.

I also got to meet and talk to a number of his PhD friends still actively working in the scientific end of the field. These guys know way more about the subject of conductors than we can ever dream. People like that are the ones to ask if there is any known phenomenon that might be edging in here.

Anyway, good to see you doing research. Keep it up!

------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

RE: Education and growth, posted on September 22, 2015 at 12:31:47
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
This is just more of your bullshit as it pertains to electrical engineering.

According to your bio, you are currently a salesman for Silbatone Acoustics? I am arguing with an audiophile products salesman here?

You are quite correct. I have no background, education, or experience in these social human perception issues you speak of. Nor do most EE's.

You mock EE's as a group. You keep emphasizing proper research methods yet you still provide nothing in the form of proof.

You use these strawman examples. Yes, Belden sells audio wire. I never disputed that. What they don't sell is any recommendations of directionality in any of their product lines, and I know their line very well.

You can ramble on all you want. But the professional electronics industry is not listening. That I know. When I see the major wire manufactures providing evidence of wire directionality I will listen. Until then it's junk science.


 

Just to be clear, Gusser... aned a final comment, posted on September 22, 2015 at 14:28:55
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004
>>You mock EE's as a group.

Just to be clear, my critique of engineering relates to the observed tendency audio forum engineers have to speak out strongly with great asssumed authority on subjects that they actually know nothing about.

Lawyers might do the same thing! ;op

EEs are pretty good at practical electronics, some of them anyway. But there seems to be no clearly-addressed notion that people are on the end user side in many discussions.

The problem may be that EE is hard and takes time, so there is no luxury to study science theory or other subjects which many would consider part of a good, well-rounded liberal arts education.

Maybe at super intellectual schools, EEs get a whiff of some of this material. I sort of doubt it though. From what I see, engineering students live in their own colony within universities.

I can handle somebody not knowing obscure academic material they never studied...until people attack others with great indignation, based on very poorly formed notions of the "science" and social science they are using for ammunition.

This is socially destructive behavior and a disservice to all.

I feel like I am doing YOU a favor, Gusser, at some pain to myself, although I know you don't appreciate it. If you have a "scientific attitude", study what that means in depth and you will be more fulfilled in your vocation and life generally.

Free your mind and your ass will follow. I believe that.

I'd still be in school now, learning more about our cultural knowledge systems, except that my eyesight is shot and reading non-stop is no longer fun. I put in 35 semesters, so I suppose this is my life's work, overlapping with audio education. Neither gig pays squat.

I actually came up with some useful intellectual frameworks for myself in the course of this discussion. it helps my research to learn what people think and what questions they have about these methods...and what they eagerly buy as science with no solid reasoning behind it whatsoever.

I also developed an interesting cultural way to look at the kinds of tweakery under discussion, which I'll put out for further discussion someday.

I'll gladly spend time with anybody who wants to learn something I can help with. PM me if you don't want to get into the OK Corral gunslinging.

That's why I popped in here, to add some hopefully useful thoughts, but I gotta go. Out of town visitors tomorrow, not to mention the Pope in town!



------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

RE: Just to be clear, Gusser... aned a final comment, posted on September 22, 2015 at 15:45:22
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
With all your deep knowledge of this subject to which you say most educated engineers lack, why aren't you on a lecture circuit?

Why aren't you a top consultant to fortune 100 technology companies?

Why aren't you deep in university funded research on this subject.

You did say you were the Carl Sagen of this subject?

Why are you a sales rep for a tiny audiophile company with sales I estimate of less than 2 million yearly?

Are you retired from all that excitement and this just now a hobby job?

 

My charmed existence, posted on September 29, 2015 at 06:41:06
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004
Academic jobs suck nowadays.

I was in a second PhD program a few years ago and saw graduates taking adjunct jobs paying $2200 a class teaching Anthro 101 and putting 50k miles a year on their cars chasing crumbs at different universities. I am too old and lazy for that.

My classmates from the Anthro PhD program at Yale in the 80s all have major professorial gigs now, those who stuck out the hard times, but I chose to become an audio publisher instead.

Yeah, maybe I was a fool but I had an excellent ride and still enjoy it.

I have the best job in the world, I think. Friends all over the planet. A great life.

The company I am associated with has an unlimited budget and values research and public education over sales. A very idealistic operation.

You have no idea how privileged my position is. I go places you can't imagine...like I consulted with Samsung on speakers at their Advanced Multimedia Lab in Suwon, Korea a few months ago. You're a video guy, Gusser. Did they send a limo around to the Ritz-Carlton to pick you up for a consult?

Thanks to my unorthodox life, I was able to take my kid to school and pick him up every day when he was little. I saw my dad a few times a week at that age, because he worked night work. That alone was a major life benefit.

And I was able to pursue many years of extra graduate education that someone tied to the millstone in a corporate job couldn't easily pull off. That's how I learned subjects that would be total luxury for a working stiff in EE.

But just because I'm an audio bum, don't fully discount my knowledge in my "other" field. Actually, for me they are all one field.

This educational outreach on forums is all pro-bono work. Frankly, it is as painful for me as it is for you!

However, I am simply trying to contribute to the growth of understanding and beat down Babylon where necessary.




------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

RE: My charmed existence, posted on October 1, 2015 at 11:52:16
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
This is all hearsay. Since you mentioned Yale and the approximate dates of attendance perhaps I should spend a few bucks and pull the transcripts?

Maybe all this anthropology stuff you ramble on about is of some use in other fields. But I see no evidence or application in practical electrical engineering.

Now you can say all you want about the under educated EE community but again all I see are the ramblings of a sales rep for yet another minuscule audiophile products company. Yup, conventional engineering knowledge is all wrong. You know better! Except that nobody in any position of authority is listening.

And yes, I too was flown to Japan first class by Sony in the 90s to consult on a broadcast editing system we were considering in a substantial purchase / alpha test program. Big deal! A lot of EE travel world wide for consultation to major electronic concerns.

 

RE: My charmed existence, posted on October 2, 2015 at 07:28:28
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004



Send me ten bucks and I'll scan my diplomas, but they are in Latin, which you probably did not learn in EE.

What hearsay? Samsung? They called jc morrison and I in back in June to brainstorm ideas on how to up their game on the next generation of home theater gear. This was a personal favor to the future chairman/heir to Samsung Group who heard some of the gear we make and WE speakers and realized that we know things his lead engineers do not. I heard that we blew their minds.

I did not say that ALL conventional EE knowledge is wrong but a lot of it is sure CONVENTIONAL, i.e, established by convention, communal agreement.

These conventions and the value systems that spawn them have massive impact on the lives of end users.

And how we know what we think we know should be rather important to a scientist, one would think.

But if you don't wanna know, you don't have to learn. Maybe it is better if you don't understand and just slog through at the bench.

I fear this is all over your head, Gusser, but I hope some folks are getting something out of the discussion. Sorry to use you as an object lesson but you jumped into the role.

Hey here's a pic of me at Yale, back when I was not only an advanced student of scientific epistemology and a licensed ham operator, but also a serious chick magnet. Just found this ID in a box of old tubes. Fortunately, there were some real good tubes in the box as well.

As offered previously, I can document and add references for everything I put forth in this thread. Audio testing, as we "know" it doesn't have a leg to stand on as a scientific procedure and if somebody out there can refute my methodological objections, I would honestly love to hear it.



------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

RE: My charmed existence, posted on October 2, 2015 at 08:26:56
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
I'm sure the janitorial staff at Yale has the exact same ID card!

You come in here to an audio forum spewing anthropology theories that have nothing to do with any field of electrical engineering.

You put yourself on the same plateau as Carl Sagen - how arrogant can one get!

"Chick magnet"? Your ego is endless!

Yet all we have documented is your current position as a sales rep for some miniscule audiophile vendor.

"Audio testing, as we "know" it doesn't have a leg to stand on as a scientific procedure and if somebody out there can refute my methodological objections, I would honestly love to hear it."

That is merely your opinion. And it's refuted every day. Outside of these snake oil shops, audio gear is designed and tested using standard test equipment and procedures. And the listening tests when formally done are again per scientific procedure. You think DBT is flawed. Again that's your opinion. Yet DBT remains a highly accepted practice.

Yes this stuff you ramble on about is over my head. I am not trained in that field. Yet I am convinced designing electronic circuits and systems fit for commercial application is over your head. And heart surgery is over both our heads. What does any of that prove?

I'm not impressed. And I don't think I'm alone here.

 

Ultimately..., posted on October 2, 2015 at 08:46:24
PakProtector
Audiophile

Posts: 12364
Joined: May 14, 2002
I think the 'testing' that shows unlikely outcomes, and 'I have no idea why that is' answers( that when checked against high-precision test gear shows no difference) can be addressed by the point JR is trying to make. That I personally aply that POV to unlikely things like a carbon film resistor 'breaking in' is of no consequence...LOL
cheers,
Douglas

Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 2, 2015 at 10:46:35
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
He is just promoting alternate science theories that audio cannot be properly tested under any circumstances.

What a convenient model for an audiophile product salesman!

Problem is nobody else seems to be buying into it. There are standard test procedures and specifications, both electronic and acoustical, for audio equipment performance the industry adheres to. Joe thinks this is all wrong, he and only he knows better. Fine, he can go bark at a tree!

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 2, 2015 at 17:33:40
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
"...What a convenient model for an audiophile product salesman!

Problem is nobody else seems to be buying into it..."

I wish that were the case! Unfortunately, it seems that a significant percentage of people, although probably still a minority, do subscrbe to some of these ideas. It is as if there is an innate human need to look for mysteries where there are none, and seek complexity when there is simplicity.

A home stereo amplifier is really a very humble and simple system, and the technological demands are very modest compared with far more complex situations where science has overcome tough challenges. The frequencies are low, the currents are low, the voltages are low. And yet, there are claims that there are deep mysteries that transcend science, We are told that there are audible phenomena that cannot be measured with instruments, and that cannot be detected by means of objective listening tests.

As a physicist, I tend to favour simple explanations over complex and contrived ones. There is a beauty in simplicity. The phenomenon requiring explanation is that some people claim to hear effects that can neither be measured nor verified in double-blind tests. It is also well documented that the human brain is highly susceptible to expectation bias, and is easily fooled by a variety of sensory illusions.

The simple explanation that is consistent with all the facts would appear to be that the "unverifiable" sonic effects are in fact imagined by the listener who reports them. This would seem to be overwhelmingly more plausible than any contrived explanation about how the listener always loses the ability to detect the alleged effect if it is put to the test. The one obvious way to refute this would be if an alternative, objective, way of showing that the double-blind tests were unreliable could be devised. But as far as I am aware, no superior alternative has been proposed. In the absence of such an alternative, one is left feeling that the attack on double-blind testing is analogous to the attack a spoon-bender or a mind reader would make on any serious attempt to verify their abilities. And, furthermore, many of those who claim that double-blind testing is untrustworthy are the very people who have the most to lose if it is trusted.

Chris

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 4, 2015 at 10:49:35
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
I should have been more specific.

Nobody in the professional electronics industry buys into these audiophile theories such as wire directionality.

I quite agree many untrained hobbyist audiophiles in fact do.

Your comment about the sophistication of an audio amplifier, better yet an SET, is dead on. Most of these folks have no idea as to the levels electrical engineering has reached. If there was any substance to wire directionality, we would have documented proof as well as commercial application.

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 2, 2015 at 21:40:37
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
What I don't understand in human behavior is the urge to debate.

Like every other audio equipment builder, I'm walking my path and these are my experiences. You don't have to agree with me if you don't want to. I'm not commercially directed either, I don't have an important need to make someone believe in my claims.
Analogically I don't agree with many EE's and their projects in the web space, but I keep it quiet.

Regards,
Alexander.

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 3, 2015 at 20:40:55
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
"What I don't understand in human behavior is the urge to debate."

To me, as a physicist, that seems an extraordinary remark. My lifeblood centres around enquiring, questioning, debating. If we stopped asking questions, we would dry up, we would cease to function. If someone makes an assertion, we want to challenge it, subject it to scrutiny, look for flaws or loopholes. Not from any malicious intent, but simply from the desire to get closer to an understanding of the subject.

If someone asserts that they hear some particular phenomenon, it is just second nature for a physicist, or any person with a scientific training, I think, to challenge by supposing the converse, testing how one really knows that what is being claimed is actually true.

That is the weakness, to my mind, of the criticism of double-blind testing. No convincing evidence of its unreliability seems to have been presented. And commonly, those who disparage it have a lot to lose if it were accepted as being a valid experimental technique.

Chris

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 4, 2015 at 05:32:39
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
For now it seems the only present way to prove wire directionality is a blind test.
The problem with ordinary blind tests - they destroy the intimate contact you need with music, when you're doing a serious listen. I'm giving some examples:

1. You are probably surrounded by people you don't know, you don't like or who make you anxious. The best way to be tested is to be left alone in the listening room. Only one person who is your best friend must swap the equipment and stop the music.

2. The words "blind test". A test? Knowing you will participate in this kind of activity already gives you anxiety. Music is to be nowhere near a test. By doing this, you mustn't feel in a exam activity, but in a friendly, fun one.

3. You are probably given to listen between many swaps. There is a problem - each individual brain has its limit of musical saturation. After reaching a certain number of listening, the brain gets tired and doesn't care anymore what you're listening. 20 swaps per one day is extremely much. I consider 4 swaps per day a maximum.

4. The "tested" audiophile individual must be in a listening mood. No test attitude, not the slightest traces of anxiety, stress, hunger, aches. These impart the listening quality of the listener.

5. The individual should be tested on his own system, mainly because it's the same system he has claimed the existence of audible differences due to "unusual" interventions.

Let's say I succeed of performing this kind of blind test with all these criteria, how will I prove it's not counterfeit to you?

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 4, 2015 at 11:03:01
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
You still have not given any opinion on the fundamental question.

Why is wire directionality not recognized by the electronics industry as a whole? And I'm not looking for examples form tiny audiophile garage operations. We have billion dollar players in this industry. Show me a professional audio electronics (not wire and cables) product manufacture that promotes wire directionality. Where is the documented evidence of this phenomenon peer reviewed?

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 4, 2015 at 12:50:44
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
Cable direction in my opinion is a phenomenon worth of a whole life research.

I am still currently thinking how to measure it. My first hypothesis would be that a cable passes AC current assymetrically and it's having a crossover point, distorting one half-wave. When reversing the direction, it could distort the half-wave of the other polarity. If this is true, this could be measured. Phase distortion measurements should be done also.

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 4, 2015 at 13:08:34
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
May I ask what is your technical / engineering background beyond the three years of hobbyist amp building you mentioned?

Have you any formal study into AC circuits? You are describing diode effects, do you know how a diode functions on an electron level?

BTW, Formal does not necessarily mean university. This information is widely available in books and even on line. The information is out there for free.

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 4, 2015 at 12:43:08
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
gusser,

For the same reason mentioned here - BS claim.
How do you expect a global group of EEs to believe and furthermore apply the direction of a cable?
There isn't an evidence yet as I know, but I doubt someone has done any serious research on it. Let's face it - highly educated scientists have much "better" things to do than hi-fi audio.

Some hi-fi cable manufacturers like Furutech, Neotech and Audioquest do put arrows on their cables. Although it could be thought as client-bait BS, personally I'm telling that even the cheapest bobbin wire has an optimal direction.

Also with the tendency of selling compressed, artificially recorded music to the mass public using compressed formats, the last thing most recording studio engineers would thing of is the cable direction.

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 4, 2015 at 13:04:45
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
"Let's face it - highly educated scientists have much "better" things to do than hi-fi audio."

Well yes, I agree there is some truth to that statement. What difference does it make to the average MP3 download?

But this isn't music going through a wire, it's electrical energy. And there are far more critical and sensitive areas of electronics than baseband audio. In fact baseband audio is the lowest end of the entire EM spectrum.

So don't you agree while there is little incentive in consumer audio to study wire directionality, there could be huge gains in other fields of electronics.

If this was a known phenomenon, even of it had no commercial application, we would have discovered it by now.

You grossly underestimate the current state of electrical engineering knowledge. You have been experimenting with audio amps for three years now? Do you honestly beleive this has never been questioned or analyzed in the past 100 years?

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 4, 2015 at 13:34:40
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
"But this isn't music going through a wire, it's electrical energy. And there are far more critical and sensitive areas of electronics than baseband audio. In fact baseband audio is the lowest end of the entire EM spectrum."

Yes. And maybe something else? Let's not think of it so simple.

"So don't you agree while there is little incentive in consumer audio to study wire directionality, there could be huge gains in other fields of electronics."

It could be.

"You grossly underestimate the current state of electrical engineering knowledge. You have been experimenting with audio amps for three years now? Do you honestly beleive this has never been questioned or analyzed in the past 100 years?"

I do not. But what I'm sure of is that large quantities of research information aren't available to the general public. In the meantime, lots of research is going on. Maybe this phenomenon was questioned, even before 100 years. But maybe it didn't lead to measurable results back then. As it does now. And so it was maybe abandoned as idea.

"If this was a known phenomenon, even of it had no commercial application, we would have discovered it by now."

I'm not sure. It's the human skepticism that prevents us.

"Have you any formal study into AC circuits? You are describing diode effects, do you know how a diode functions on an electron level?"

Of course I'm describing a diode effect. Why not imagine the wire as PN junctions connected in series. Impuritiy like copper oxide II is considered a P semiconductor.

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 4, 2015 at 16:29:52
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
OK if the wire had PN junctions, what is the forward voltage? Once you exceed the forward voltage drop, the diode is switched on. Now consider the noise floor of your amplifier. The forward voltage of the diode must be above the noise floor or you would not hear any distortion caused by said diode.

Furthermore we often hear that one must have a very resolving amplifier to hear these effects. Well an SET amp first has very poor PSRR and the same hard core audiophiles that use these most often insist on AC filament heating. So the noise floor of an SET is anything but "resolving".

Furthermore if these random doides in wire resulting from sloppy manufacturing exist, what makes them oriented in the same polarity? Surely some would be forward and some reversed. Now how does that work?

These are just two problems with the micro diode theory. There are many more.

How do you even know what research is going on. What technical journals do you receive? Why would the discovery of wire directionality be some secret? Why would the engineering community suppress it? The costs would be minuscule, both in wire manufacturing as well as application. All that needs to be done is to add an arrow symbol to all the other lettering that is now ink-jetted onto the wire as its extruded. The end users would merely need to follow the arrow. Automated machines could easily do this. So again why would industry suppress such a low cost improvement as labeling wire direction?

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 4, 2015 at 20:52:22
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
"How do you even know what research is going on. What technical journals do you receive? Why would the discovery of wire directionality be some secret? Why would the engineering community suppress it? The costs would be minuscule, both in wire manufacturing as well as application. All that needs to be done is to add an arrow symbol to all the other lettering that is now ink-jetted onto the wire as its extruded. The end users would merely need to follow the arrow. Automated machines could easily do this. So again why would industry suppress such a low cost improvement as labeling wire direction?"

I know little and I am sure of it. What about you?

"Why would the discovery of wire directionality be some secret?"

Why not? Who cares about it? What if it's only apparent in music and insignificant in the other domains.
And finally, why would I care if the world industry suppresses such a phenomenon? It seems they don't need it. But it works for me. It works for my audio colleagues. It seems to work for some audiophiles from the whole world.

And yet, why are you trying to portray the current technology as so great? Did we humans learn everything we can? No, we have no idea what surprises are left for us to reveal. So why be so confident? What if many things we learned in physics, electronics are BS? What if we are trying to simplify a complicated world through our prism of limited knowledge?

I agree audio is mostly based on EE, but IMHO mostly - not entirely. To achieve further improvements that are unreachable from only EE, oscilloscopes and fourier analysis, one must make the step ahead. Into the unknown, where only your ears will tell.

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 4, 2015 at 16:00:51
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
"Of course I'm describing a diode effect. Why not imagine the wire as PN junctions connected in series. Impuritiy like copper oxide II is considered a P semiconductor."

If this really were occurring to any significant extent then it would presumably easily be verifiable by means of measurements. Much more reliable than putting the signal through a distorting amplifier, followed by a probably even more distorting loudspeaker, and then through a pair of ears with the associated psychological factors associated with the brain.

And if one did believe that the wire had a directionality caused by some sort of diode effects, then surely one would then want to use two parallel (well actually, anti-parallel) runs of wire, to balance up the two directions?

Personally, I don't think any of this is remotely plausible, but if one did believe it, then anti-parallel wires would be the way to go, I suppose! (OMG, doesn't that even go beyond someone else's "parallel runs of wiring" that we sometimes have to endure on these forums?!!!?)

Chris

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 4, 2015 at 20:47:40
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
And it isn't measurable yet. At least not with the tools most of us measure. I'm still thinking about how to do it.

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 5, 2015 at 03:22:49
cpotl
Audiophile

Posts: 1002
Location: Texas
Joined: December 6, 2009
"And it isn't measurable yet. At least not with the tools most of us measure. I'm still thinking about how to do it."

Well, as I've argued, I think it is overwhelmingly more likely that there is no effect there to be measured, and that the difference in sound between the two wire directions is imagined.

However, let us suppose for a moment that you were right, and that there were indeed some significant asymmetry in the wire. Is your idea then that with the wire oriented one way, there is a positive advantage, in comparison to an "ideal" symmetrical wire? Or is your idea instead that an asymmetrical wire is an unfortunate evil, but that with one particular orientation it does less harm to the audio signal than when it has the opposite orientation?

If the latter, then wouldn't that suggest you ought to try the experiment of putting two runs of wire together, with a "positively oriented" wire in parallel with a "negatively oriented" wire? Then, you would eliminate the asymmetry that you believe to be present. Of course you could also achieve a symmetrical arrangement by connecting two equal lengths of wire in series, one oriented oppositely to the other.

So there are two further configurations that you could try out with your listening tests!

Unfortunately, I think the dream that you will uncover deep truths that transcend known physics and electrical engineering by playing around with a home stereo system is just that; a dream. Conceivably you might learn something about human psychology and the way the brain processes its sensory inputs.

Chris

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 5, 2015 at 09:48:41
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
Chris,

I suggest the second thought. Each wire has its inevitable direction.

Your experiment of putting two wires with inverted directions in parallel sounds interesting and I will try it. What keeps me from applying it into practice is the double cost.

I will share my results when possible.

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 5, 2015 at 09:59:50
gusser
Audiophile

Posts: 3649
Location: So. California
Joined: September 6, 2006
How do you handle interconnect cables or speaker wire where both conductors are optimized in the same direction? Because that's no good in your world. The return conductor must be opposite to the signal conductor as the current is flowing in the opposite direction.

Have you taken that problem into account?

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 5, 2015 at 10:48:54
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
If I cannot reverse a commercial cable, I leave it alone and consider it as a irreversible limitation. Interconnects have an optimal direction, even with the shield disconnected. I'm an owner of Furutech 13S and I found out the manufacturers didn't go wrong with the arrow pointing direction.

I've also split Audioquest rocket 33 speaker cable in the past. By reversing directions, to my disappointment I found out it only got worse and the original direction was best. Audioquest also support wire directivity theory.

One of the reasons I started building my own cables is to be sure they won't have wrong with directions.

I have a pair of unshielded handmade RCA cables that have a very different tonality when plugged in reverse. This can be an advantage for different systems.

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 5, 2015 at 12:06:17
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
"One of the reasons I started building my own cables is to be sure they won't have wrong with directions."

It's interesting to me that you are concerned about the direction of wire but you use triode wired pentodes that are clearly not as linear as true triodes.

In my mind we should take care of everything that is clearly understood before we move on to the other things.

Just saying.....

Tre'




Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 5, 2015 at 12:44:05
aknaydenov
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Joined: September 13, 2015
Judging from my personal experience, cable distortion is audibly different from tube distortion and one doesn't entirely mask or compensate the other.

Despite this, on paper 6P45S wired in triode is very, very linear and rivals many triode. Please "google" its curves and check it out.

 

RE: Ultimately..., posted on October 5, 2015 at 13:41:51
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002

Have you got a set of curves better than this? This is all I could find.

"Despite this, on paper 6P45S wired in triode is very, very linear and rivals many triode. Please "google" its curves and check it out."

The spacing gets wider to the left and narrower to the right.

The plate voltage changes 200 volts in one direction but it only changes 160 volts in the other direction for the same grid change. That will cause a lot of harmonic distortion.

That is not "very, very linear". It's not even close to what I would call linear.

A 45 is very, very linear. A 2a3 is very, very linear. Hell, even a 300b is very, very linear compared to what you have.

Linear is when the plate voltage changes the same amount, left vs. right following the load line, as the grid voltage is changed from the idle point.

Sorry, maybe you have a better looking set of curves.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

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