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nope. I do not think I can do the resistors

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Posted on October 4, 2020 at 16:19:52
farfetched
Audiophile

Posts: 828
Location: Cleveland!
Joined: October 13, 2010
I put in the one ohm pair.

This is after I think 2 weeks now of my LRS adventure. I mean, these are clear as a bell speakers, and the new seamlessness (for me -- prior model was mg-12's) has got me, completely. Suddenly the highest harmonics are of a piece with the fundamentals and other kin and kindred thereof. So this is what the pros call, I hear, "a good time." I'm loving it.

But that is a tingly little tweeter there. I wondered, is it bright?

I've searched the archives, and it seems no-resistor is basically the tweeter turned all the way up, so one is meant to put in a resistor.

Really? Is that what's the deal?

It's really a devil of a pickle they've decided to apparently put us in. It's like some kind of Zen Koan. "What is resistance that does not resist?" Answer: the Magnepan resistors.

Here is where I am at, in this timeless question. I played a recording where I feel the cymbals are down too far in the mix but it is a "bright" recording: whatever the current remix is of Grateful Dead's Wake of the Flood. The cymbals are there, and you can listen, they are dancing around, as they tend to do.

Without the resistor, yeah, that is a tingly tweeter there. Clear as a very high bell. Have to perhaps dial a slight notch back on the volume to not have things get too hot (for my tastes of course).

With the resistor, I can notch the volume up more and the sound doesn't start to jam up. But, those very high harmonics (my hearing is holding steady at 14k/13k knock on wood)were just now a step behind in the mix, as it were. The charm of no-resistor...

Am I a fool?

I like that tweeter.
/ optimally proportioned triangles are our friends


 

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RE: nope. I do not think I can do the resistors, posted on October 8, 2020 at 18:42:13
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12098
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
It might not be the tweeter at all. Often the speaker gets blamed for what is in front of it.

I recently put all my equipment on roller blocks and brushes. Every thing is now on some kind of isolation, like power bricks and ethernet switches. Crazy thing is that I don't have speakers but headphones.! Vibration solely from components is a thing. If you haven't used some isolation devices give it a shot. I found it really helped with the treble.

Check the tweaks section for the thread on brushes and roller balls.

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: nope. I do not think I can do the resistors, posted on October 9, 2020 at 16:56:11
Norman M
Audiophile

Posts: 1345
Location: NYC Suburb
Joined: December 9, 2012
Which reminds me that Enid Lumley (a one-time contributor to the absolute sound, among other things) reported that the direction of her kitchen's water faucet effected the sound of her audio system.
In a somewhat similar league, she has been credited the idea of lifting wires/cables up from the floor.

(https://hifiauditions.wordpress.com/2020/04/04/who-was-enid-lumley/)

 

RE: "Enid Lumley" ..., posted on October 10, 2020 at 23:38:15
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12135
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
was certainly a purveyor of arcane knowledge and I enjoyed reading her articles in TAS. :-))

But I do not understand your comment about "the direction of her kitchen's water faucet "?

We call them "taps" - so, presuming her tap had a sink either side of it, was she saying that having the tap turned to the right ... produced a different sound from her audio system than if she pushed the tap to the left sink?

Andy

 

RE: "Enid Lumley" ..., posted on October 12, 2020 at 07:38:52
farfetched
Audiophile

Posts: 828
Location: Cleveland!
Joined: October 13, 2010
Jonathan Scull thought he could tell geographic location by listening. And I don't mean "a French sound" or "a German sound."

I think he usually meant specific locations, like a particular square in a particular town, at a particular restaurant, and a particular night out, and it was nether too hot nor too cold.

I am fairly sure that is *not* what subjective reviewing is supposed to mean.

If I am off base, then let me be the first to say my system right now can best be described as "my great uncle Bill Owens." RIP. On Thursdays, after he had his evening martini.

One olive. Stirred. But if I swap out the Harmonic Tech cables and put in my Kimbers, then it sounds shaken. And that is some very sweet vermouth Magnepan has a hint of these days.



/ optimally proportioned triangles are our friends


 

RE: nope. I do not think I can do the resistors, posted on October 12, 2020 at 09:39:38
FX35
Audiophile

Posts: 86
Joined: March 6, 2020
"I've searched the archives, and it seems no-resistor is basically the tweeter turned all the way up, so one is meant to put in a resistor."

Nope, the possibility of a resistor is there for crappy room acoustics and mid-fi systems.

 

that is not what Wendell allegedly said, posted on October 12, 2020 at 09:55:27
farfetched
Audiophile

Posts: 828
Location: Cleveland!
Joined: October 13, 2010
Going off this message from Josh358:

/ optimally proportioned triangles are our friends


 

RE: "Enid Lumley" ..., posted on October 12, 2020 at 12:15:24
Norman M
Audiophile

Posts: 1345
Location: NYC Suburb
Joined: December 9, 2012
As you very correctly pointed out I meant to refer to the "tap" on the faucet. My tap swivels 360 degrees around into both sink basins yielding a near infinite number of positions to test. Yes, EL reported in TAS that different tap positions resulted in a different sound. (I had yearly subscriptions to TAS both before and after her column appeared. I found the 'rag' to be both educational and entertaining, and very importantly it had contributions by HP. (One of the Hi End founding fathers!)

 

RE: that is not what Wendell allegedly said, posted on October 12, 2020 at 17:19:33
FX35
Audiophile

Posts: 86
Joined: March 6, 2020
Of course Wendell says "the resistors are designed to be used", he can hardly say "we added resistors, but they were designed not to be used". The question you should ask yourself is, why did they add the possibility to use a resistor? There's no sense in designing a speaker that reproduces as much frequencies as possible and then add resistors causing a loss of information. Resistors fall in the same category as fuses, things that get in the way of a clean, straight signal path.

The resistors are there because they know people will use their speakers in over lively rooms or use mediocre electronics and cables resulting often in unpleasant high frequency reproduction. In a decent(acoustic) room combined with a well balanced system there should be no need for the use of a resistor.

Also, comparing a tweeter level control turned to max with a speaker designed to reproduce the complete range of high frequencies is meaningless.

 

so better models do not come with resistors?, posted on October 12, 2020 at 18:32:05
farfetched
Audiophile

Posts: 828
Location: Cleveland!
Joined: October 13, 2010
"The resistors are there because they know people will use their speakers in over lively rooms or use mediocre electronics and cables resulting often in unpleasant high frequency reproduction. In a decent(acoustic) room combined with a well balanced system there should be no need for the use of a resistor."

The top of the lines tho, surely those are educated consumers? Maybe I assume.

I'm new to this niche. Is it customary for Magnepan users to prefer mid-fi gear?
/ optimally proportioned triangles are our friends


 

RE: so better models do not come with resistors?, posted on October 12, 2020 at 19:05:34
FX35
Audiophile

Posts: 86
Joined: March 6, 2020
"so better models do not come with resistors?"

Apparently they do, could be Magnepan policy? I see no other reason for resistors unless they thought their high frequency response was flawed. I've seen and heard dozens of speakers over the years and I can't recall any with a resistor in the signal path.(controls for bass output? yes)


"the top of the lines tho, surely those are educated consumers? Maybe I assume."

Thats what I would think, but then again, I've had customers with very expensive gear that sounded like........... well, shit.

"Is it customary for Magnepan users to prefer mid-fi gear?"

Yes and no, with the cheaper models, people can not rationalize spending more money than their speakers cost , so end up with mid-fi. With the top range Maggies you see the quality of systems rise.

 

RE: that is not what Wendell allegedly said, posted on October 13, 2020 at 19:27:00
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12098
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
Did they always come with resistors?

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

:) nt, posted on October 14, 2020 at 10:39:47
Davey
Audiophile

Posts: 2160
Joined: September 26, 2013
..

 

RE: that is not what Wendell allegedly said, posted on October 14, 2020 at 13:52:00
ejman
Audiophile

Posts: 362
Location: SW Oregon
Joined: October 3, 2006
No,my MGI Imp do not have a provision to add a resistor.

 

tweet resistor, posted on October 14, 2020 at 14:33:49
DrChaos
Audiophile

Posts: 1828
Location: San Diego
Joined: July 13, 2009
"Also, comparing a tweeter level control turned to max with a speaker designed to reproduce the complete range of high frequencies is meaningless."

No it's not. The tweeter level control in other speakers works exactly the same way. It's simply less expensive the way Magnepan does it, given that there is no need for frequent adjustment.

The point is indeed to match the power response to the room's reflectivity. Nothing wrong with that.

 

RE: tweet resistor, posted on October 15, 2020 at 07:36:42
FX35
Audiophile

Posts: 86
Joined: March 6, 2020
"No it's not. The tweeter level control in other speakers works exactly the same way. It's simply less expensive the way Magnepan does it, given that there is no need for frequent adjustment"

True, I thought he was referring to a treble level control on a amp.......... my bad..

"The point is indeed to match the power response to the room's reflectivity. Nothing wrong with that."

To me, it's wrong, fix the room, not the signal. You build a concert hall to maximize the experience of a symphony orchestra, you don't ask the orchestra to "tone it down".

 

RE: tweet resistor, posted on October 15, 2020 at 08:08:59
Davey
Audiophile

Posts: 2160
Joined: September 26, 2013
A treble level control on an amplifier could/might do the same thing. IF the characteristics could be set to achieve the same shelving action an inserted resistor would.

You could make a case that fixing the room and not the signal is a valid premise, but there are numerous "room correction" systems now that do it the other way 'round. And many people are happy with the results. Dirac Live is the most common one....but there are many others.

Dave.

 

RE: tweet resistor, posted on October 15, 2020 at 16:57:38
FX35
Audiophile

Posts: 86
Joined: March 6, 2020
So true, you could argue all day about tuning the signal or tuning the room to reach the same results. Back in the "old days" a clean straight signal path was the holy grail of high- end audio, anything resembling an equalizer was a dirty word. Computers and digitalization have created new options to achieve decent sound, but the purist approach still gets my vote.

 

RE: tweet resistor, posted on October 15, 2020 at 21:37:51
Davey
Audiophile

Posts: 2160
Joined: September 26, 2013
The question then becomes what constitutes a "purist approach" considering we're not in the "old days" anymore.

Does a simple resistor in the tweeter signal path violate the "purist approach?" Hmmmmm. :)

Dave.

 

RE: that is not what Wendell allegedly said, posted on October 16, 2020 at 11:34:44
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12098
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
Interesting How old are those speakers?

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: tweet resistor, posted on October 22, 2020 at 02:41:13
FX35
Audiophile

Posts: 86
Joined: March 6, 2020
"The question then becomes what constitutes a "purist approach" considering we're not in the "old days" anymore."

A purist approach is the pursuit of a clean, straight signal path, avoiding or removing anything that would unnecessarily deteriorate or alter the source signal. This is a key factor for High-End amp + source manufacturers. Designers have often stated "A perfect design would be a straight wire with gain", thats about as pure as you can get. Thats why (quality) amps lack tone controls and use the shortest possible signal paths, we remove fuse + fuse holders, replace internal wiring, connectors + plugs or even better, make bare wire connections, all in the pursuit of reducing resistance + deterioration of the signal.
We may not be in the "old days" anymore, but that doesn't mean that digital possibilities have created a giant step forward. A top analog rig still competes with(or betters) anything digital, class D amps still cannot compete with pure class A and magneplanar speakers are still amongst the best money can buy.

"Does a simple resistor in the tweeter signal path violate the "purist approach?"

Yes.

 

RE: tweet resistor, posted on November 7, 2020 at 11:51:33
farfetched
Audiophile

Posts: 828
Location: Cleveland!
Joined: October 13, 2010
Confusion partially my fault. I used to own snells. Came with tweeter knob on the back panel, type D's. I basically assumed in my mind that kind of knob.
/ optimally proportioned triangles are our friends


 

RE: tweet resistor, posted on November 7, 2020 at 12:00:28
farfetched
Audiophile

Posts: 828
Location: Cleveland!
Joined: October 13, 2010
That's some hard medicine there.

You mean speaker crossovers? I've never heard a crossover-less speaker. I would like to sometime.
/ optimally proportioned triangles are our friends


 

RE: tweet resistor, posted on November 7, 2020 at 16:35:12
FX35
Audiophile

Posts: 86
Joined: March 6, 2020
"You mean speaker crossovers?"

That would be great! every speaker manufacturer would love to build a speaker without crossovers, but then you need a point source that could cover the entire frequency range, from top to bottom. Would like to hear that too!

 

Zu speakers?, posted on November 8, 2020 at 17:36:31
farfetched
Audiophile

Posts: 828
Location: Cleveland!
Joined: October 13, 2010
I thought that was Zu Audio's calling card?
/ optimally proportioned triangles are our friends


 

tweeter resistor = tweeter level control, posted on November 9, 2020 at 16:42:16
DrChaos
Audiophile

Posts: 1828
Location: San Diego
Joined: July 13, 2009
"Also, comparing a tweeter level control turned to max with a speaker designed to reproduce the complete range of high frequencies is meaningless."

It's not. How else do you think the tweeter controls on other speakers work?

+ = no resistor
0 = moderate resistor
- = more resisting resistor

Come on---at audio frequencies these resistors are purely ohmic devices with virtually no nonlinearity, it is nothing but a level control.

After all the tweeters themselves have that very same ohmic resistance physics because they aren't made out of superconductor!

Adapting crossover and balance to match sensitivity of drivers with appropriately sized resistors is standard practice and there isn't any magical effect on "purity" or some other nonsense. It's just a resistor and changes tweeter level and that's it.

Accounting the reflectivity of the room and balancing the sound power for it is what is important.

 

RE: Zu speakers?, posted on November 11, 2020 at 07:41:17
FX35
Audiophile

Posts: 86
Joined: March 6, 2020
Zu audio? never heard of them, probably never crossed the pond. Did check them out and they indeed try to cover the range with one driver, cool....... would like to hear them, not much chance. Ugly as hell, won't win any design awards!

 

RE: tweeter resistor = tweeter level control, posted on November 11, 2020 at 07:54:08
FX35
Audiophile

Posts: 86
Joined: March 6, 2020
Thats the second time you referred to the same sentence, and I already explained the confusion a few posts back......... short memory letting you down?

For the record, I'm no fan of external treble controls or resistors on speaker designs and that has everything to do with "purity", audible or not.

 

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