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This is my brain on HIP

75.39.16.143

Posted on January 10, 2017 at 07:17:04
Jay Buridan
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Don't let this happen to you !!!

 

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what is the issue with HIP, posted on January 10, 2017 at 07:35:28
banpuku
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I have only seen a few headlines on HIP and know it is a current topic of heated debate. So, please educate me on why some people dislike HIP. Is it the instruments or the lack of vibrato or something else?

 

No matter what the hobby or practice, there are always extremists, and unfortunately the most extreme, or, posted on January 10, 2017 at 07:58:45
jdaniel@jps.net
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tragic-comic examples of HIP become the exemplar. I remember when the poor natural brass players missed more notes than they hit. Strings can be screechy and thin in the worst cases, though insensitive recordings didn't help, etc.

There's plenty of diversity.

 

RE: No matter what the hobby or practice, there are always extremists, and unfortunately the most extreme, or, posted on January 10, 2017 at 08:27:50
Ivan303
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A terrifying thing to come home and discover in your living room!






 

RE: what is the issue with HIP, posted on January 10, 2017 at 08:49:04
johngladneyproffitt
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I can give one good example of HIP gone wrong and off the deep end. Roger Norrington's Bruckner. Gawdawful, scratchy strings, sewing-machine rhythms, emmaciated sonority, total lack of spirituality. Just dreadful crap, all in deference to the "Historically Informed Performance" ideology. Bah, humbug.
John Proffitt

 

Ha ha. My brain on non-HIP enclosed. : ), posted on January 10, 2017 at 08:52:50
jdaniel@jps.net
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.

 

Remember Vaughan Williams on Gut Strings? Blasphemy!, posted on January 10, 2017 at 08:56:30
jdaniel@jps.net
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.

 

RE: what is the issue with HIP, posted on January 10, 2017 at 09:19:34
rbolaw
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IMO, there is nothing wrong with the basic principle of considering the performance practices that were commonly observed in the era a piece of music was composed. Imagine someone centuries in the future trying to play a piece by Tommy Dorsey or Miles Davis without the instruments they used or any clue as to performance practices, or any recordings (just as we have no recordings of Couperin, Bach or Mozart played by the musicians of their own time). They would have to read contemporaneous books or magazine articles and do a lot of research and sleuthing in general to figure it out. in other words, become historically informed.

Where the HIP movement sometimes veers off track, imo and the opinion of others who have written on this topic, is when performance "rules" become too codified and rigid and there becomes a right and wrong way to deal with every last detail.

 

RE: what is the issue with HIP, posted on January 10, 2017 at 09:26:47
banpuku
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This is getting interesting. Let me offer a couple of thoughts:

1. I agree with idea that playing a piece of music with historical information sounds reasonable. But, and this will expose my ignorance, do we really have enough historical information to inform us on how the scores were intended to be played? Do we know for certain that vibrato was not used 300 years ago? Or is this supposition deducted by bits and pieces of information that are arguably wrong?

2. There is also nothing wrong with playing a piece that might slightly deviate from the historical fashion it was intended. This gives the performers and conductors a bit of artistic license which can add diversity to the music. Imagine if artistic license was forbidden, we would only need 1 sample of each score. No need to hear Beethoven from multiple conductors or symphonies. Just one, if we did not allow artistic license.

3. As I read some of the comments, there appears to be an issue with the sonic quality of the HIP performances. Is this due to recording engineering issues or the way the instruments are played or due to the historical instruments themselves?

 

Damn people for having fun. nt, posted on January 10, 2017 at 09:56:19
Travis
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.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok

 

???, posted on January 10, 2017 at 10:18:58
Travis
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If it wasn't for the HIP movement, most of the baroque music we hear today would never have gotten played and/or recorded.

There is stylistically a wide divergence of playing in the HIP movement. Any casual investigation will find many different ways of playing the Brandenburgs or The Four Seasons.

I really don't get the anti-HIP tirades on this forum. There are many beautiful and virtuosic recorded performances out there.

?


"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok

 

RE: Remember Vaughan Williams on Gut Strings? Blasphemy!, posted on January 10, 2017 at 11:08:52
johngladneyproffitt
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Yes, pretty awful.
John Proffitt

 

RE: Ha ha. My brain on non-HIP enclosed. : ), posted on January 10, 2017 at 11:10:34
johngladneyproffitt
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....shades of The Wrath of Khan! Ugh.
John Proffitt

 

Agreed. To paraphrase Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart , posted on January 10, 2017 at 11:31:16
Jay Buridan
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in Jacobellis v. Ohio (1964), I know good music when I hear it. For example, I like these Gardiner performances, but for Brahms Symphonies I prefer Bruno Walter, Giulini, Blomstedt, and many others. I like Dorati's Haydn Symphonies and Gardiner's Haydn Masses. I dislike the Emerson and the Lindsay quartets generally, though I haven't heard their complete corpse (sic), induction tells me to avoid it like death.

Mostly, I just meant to be humorous...and to start a discussion :)
























 

I'll try to respond to your points 1 and 2., posted on January 10, 2017 at 11:39:18
rbolaw
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Your point 2 is similar to the main point I was trying to make. IMO the best players of 17th and 18th century music well understand that knowledge of historic performance practices should be a helpful tool to enhance artistic license, not restrict it. In the end, the idea is to produce a convincing musical performance, not rigidly follow a series of rules down to the most minute detail.

As for your point 1, while historical knowledge of anything is seldom perfect, there are sources that provide information on how music was played in the 18th and even the 17th centuries.

I'm not sure how to respond to your point 3. There have been many "audiophile" releases of early music where authentic early instruments or replicas are used and early performance practices are followed in at least some regards. The instruments often produce less volume than more modern ones, and ensembles are often smaller.

 

Oh dear! Late to the discussion! - I've been busy listening to my. . . , posted on January 10, 2017 at 11:55:28
Chris from Lafayette
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. . . Hamilton Harty Suite from Handel's "Water Music"!



It's simply divine! What was the question again?

 

RE: Agreed. To paraphrase Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart , posted on January 10, 2017 at 12:01:09
Travis
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Thanks for the prick (sic).

Mostly on this forum, I read anti-HIP rhetoric and sometimes I weary of it.

Your OP brought out many of the usual suspects.

I haven't really gotten on the bandwagon, pardon the expression, of HIPsters playing post 1827 works but I sure like the lightness and transparency that is a feature of the classical and baroque playing.


"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok

 

"...prick (sic)" LOL! (nt), posted on January 10, 2017 at 12:06:21
Jay Buridan
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:)

 

To paraphrase Harry Potter (sic), posted on January 10, 2017 at 12:15:35
Jay Buridan
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"What if that wand never belonged to Norrington? What if its allegiance was always to someone else?"

[Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Part 2]

 

RE: Oh dear! Late to the discussion! - I've been busy listening to my. . . , posted on January 10, 2017 at 12:15:47
Travis
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My guilty pleasures are orchestral and piano transcriptions of Bach's mostly organ pieces.

Or even this:







"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok

 

RE: Oh dear! Late to the discussion! - I've been busy listening to my. . . , posted on January 10, 2017 at 12:18:21
banpuku
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Chris,

Please do me a favor and read my 2nd post in this string. I would like to know your thoughts on my 3 questions/points.

Thanks,
Pat

 

I'm a believer in that Zenph Gould Goldberg Variations release too!, posted on January 10, 2017 at 12:29:07
Chris from Lafayette
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Get him out of that dry acoustic of the original recording and onto a decent sounding piano too! The Zenph "re-performance" recording is a big improvement IMHO! ;-)

(Although, having said that, I sure wish Zenph would have expended more of their efforts on recordings from back in the 78 rpm era - the further back, the better - which were far more in need of the Zenph treatment. And actually, the '55 Gould Goldbergs weren't THAT bad in terms of SQ. I heard that Zenph ran out of money, but I hope that they'll be able to continue their efforts at some time in the near future, with further commercial releases.)

 

No worries, nothing to see here. : ) nt, posted on January 10, 2017 at 12:29:09
jdaniel@jps.net
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N

 

Well, OK - I'll try to post a reply tonight, posted on January 10, 2017 at 12:32:40
Chris from Lafayette
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But you DO know that that will likely provoke one of our periodic free-for-alls wherein everybody gets bent out of shape! ;-)

 

RE: Well, OK - I'll try to post a reply tonight, posted on January 10, 2017 at 13:09:05
banpuku
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Most excellent. Looking forward to the chair throwing and bottle breaking. And by all means, don't hold back. Come with full ammo.

 

RE: Aaah, the Estrogen Consort! (nt), posted on January 10, 2017 at 13:15:30
kitch29
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RE: what is the issue with HIP, posted on January 10, 2017 at 13:20:22
steve.ott@kctcs.edu
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Didn't he do an equally bad Mahler 9th?

 

All of the above, posted on January 10, 2017 at 14:44:39
Analog Scott
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Not only is the sound of period instruments inferior to modern instruments, they are in most cases much much more difficult to play and so they inhibit the performances.

 

lol. More like HIP-replacement (nt), posted on January 10, 2017 at 14:58:06
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nt

 

LOL! Good one, Your Lordship, posted on January 10, 2017 at 15:11:09
Jay Buridan
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BTW, are you related to Baron Rump?

 

RE: Oh dear! Late to the discussion! - I've been busy listening to my. . . , posted on January 10, 2017 at 15:39:19
ahendler
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Another of the wonderful Mercury recordings
Alan

 

Maybe so, but "inferior" implies different, posted on January 10, 2017 at 16:43:45
rbolaw
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However welcome the improvements to 17th and 18th and early 19th instruments may have been, they did bring about a different sound, sometimes vastly different. And many of the changes were spurred by the need for louder instruments capable of enough volume to fill larger venues, rather than just better intonation, flexibility or ease of playing, though all those come into play too as you correctly point out.

I don't think any intelligent, open-minded musician or listener would reject modern instruments as a bad thing. But I also think that a well-done recreation of the original sound can be worthwhile and enjoyable to hear. Of course, the goal must always be musical worth first and historical authenticity a distant second. And I don't mean to imply more modern instruments or approaches must be replaced by something more "authentic". There's plenty of room for all sorts of approaches.

 

Yup - I was only half kidding - It IS really good! [nt], posted on January 10, 2017 at 19:39:21
Chris from Lafayette
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Have you hear Faust's Bach Sonatas and Partitas? Or Podger's Bach Violin Concertos on Channel? tnt, posted on January 10, 2017 at 20:56:35
jdaniel@jps.net
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.

 

"But I also think that a well-done recreation of the original sound can be worthwhile and enjoyable to hear", posted on January 10, 2017 at 22:15:58
Analog Scott
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I totally agree with this sentiment. There are some truly exceptional performances on period instruments and they do offer a wonderfully different perspective and more of a sense of time travel. I would never exclude either approach. But, ultimately I prefer modern instruments plain by great musicians.

 

Couldn't do it tonight - will try for tomorrow [nt], posted on January 11, 2017 at 00:58:54
Chris from Lafayette
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RE: This is my brain on HIP , posted on January 11, 2017 at 03:22:20
andy evans
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Totally agree with HIP.

Charlie Parker tunes should only be played on plastic saxophones.

Jimmy Hendrix and Paul McCartney tunes should only be played on left handed instruments.

1960s rock classics should only be played on 1960s Strats.

Obvious really.....

 

RE: Agreed. To paraphrase Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart , posted on January 11, 2017 at 04:03:15
pbarach
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I live around the corner from the movie theater that was the source of Jacobellis v. Ohio when they showed the movie "The Lovers" and got busted for obscenity. The theater is now an evangelical church. How's that for irony?

 

No, no, posted on January 11, 2017 at 07:12:39
jec01
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To be historically accurate, Hendrix and McCartney tunes should be played left-handed on re-strung right-handed instruments, as both of those masters did.

But seriously: you can't sound like the 1963 Beatles unless you use crappy Vox amps. You can't sound like Bach's 1717 ensembles unless you use valveless brass. Other choices are as valid as the results; i.e. might be great or might be terrible. We've all heard plenty of both.

Happy listening,

Jim

"The passage of my life is measured out in shirts."
- Brian Eno

 

Sometimes the inferiority of the instrument is part of the point, posted on January 11, 2017 at 07:24:14
jec01
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I once heard a very interesting recording of Beethoven's Appassionata sonata played on forte-piano. The instrument's inability to handle the dynamics of the piece made it sound like it was about to explode, which was part of the emotional experience Beethoven was (arguably) trying to convey.

More generally, I admit to knowing very little about how to play a violin, but the way people play period strings seems to lead consistently to a lighter, defter approach to the music.


Happy listening,

Jim

"The passage of my life is measured out in shirts."
- Brian Eno

 

Good point, interesting example, posted on January 11, 2017 at 07:39:47
rbolaw
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As I'm sure you can appreciate given your example, the fortepiano is a good illustration of why the "historical" approach is not without controversy. In the opinion of many, the modern piano is far better suited to the modern large concert hall, and at least in my opinion, it is also better suited to the recording studio. But it sure is interesting to hear Beethoven piano sonatas played on a fortepiano with leather hammers, isn't it? And there are some fine fortepiano players around today.
Beethoven himself was supposedly frustrated with the lack of power of the fortepiano and early pianos of his day, and I suspect would have been very happy with the modern piano had he lived to play them.

 

I have a Norrington/Shubert Symphony CD, sounds good to me., posted on January 11, 2017 at 09:54:53
oldmkvi
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In Bach Choral Works, I've often heard Baroque Violins,
they cut through the texture, and there are only a few, compared to Symphonic Works.
Tuning is usually lower too, to match the Baroque Organs.
It's no problem for me!

 

RE: Sometimes the inferiority of the instrument is part of the point, posted on January 11, 2017 at 11:33:38
banpuku
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I just listened to this HIP performance on youtube.

Beethoven Appassionata Sonata - Shuann Chai - Fortepiano - Live Concert - HD

It certainly is different from a piano performance using a modern piano. I don't find it offensive and it is actually a bit intriguing. I guess if I donned a white wig and some ruffled shirt I could really get into the HIP scene :-)

It's might be considered a bit enlightening.

Pat

 

Do you wear a tie-dyed shirt to listen to Hendrix? :) nt., posted on January 11, 2017 at 12:15:48
jec01
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nt.

Happy listening,

Jim

"The passage of my life is measured out in shirts."
- Brian Eno

 

RE: Do you wear a tie-dyed shirt to listen to Hendrix? :) nt., posted on January 11, 2017 at 12:18:42
banpuku
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So right you are, my friend.

And, I wear leopard skin underwear while listening to Rod Stewart.

 

LOL! nt, posted on January 11, 2017 at 12:21:59
jec01
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nt

Happy listening,

Jim

"The passage of my life is measured out in shirts."
- Brian Eno

 

So that location went from bad to worse :(, posted on January 11, 2017 at 12:55:01
Jay Buridan
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I hate to see an honest porn theatre go religious. Gotta' go now to read Marcus Aurelius and Schopenhauer for philosophical consolation...

 

"I don't find it offensive", posted on January 11, 2017 at 14:31:01
Analog Scott
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Well...if I am going to listen to a Beethoven sonata I am hoping for better than "I don't find it offensive." I find the forte piano to be a prime example of HIP leading to inferior music. It is simply an inferior instrument to a modern paino and never sounds as good. Heck Beethoven sonatas played on a kazoo, if played well enough, might be "interesting" but it will never rise above the level of novelty IMO.

 

RE: So that location went from bad to worse :(, posted on January 11, 2017 at 14:41:33
pbarach
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Actually the film in Jacobellis v. Ohio was The Lovers, directed by Louis Malle. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052556/?ref_=nm_flmg_dr_29

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/33094/lovers-criterion-collection-the/

The theater was then called the Heights Art Theater. They showed basically "art house movies," such as films by Malle and other European directors that the mainstream theaters never showed.

Here's the whole story of the landmark court case and pictures of the theater from 1941 (when it was a regular movie house showing standard Hollywood fare) and 2012, in its last incarnation as a movie theater:

https://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/436#.WHa0F_krLeM

 

HIP: It's a bad scene! (aka: I've just been reading Hogwood's biography of Handel), posted on January 11, 2017 at 18:33:01
Chris from Lafayette
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God knows I've had Hogwood's Handel biography on my bookshelf long enough (decades actually)! I'm about a third of the way through, and I'm enjoying it. I suppose if enough time goes by, I might even take up JEGie's biography of Bach too at some point. I take nothing away from these two pillars of HIP orthodoxy in terms of their knowledge and their writing. In terms of their actual performances though, it's "Get me outta here!". But why? What do I have against it?

My own personal HIP history:

In the early days of HIP (maybe up to the early-60's, before the acronym was invented), I actually DIDN'T have too much against the movement. Its adherents tended to focus on correct execution of the ornaments, correct number of performing forces, details such as horn parts which were notated an octave lower than the expected sound (e.g., in Haydn's Symphony No. 48), etc. Nothing to get too worried about really, and in fact, I supported those aspects of performance which they emphasized at that time. However, in the 60's, some wacko recordings were released under the authenticist rubric, not least the c. 1966 recording of Handel's Royal Fireworks Music on Vox by Richard Schulze and his Telemann Society band, which contained demo tracks of the goals they were after in the performance and which, they claimed, would have been the sounds that Handel himself had in mind at the time he wrote his music. They went back to valveless brass instruments, thicker reeds on the oboes and bassoons. . . and they even included an instrument made out of leather called a "Cavalry Serpent". It was certainly ear opening - but not in a good sense. The natural unmodified tuning of these valveless brass instruments resulted in terrible pitch clashes with the other instruments, and, even aside from these gross pitch problems, the whole performance seemed to be hanging by a thread, although, truth to tell, the winds didn't sound that bad. I had this album and I loved it, mainly for its potential as a "party record"! I didn't see how anyone could ever take this nonsense seriously.

But I was wrong!

Just a few years after this freak of music recording, both DG and Teldec were going whole hog (no pun intended) with their English Concert (Trevor Pinnock) and Concentus Musicus (Nickolaus Harnoncourt) ensembles in standard Baroque repertoire works. I'll never forget the first time I happened to tune in on the radio and heard this godawful performance of the Fifth Brandenburg Concerto (Pinnock's), with its minimal to no vibrato in the string playing, clumsy-sounding over-articulated phrasing (with slurs exaggeratedly clipped off at the ends), and gross, amateurish messa di voce effects which made a joke out of any chord that was halfway sustained. And people were taking this seriously, because these Historically Informed Performance pioneers had the backing of an entire academic industry which was misreading and misinterpreting the contemporaneous music treatises of the Baroque period. It's as if all these academicians got together at some conference somewhere and decided that, for instance, vibrato was verboten in performances of music of the Baroque!

It only got worse from there.

Somehow, these feet of clay ensembles found enough of an audience (and, worse, enough kudos from bored and cynical critics who still should have known better) to allow them to sweep into the classic period. . . then the early romantic period. . . then the late nineteenth century (Bruckner, Mahler, etc.). . . then the first half of the twentieth century (Vaughan Williams - geez!). It was like a disease. It got so bad that some HIP maladies began to infect performances even on modern instruments (e.g., Paavo Jarvi's otherwise fine set of Beethoven Symphonies, with its minimalist vibrato in the strings). There was even a report that some musicologist in the 80's was seriously suggesting that performances of Boulez's "Le Marteau sans maitre" return "to the instruments of 1955" in order to realize the composer's intentions. (Somehow, when Boulez himself recorded the work for DG, he didn't take the musicologist's directive into account!) And although this last point sounds humorous, it does point up a very serious problem with HIP academicians and performers: their arrogance in deciding how the composer would have wanted his music played. Sorry to disappoint them, but, on evidence of this anecdote, they DON'T speak for the composer at all, even though they claim to. I see there's been some discussion on this thread about using the "original instruments" of the Beatles and other pop groups, plastic saxes, etc - the absurdity of this notion is plainly obvious in that discussion, but it's every bit as absurd when it comes to classical music too, except perhaps as experiments which, if successful, might lead us to tweak our own performances of older music too.

Speaking personally, my own hostility to post-60's HIP performances resides in the following:

  • The paring down of string vibrato to little or nothing, making for a completely unsophisticated, amateurish type of sound
  • The use of keyboard instruments ("fortepianos" - note the special designation) which sound like toy pianos, or strung-together rubber bands. Listeners have been brainwashed into accepting this type of sound, partly because of academic intimidation. In a way, it's a kind of "Emperor's New Clothes" mentality.
  • The overphrasing and clipping off of phrase endings in a way that earlier generations would have called "mannered" but which are now par for the course in HIP performances. Sometimes, this type of playing is appealing to newbie and unsophisticated listeners who, because of the gross differences with traditional renditions of the music, can actually hear these differences themselves (unlike the more subtle expressive approach of traditional players to the music).
  • The arrogance which underlies HIP academics' and musicians' often unstated assumption that, unlike musicians who play modern instruments, only THEY know what the composer had in mind
  • Another form of arrogance by which HIP musicians and academics claim that THEY were the ones who reinvigorated music by returning to the (often fast) tempos which earlier composers notated - as if traditional conductors like Toscanini, Reiner, Dorati, Szell, et al., didn't know a thing about the composer's markings. (Hint: the first conductor to take the second movement of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony at Beethoven's own metronome mark was not some HIPster - it was Dorati!) On this point, the HIPsters are nothing short of deceitful.
I'm sure I'm forgetting some additional objections I have to HIP and HIPsters, but this is sufficient for now, and I've posted about a lot of this stuff before.

HIP - it's a bad scene!

 

I guess this newbie's gonna have to throw away some of his most beloved performances, posted on January 11, 2017 at 19:16:28
jdaniel@jps.net
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I liked Pinnock's Brandenburg's.

But Pinnock's "Ode to St Cecilia" with Felicity Lott? Out of my cold dead hands.

 

I used to have that Pinnock "Ode for St. Cecelia's Day" too, posted on January 11, 2017 at 19:34:06
Chris from Lafayette
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On a Barclay-Crocker open-reel tape. I do admit to liking certain things about it. Hard tympani sticks is one thing we can thank the HIP movement for! ;-)

 

Too much vibrato for you? : ) nt, posted on January 11, 2017 at 20:03:40
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Funny thing. . . , posted on January 12, 2017 at 01:06:22
Chris from Lafayette
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. . . I've been meaning for years to get a more traditional recording of the Ode. There's one on Naxos which I can presumably check out on Classics Online - at least I think it's a traditional performance. My wife generally likes Handel, but she thinks that "The Trumpet's Loud Clangor Excites us to Arms" (my favorite part of the Ode) is lame - especially when it gets to "the double double double beat. . . " section. ;-)

 

RE: HIP: It's a bad scene! (aka: I've just been reading Hogwood's biography of Handel), posted on January 12, 2017 at 06:54:28
banpuku
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Chris, Thank you for taking time to articulate your point and educating me. Much appreciated.

I rarely put any stock into a journalist or reviewers point of view. They can't hold water like a conductor or virtuoso.

I still go back to the original thought in my mind: "do we really KNOW what Bach or Beethoven intended?" The answer is "probably not".

We do know what Shostakovich intended for his quartets, as evidenced by the Beethoven String Quartet upon whom he relied to debut his quartets. In this case, one could easily defer to the Beethoven Quartet performances as reference. From the Shosty quartet web site: "Shostakovich himself enjoyed the companionship of the Beethoven Quartet, the foremost ensemble in the Soviet Union, for whom he wrote all but his first quartet. In telling the story of his life, his quartets tell also of his relationship with these players, with their instruments, and with their repertory of the great classics."

In contrast, we have no such authority from Bach or anybody else prior to the 1900s.

 

Well, I wish I could still digest pizza wrapped in bacon, but I just can't. nt., posted on January 12, 2017 at 08:08:50
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Moreover, some (not all) composers were pretty relaxed as far as. . ., posted on January 12, 2017 at 10:28:48
Chris from Lafayette
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. . . interpretive differences in their own music were concerned. I've posted some stories about composers such as Martinu and Dvorak which indicate that they didn't have a single, fixed idea as to how their own music should go. To recap one of them: Dvorak actually conceived a tempo for the slow movement of the New World Symphony which was noticeably faster than the one taken by the first conductor in the rehearsals for the premiere of the work. When Dvorak's son-in-law, Josef Suk (the composer, not the violinist!) asked him if he was going to correct the conductor, Dvorak said no, because, on reflection, he thought that the conductor's slower tempo worked well too.

 

Best to use your own ears. If there's anything worse than HIP Inc., it's the fake news surrounding it. Nt, posted on January 12, 2017 at 10:38:31
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That's true - but it's mostly from its proponents! [nt] ;-), posted on January 12, 2017 at 10:41:15
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But why the angst over what is simply an alternative fife-style? nt, posted on January 12, 2017 at 12:45:07
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Ever heard the American Classical Orchestra?, posted on January 12, 2017 at 12:46:02
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A friend is principal french horn in the orch. I've heard/seen them twice at the same venue (Ethical Culture Society in NYC) and they sounded great. Not only were the instrumental sounds not strident or wiry, they were rich. No pitch problems worth caring about either.

Not a good move to damn all bands that play orig. instruments IMO.

 

I reluctantly gave my opinion after being asked for it [nt] ;-), posted on January 12, 2017 at 18:30:56
Chris from Lafayette
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Obviously, I can't argue with you about that group, posted on January 12, 2017 at 18:51:27
Chris from Lafayette
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I haven't heard the American Classical Orchestra, so I can't complain about what I haven't heard. But there was indeed one HIP group which I didn't mind (kind of "the exception which proves the rule"): the Collegium Aureum, which I've posted about a few times. At least they didn't go along with the little-to-no vibrato directive received from on high in the academe! ;-)

 

I'm neither a Hipster nor anti. Just judge individual groups and/or recordings. nt, posted on January 12, 2017 at 19:09:42
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nt

 

As do we all (I would hope) - but after half a century, certain patterns emerge when. . . , posted on January 12, 2017 at 20:14:27
Chris from Lafayette
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. . . certain groups play under a certain rubric, and, despite our best efforts, we eventually begin to listen with expectations and (perish the thought!) preconceptions. As Dubya used to say, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and. . . uh. . . you can't be fooled again!". ;-)

 

Stop arguing with him, jdaniel, before things get viol-ent! nt, posted on January 13, 2017 at 06:01:19
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I must say, I'm admiring the self-restraint of many of the usual suspects in this discussion [nt] ;-), posted on January 13, 2017 at 08:52:54
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Well, someone needs a Sac in the Butt [nt] ;-), posted on January 13, 2017 at 10:08:09
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Jeez, I never knew it was a film by Louis Malle, posted on January 16, 2017 at 16:32:58
Jay Buridan
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The U.S. has been such a puritanical society :(

 

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