Greatest reviewer on the internet :-)

RE: Greatest reviewer on the internet :-), posted on June 6, 2023 at 16:11:43
TitaniumTroy Audiophile Posts: 603 Location: Mishawaka, Indiana Joined: October 14, 2006	Yes, that was quite the glowing review by Mr. Guttenburg. I've only heard them once at AXPONA and the room was just too small for me to have judged them. Looking forward to the next review with the added on attempted cardioid (dispersion pattern) subwoofers.

RE: Greatest reviewer on the internet :-), posted on June 6, 2023 at 18:20:23
Davey	It's an interesting speaker. I ultimately sold my pair after I fixed a few of the issues. I've talked to a few long time ET owners and their comments are the LFT-6 was the best speaker. And it's been down hill since then. :) I dunno. I've only listened to the LFT-8's. Dave.

RE: Greatest reviewer on the internet :-), posted on June 17, 2023 at 13:26:00
josh358 Industry Professional Posts: 12285 Joined: February 9, 2010	Wonder how the 8C with the dipole woofer sounds.

RE: Greatest reviewer on the internet :-), posted on June 19, 2023 at 13:43:49
Davey	I dunno. I actually thought the LFT-8b sounded pretty darn good once the shrieking woofer was fixed and a decent size padding resistor was installed on the tweeters. I have about three other systems in my house that sound better and I had other speaker projects to work on. That's why I sold them. The guy I sold them to is a retired lawyer and still enjoys them a lot. Dave.

What? , posted on June 20, 2023 at 17:30:52
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 36179 Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	Don't you know ETs don't have dipolar woofers? What are you thinking? Despite the use of that term on their website, we all know they are imposters!

RE: What? , posted on June 22, 2023 at 06:50:28

josh358
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Whoa, I'm ducking that one! :-)

Seriously, I think you guys were arguing past one another. According to Eminent Technology's description, it's a gradient dipole. That isn't quite a pure dipole in that it allows you to "tune" the radiation pattern by adjusting distance between the drivers and time delay.

What they show in the polar pattern graphs on their site might be called a dipocardioid. :-) It's somewhere between a dipole and a cardioid.

These techniques have long been used in microphones, e.g., in shotgun mics, and 50 years ago Olson proposed that they be applied to loudspeakers. AFAIK that was limited to sound reinforcement until relatively recently, when Martin Logan and then Eminent Technology applied it to home systems.

RE: What? , posted on June 22, 2023 at 07:03:35
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 36179 Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	His reaction reminds me of the Robin Williams bit: "Too much coffee, Bob?" According to Eminent Technology's description, it's a gradient dipole. That qualifier is absent more than once in the ad copy.

RE: What? , posted on June 22, 2023 at 08:43:03
josh358 Industry Professional Posts: 12285 Joined: February 9, 2010	Well, nobody ever accused Davey of being subtle. :-) But I suppose it's technically OK for ET to call it a dipole, since gradient dipoles are considered a variety of dipole. Confusing, though -- if others are anything like me, when I see the word "dipole," I think "figure 8 pattern." Wars have been started over less. :-)

to be clear..., posted on June 22, 2023 at 08:55:44
sbrook Audiophile Posts: 222 Location: Florida Joined: November 3, 2004	...the subject line of this thread was tongue in cheek. I don't generally consider SG's reviews to be terribly useful but I am always happy to see ET speakers getting some love in the somewhat "mainstream" media.

Which returns me to a question, posted on June 22, 2023 at 09:07:36

E-Stat
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I posed earlier (with which our buddy also found reason to argue): Why is there a dearth of full range dipolar hybrids?

I would have thought that with dipolar woofers available from Linkwitz and GR Research, adoption would become wider. Clearly mainstream products from companies like M-L, Sanders Sound, et. al. don't attempt it.

For me, it compromises coherency when fundamentals of a wide range of instruments found in the lower midrange radiate into the room differently than their harmonics.

RE: Which returns me to a question, posted on June 23, 2023 at 16:22:06

josh358
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I think it boils down to size and appearance, equalization, and capability. You can get more bass out of a box than you can out of a dipole woofer of the same size, and I think that's the main sticking point.

On top that, you need 6 dB/octave dipole equalization. With a planar, you can use tuned resonant sections to shape the response for dipole EQ, but you can't do that with a single dynamic woofer. The Linkwitz LX521 uses active equalization for dipole equalization and a separate amplifier -- the EQ was analog until Davey set them up with the Mini DSP. The GR Research uses a dedicated plate amp, also with an analog dipole equalization circuit.

Those approaches were expensive, but the ready availability of Class D plate amps with DSP has changed that.

RE: Which returns me to a question, posted on June 24, 2023 at 13:47:05
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 36179 Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	You'd think the EQ part would be easy as many monopole woofer hybrids already have a separate amplifier and/or some manner of room correction built in. Especially with big ticket models like the $120k M-L Neolith.

Neolith has neither, posted on June 24, 2023 at 14:22:37
jimbill Audiophile Posts: 2991 Location: Texas Joined: May 31, 2004	No amp for the woofers and no built in DSP. My understanding is for that kind of money buyers would want to pick their own amps and style of DSP. The 15a, 13a, and 11a have both.

Indeed, posted on June 24, 2023 at 14:40:35
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 36179 Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	still transitioning the woofer to a comparatively small 48" panel in the lower midrange where the fundamentals of voice and most instruments lie. Fundamentals via monopole woofer with harmonics via dipole panel with 30 degree radiation

RE: Which returns me to a question, posted on July 29, 2023 at 18:29:26
Analog Scott Audiophile Posts: 9583 Joined: January 8, 2002	Sanders doesn't attempt it because Roger Sanders understands the physics of dipole bass. Even the folks at Sound Lab understand the problems in the bass with full range dipoles.

Sure, posted on July 30, 2023 at 07:02:41

E-Stat
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along with the overriding benefits of coherency. Only the budget constrained home theater products are hybrids.

Positioning in room is critical and Dr. West designed the "Sallie" to assist. Lucky lad that I am, I discovered that using a mentor's "Rule of Thirds" along with bass traps achieves exceptionally linear response in the Schroeder frequencies.

I truly value the realism of intruments sounding like they don't have a multiple personality disorder. That is a critical design objective for Magnepan as well. Hearing T-IIIs in '74 was a major recalibration of my reference at the time. I clearly remember hearing The Planets and Symphonie Fantastique sound more realistic than anything else I had heard then. Not surprisingly, I've enjoyed dipoles starting with MG-IIs since I was a teenager.

Wouldn't have it any other way. :)

RE: Sure, posted on July 30, 2023 at 08:25:37

Analog Scott
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"along with the overriding benefits of coherency. Only the budget constrained home theater products are hybrids."

That was an issue back in the 70s and 80s. There have been a lot of advancements in technology since then. The Sanders are far more "coherent" from top to bottom than any full range dipole. If by coherent you mean accurate in the time and frequency domains. One thing that has not changed since the 70s and 80s are the laws of physics.

"Positioning in room is critical and Dr. West designed the "Sallie" to assist. Lucky lad that I am, I discovered that using a mentor's "Rule of Thirds" along with bass traps achieves exceptionally linear response in the Schroeder frequencies."

That doesn't magically make the back wave/ front wave cancellation in the bass go away. It's geometry. It certainly is nice to get a smooth frequency response through the narrow band of Schroeder frequencies, something that is easy enough to do with modern active digital crossovers. With a full range dipole that comes at a substantial performance cost. That cost being the loss of bass energy due to cancelation and the added distortion of multiple resonant frequencies well within the frequency range the drivers have to operate in. There's a lot of time smearing going on with drivers having to play signals that have substantial content including transients right in the driver's fundamental resonant frequencies. Dividing the resonant frequency into multiple resonant frequencies, all of which are in the frequency range those drivers have to play in is just spreading the problem and is a compromised attempt to mask the loss of the true bass energy due to dipole cancelation.

Warm and fuzzy exaggerated mid bass may sound pleasing to some folks but it certainly doesn't make the playback of acoustic instruments sound more realistic (not to my ears. YMMV) nor does it restore the deep bass. Maybe you are not sensitive to the time smearing, frequency response problems or lack of transient power in the bass that comes with the inherent limitations of a full range dipole design or the multiple resonances Sound Lab has added to try to compensate for those inherent problems.

I have no trouble hearing it. It becomes particularly obvious once you get a speaker that does not suffer from those issues.

"I truly value the realism of intruments sounding like they don't have a multiple personality disorder."

Realism is certainly a nice quality in stereo playback. To my ears the distortions that come with the compromises of a full range dipole and the specific compromises the folks at Sound Lab have used to try to deal with those inherent limitations do not increase the sense of realism. To my ears they just sound distorted. If those distortions add some sort of sense of realism to your ears then enjoy them. I certainly enjoy some added distortion from tubes and vinyl. Nothing wrong with flavoring your playback to suit your taste.

"That is a critical design objective for Magnepan as well. Hearing T-IIIs in '74 was a major recalibration of my reference at the time."

I have no doubt that in 1974 it was also quite a good speaker by the standards of the day.

"I clearly remember hearing The Planets and Symphonie Fantastique sound more realistic than anything else I had heard then. Not surprisingly, I've enjoyed dipoles starting with MG-IIs since I was a teenager."

There have been a lot of advances in 50 years. But the laws of physics haven't changed and the inherent limitations of a full range dipole speaker haven't been solved.

Maggies and Sound Labs can be very enjoyable speakers. But the state of the art has substantially changed in 40-50 years. Maggies and Sound Labs have not substantially changed their designs or design philosophies in that time.

"Wouldn't have it any other way. :)"

If you are enjoying your system that's all that really matters.

"If you are enjoying your system that's all that really matters", posted on July 30, 2023 at 08:47:00

E-Stat
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Amen!

Full range dipoles present the most realistic presentation of live, unamplified music to me. And I'm lucky to enjoy those experiences with regularity attending symphony concerts, recitals at the university where wifey teaches or when she plays her baby grand in the living room.

Warm and fuzzy exaggerated mid bass may sound pleasing to some folks but it certainly doesn't make the playback of acoustic instruments sound more realistic (not to my ears. YMMV) nor does it restore the deep bass.

Couldn't agree more! Having essentially flat measured in-room response from 30 Hz to 200 Hz with a small, but gradual rise at the bottom is a beautiful thing. No doubt you overlooked the link in previous post. ;)

RE: "If you are enjoying your system that's all that really matters", posted on July 30, 2023 at 10:03:31

Analog Scott
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"Couldn't agree more! Having essentially flat measured in-room response from 30 Hz to 200 Hz with a small, but gradual rise at the bottom is a beautiful thing. No doubt you overlooked the link in previous post. ;)"

Oh I saw it. It's pretty much what I said it would be and very much in line with what I hear with Sound Lab speakers. Very far from flat with a substantial bump in the lower mid bass and a substantial drop off in the deep bass. What would really be telling would be a waterfall plot. That would reveal the ringing at the multiple resonant frequencies causing that mid bass hump.

Like I said "Warm and fuzzy exaggerated mid bass." That might sound nice to some folks but's not a set of distortions I personally find to sound "coherent" with the rest of the frequency spectrum. If you are not hearing it or hear it and simply like it, consider it a blessing.

There is no getting around the physics. At least not so far. Roger Sanders understood this and designed accordingly making use of the substantial advancements in technology that allowed him to make a crossover that has none of the issues that plagued crossovers or multi-driver speakers from the 70s and 80s.

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