Dead vs Steely Dan

RE: Dead vs Steely Dan, posted on September 27, 2020 at 08:49:44
johntoste Audiophile Posts: 459 Location: New England Joined: March 20, 2004	Simply stated: Grateful Dead are a rock/Americana band that is heavily into improvisation. They are not "purely" any one thing. Steely Dan are a rock band that freely uses the jazz harmonic palette. I'm a fan of both.

RE: Dead vs Steely Dan, posted on September 27, 2020 at 17:06:25

LtMandella

I don't really think of Steely Dan as a rock band.

Singer/songwriters yes, but those two guys used session musicians for just about all the instrument playing- drums. lead guitar, percussions,keyboard, etc. and often backing vocals.

And the session musicians often contributed to the compositions - guitar solos and riffs, drum riffs, etc.

Pretty much just the vocals and basic melodies came from the two, although Becker sometimes contributed some guitar work also.

RE: Dead vs Steely Dan, posted on September 27, 2020 at 22:08:23

johntoste
Audiophile

Posts: 459
Location: New England
Joined: March 20, 2004

I see them differently. They were an actual band (with some attrition) til about Aja, when the use of studio musicians predominates. They needed the versatility and ability of the studio guys in order to realize the sophistication of their writing.

Even then, Becker & Fagen wrote the charts. There's a famous story of Steve Gadd playing drums on the title song and nailing the pre-written chart in one take.

There were rhythm arrangement contributions along the way from people like Larry Carlton, but the bulk of the composition, arrangement and all lyrics were always by B&F.

RE: Dead vs Steely Dan, posted on September 27, 2020 at 22:37:38

rivervalley817

Becker is the sneaky tasty player back in the mix

check out Time Out Of Mind

besides Knopfler, what recent player slurs on a fretboard clean like that?

that ain't no frappin' and railin' as the old boys say

it isn't basic either ... Mel Torm� even said their songwriting was outstanding

if it's good enough for the Velvet Frog ...

on the other hand he liked Hootie & The Blowfish too so ...

regards,

NO comparison AFAIC....., posted on September 28, 2020 at 14:36:08
TWB Audiophile Posts: 7408 Location: Long Beach, California Joined: January 5, 2001	I have EVERY Steely Dan CD and not ONE Dead CD....

Dead play dippy "country.", posted on September 29, 2020 at 09:28:24
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10581 Joined: April 12, 2002	Never understood their popularity. Wasted money on one LP. Steely Dan albums and Nightfly are sophisticated adult rock. No comparison!

RE: Dead play dippy "country.", posted on September 29, 2020 at 10:02:06
mraudio Audiophile Posts: 457 Location: Northern Colorado Joined: November 4, 2006	Steely Dan is my FAVORITE band of all time, so I'm a little biased. Never really got into The Dead. I agree...no comparison.

RE: Dead play dippy "country.", posted on September 29, 2020 at 10:02:21
rivervalley817	I had one Dead album ... DEAD/LIVE [1969] and listened to one side ... Dark Star it is not country, dippy or otherwise the rest of their catalogue consists of campfire songs with huge production popular with the 'sing-along' crowd ... that is their popularity IMO regards,

I'm thinking of Casey Jones,, posted on September 29, 2020 at 10:46:59
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10581 Joined: April 12, 2002	and all the Dead I've heard was like that. Sing along crowd? Their audience was Stoners. I think the Dead needed simple music to play and remember because of their extreme drug use. And this is from a pot smoker... When I read the Electric Kool Aid Acid Test, I was expecting somehow Electric Stochausen Rock and free improv. Not!

RE: I'm thinking of Casey Jones,, posted on September 29, 2020 at 11:02:48
rivervalley817	most emphatically, they are the sing along crowd you're hearing 'cowboy chords' around the campfire tripe with the occasional bluegrass excursion. I've put up with Deadheads forever almost as bad as Buffet's 'Parrotheads' they both have a truly dedicated following that are truly 'pushy' about it just my opinion but it's a strongly held one, not that you asked regards,

RE: Dead vs Steely Dan, posted on September 29, 2020 at 11:08:10
Goober58 Audiophile Posts: 5576 Joined: November 15, 2016	I have albums by each.

RE: I'm thinking of Casey Jones,, posted on September 29, 2020 at 11:10:51
Goober58 Audiophile Posts: 5576 Joined: November 15, 2016	Sure the self-righteousness is kind of off-putting, but if we are going to be critics there's a glitzy pretentiousness about Steely Dan that rubs me the wrong way.

RE: I'm thinking of Casey Jones,, posted on September 29, 2020 at 11:21:55
rivervalley817	probably because they're dildos

dildos?, posted on September 29, 2020 at 13:39:15
Goober58 Audiophile Posts: 5576 Joined: November 15, 2016	I must have missed something.

RE: dildos?, posted on September 29, 2020 at 13:52:36
rivervalley817	it's from the Edgar Burroughs novel "Naked Lunch" which made mention of a "steely dan" ... a steam-powered 'adult toy' that's where the band name came from with regards,

laugh! nt, posted on September 29, 2020 at 15:04:47
Goober58 Audiophile Posts: 5576 Joined: November 15, 2016

RE: Dead vs Steely Dan, posted on September 29, 2020 at 15:28:31

6bq5
Audiophile

Posts: 4384
Location: SF Bay
Joined: August 16, 2001

I have most recordings from both groups/bands.

They each make very different, but very unique music.

I love the obvious jazz influences present in Steely Dan - there is also a poetry in the subtle (though not always so) lyrics of the songs from Becker and Fagen (together and apart)

The Greatful Dead - I would quote an often repeated, though never attributed quote: "They are not the best at what they do, they are the only ones who do it-"

You either like (Love) the Dead or you don't -
If you did not get to see them live (and I mean at least before Jerry died, though before Brent died was better still) then the tapes and CD are all we have to share with you-

For me the musical genius of the dead is not as dense as Steely Dan, but that is not to say it is not there.

My favorites tend to be from early in their career - both the albums and the shows. Some of the albums (and songs from live sets) do channel some very interesting and jazz inspired music - but they have a very identifiable sound, and I also respect those who do not want to listen to them -

So,
Pick your poison, and play the music you love-

and roll those laughing bones.....
Happy Listening

I like apples more than oranges. Both are tasty but, posted on October 1, 2020 at 18:11:21
jefe Audiophile Posts: 1869 Location: rocky montains Joined: December 29, 2000	different. I prefer the Dead, although more so the Pigpen era that is more blues influenced.

Back in my punk rock days . . ., posted on October 1, 2020 at 23:22:13

belyin
Audiophile

Posts: 1285
Location: New Orleans
Joined: November 1, 2003

In college late 70's early 80's, I hated them both, but for different reasons. The Dead were huge with a large part of my fellow students (the Long Island Cocaine Cowboys I dismissively called them--I could be a snooty punk) but I thought the were boring and noodlely. "But you have to hear them while tripping," I was told. But when I took acid I preferred the Velvet Underground and the Cramps! Steely Dan I found too arch and affected; and their studio perfectionism clashed with the raw and direct aesthetic I admired.

Forty years later and as a much better listener, I find I like the Dead even less; their music holds no rhythmic, harmonic, or emotional interest for me. I consider their rhythm section inept (I greatly appreciate space in music, but without tension it is just the void,) Garcia a boring noodler, and the vocals both unlistenable and vapid. Worse, their sloppy and disengaged aesthetic has colonized "funk" music via the their Jam Band offspring (who at times have seemed determined to colonize the whole New Orleans music scene!) I am mystified that two of my biggest jazz heroes--Ornette Coleman and David Murray--played with them. Obviously they have bigger ears than I do, and they must have heard something there that I can't make.

Today I have greater appreciation for Steely Dan--for their craft and their cynical wit--but I wouldn't say I am a fan. Oddly enough, what turned me around a little bit on them was hearing Rickie Lee Jones' cover of "Showbiz Kids" with Richard Davis on bass--just a beautiful production of an interesting song.

Good Question, posted on November 1, 2020 at 19:20:50

Ross
Audiophile

Posts: 1814
Joined: January 24, 2000

When I was a teen, these bands appealed to two different groups

Deadheads were mostly Trustafarians....kids with too much money to "blow" while acting like poseur and wannabe hippies. I knew more than a few who blew through inheritances and trust funds following the Dead around for several years.

Heavy Metal crowd (a/k/a "Burnouts") mostly wore black t-shirts, black jeans, black sneakers even during the summer months. They were the blue collar opposites of the Dead-Trustfund kids.

SD fans were mostly the artsy crowd who's dry humor went completely over the heads of the jocks and cheerleaders.

I straddled some invisible line between the SD crowd and the punk/new wavers. Common ground was hatred of Disco, disdain for the Deadheads and Burnouts.

I remain a fan of SD and punk / new wave.

Both are fantastic and the best of the best.. IMHO, posted on November 2, 2020 at 07:23:45

lokie
Audiophile

Posts: 1988
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003

Wow... a lot of wrong stereotyping here. I'll throw out some personnel opinion that I think to be truths.

Mostly, the Grateful Dead "thing" isn't about being stoned or lifestyle, it's about the music and I'll add that Jerry Garcia's musical "paintings" are very lovable.

They have the most prolific catalog that is second to none. You can put Steely Dan, The Stones and name your band and triple it and you will have the beginning of what you can explore in the GD catalog. If you add Garcia's output to the equation(Bluegrass, Western, Dylan, Jazz, Motown genre's)you (me) have a lifetime of discovery. Not all of it is great or even good and you can find plenty to criticize. Even some of my favorite songs aren't entirely good. Sometimes you have to "suffer" through some songs to get to when the band starts clicking or a Garcia solo that gives you goose bumps. You know when you are a true fan when you start loving the "bad" stuff.

Grateful Dead fans for the most part don't care if you like the Grateful Dead or not. So, I'm not going to try to make any converts but I will say this: Jazz greats like Ornette Coleman and Branford Marsalis don't play with wanna be's. They play with artists of the highest order and they both loved to play with the Grateful Dead.

As I get older, I don't listen to (as much anyway) the Stones or Zeppelin or Credence or most other classic rock bands I've loved over the years. But I still listen to the Dead and maybe even more. Very hard to describe but a lot of the music has a mellow bouncy quality, even when it's "rocking". See... Cornell 5/8/77 as the ultimate example of this.

My Magnum Opus is not Grateful Dead but a Jerry Garcia Band set. I listen to it at least once a month and have for years... it's the gift that keeps on giving: After Midnight- Keens College 2/28/80 Disc TWO. It warms you up with a sweet Marvin Gaye cover and then on to the groovy Tulsa sound of JJ Cale and then builds into a haunting and epic Beetles cover and finishes back to earth with Cale. It's moody, sophisticated, surprising and builds into an epic crescendo. It is not light listening. The rhythm section is simultaneously jazz quartet nimble and powerful. Garcia's playing is at it's very finest in coherence and improvisation. If I had a time machine and one ride to take, it would be to the front row of this set.

Steely Dan- Wow... what a fantastic band: Sophisticated and cool, the guitar riffs and horn sections, the weaving of jazz and rock and that's just the sound. The lyrics are equally cool and fun. New England Prep school meets Soho and Southern Cal Bohemia. There's nothing like it. Love everything about them with one big exception, there's just not enough of it. I cant keep listening to the exact same studio version of Pretzel Logic over and over again. I wish they had played live more with improvised versions of their catalog. (BTW... Grateful Dead has 3500 live shows floating out there).

RE: Both are fantastic and the best of the best.. IMHO, posted on November 2, 2020 at 10:54:17

rivervalley817

well, you are the god of mischief aren't you?

to me the most important part of music is whether or not it resonates with me and is evocative ... obviously it's the same for you, and you know what you like and who plays it ... I used to have a friend that didn't care about music, it was just noise that he either liked or not, but never sought it out or invested in gear to play it back with ... obviously not a musician ... this was so alien to me that I wasn't even sure I liked the guy! yet he became a friend like a brother

so enjoy your music and take any criticism I proffered in stride as a matter of taste ... that goes for anyone else too of course

I really appreciate and enjoyed your reply, you effectively communicated your love for Garcia & Co. music to the point that you damn near got me to give the Dead another go, but I quickly snapped out of it!

best regards,

RE: Both are fantastic and the best of the best.. IMHO, posted on November 2, 2020 at 14:53:46
lokie Audiophile Posts: 1988 Location: Georgia, USA Joined: January 28, 2003	I am trying to figure out Sun Ra. Like the GD, he is very prolific with all kinds of different genres and soundscapes. I'll have to say that I'm loosing the battle but am being persistent due to the enthusiasm and passion of the fans.

RE: Both are fantastic and the best of the best.. IMHO, posted on November 2, 2020 at 15:23:57

rivervalley817

Sun Ra is an acquired taste ... he scored very 'theatrical' music and so went his live shows ... saw him once by accident and found the music interesting in context ... to hear his charts without the live show is indeed a challenging listen ... always thought he was to jazz what George Clinton is to funk ... though not necessary, it helps to see Funkadelics / Parliament to 'get' them ... though the freight train rhythm section comes through anyway

good luck with your exploration, maybe YouTube the Arkestra for some context if you haven't and things might click ...

regards,

RE: Both are fantastic and the best of the best.. IMHO, posted on November 3, 2020 at 06:27:41

lokie
Audiophile

Posts: 1988
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003

Interesting thoughts. Actually seeing artists really helps complete the "picture".

Like I mentioned about Steely Dan and other Rock groups, they lack content for the long run. Sun Ra, Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, and other jazz greats have such prolific catalogs which includes both studio and live. Jazz goes back 100 plus years so there is just more time as well.

So, if you can catch the joy of one of these artists, you will have a lot of fun hours of listening. For the longest time I just couldn't get Miles and took Louis and Ella for granted. But somewhere along the line all those artists "hit" me like a train. Sometimes it's a single note and like Miles, I just finally found a few albums that I could appreciate and my love grew from there. It's almost like learning a new language. It takes time and effort and then out of the blue, a whole new world opens up for you.

RE: Both are fantastic and the best of the best.. IMHO, posted on November 3, 2020 at 10:48:51

rivervalley817

'time and effort and then out of the blue'

aha! Miles' Kinda Blue set the hook for me ... again, my jazzbo pals turned me onto it by playing the charts whilst I jammed on it ... then I heard the record and ... "so that's what I'm trying to play" ... the next time they trotted it out I laid back [I was way too 'busy' before] and just came in on where the brass chorus should be with a staccato chord voicing ... we didn't have horns in the room at that point ... that worked and earned me some high fives and a proud little moment

alrighty then, I'm off to get some honey-do honey-done in a few so ...

have a great or better day!

Music Lane

Dead vs Steely Dan

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