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Help with Tri-Center!

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Posted on April 16, 2014 at 07:55:01
dclamb2
Audiophile

Posts: 39
Joined: April 16, 2014



I wanted to reach out to fellow Magnepan lovers that have worked with the tri-center concept. My current setup is a pair of 1.7's, tri-center consisting of CC5 and MC1's, and is crossed over at 200 Hz. Each panel has a dedicated amplifier channel. The MC1's are wall mounted and the CC5 is cantilever mounted, extending 20 inches from the wall. I have a potentiometer to control the volume level between the CC5 and the MC1's.

I have been experimenting with many different combinations of phase/volume/angles/distances, and I just cannot seem to get the wonderful improvements that others are able to achieve using Dolby Pro Logic II Movie. Each time I switch between tri-center and stereo, my wife and I both prefer stereo. It seems as if tri-center squashes the image and everything comes from the center. The air and details of the 1.7's are lost and the sound is flat, like a Magnepan pushed up against a wall (go figure, that's what the tri-center is).

So, I am just about ready to give up. I think Magnepan is working on the restraining order against me right now for calling so many times, to no avail. If anybody has worked with or setup a tri-center, I would love to discuss specific setup points that worked or helped. Help me, Please!!!

 

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RE: Help with Tri-Center!, posted on April 24, 2014 at 10:57:47
pistonengine08
Audiophile

Posts: 24
Joined: February 25, 2013
 Just a suggestion, because I have phase on the brain right now, is double check the connections of your tri-center and make sure one of the speakers isn't out of phase (or perhaps the whole array).

Try popping in a blu-ray with audio you know is good and watching with your processor in dolby digital. If that sounds bad you probably have a problem to dig in to.

 

RE: Help with Tri-Center!, posted on April 19, 2014 at 10:14:13
dclamb2
Audiophile

Posts: 39
Joined: April 16, 2014
 Thanks for all the suggestions here. Getting the CC5 and MC1's closer to the same plane and putting absorption behind them has improved things significantly. I appreciate the advice.

 

RE: Help with Tri-Center!, posted on April 17, 2014 at 21:00:35
sd
Audiophile

Posts: 117
Location: No Cal
Joined: April 19, 2010
 Let me try to add a few possible suggestions. First, for context, my setup is the one pictured on the Magnepan web site under "Tri-Center." I have no affiliation with Magnepan, but I am a very happy tri-center customer. As you can see from the pictures, I am using a Lexicon MC-12BHD-EQ processor (although I'd love to get my hands on a Bryston SP-3 unit -- which the new Lexicon appears to be based on).

As to my suggestions:

1) As Satie has already said, playing with the delay between the L+R and the tri-center is critical and it took me several days to find the right "corrected distance" compared with the actual distance my processor calculated. In my case the processor thinks the speakers are 6 inches closer to me than they really are. I did then have the processor do the calculations to fine tune the volume of all of the speakers per my sitting area.

2) As Satie has also said, it helps to be able to adjust how much power is fed into the MCC2 "sides" vs. CCR (I do believe the ribbon tweeter in the CRR may be part of the magic, but I'm running it with 20.1s so that match may be more important).

3) I also found that playing with the reflectivity and absorption behind all of the speakers mattered. In my case, I have a lot of scattered reflections behind the tri-center, but absorption in the corners behind the 20.1's. I would also note that my television is set back about 15 inches from the radiating surface of the tri-center speakers and the cabinet largely prevents the speakers from radiating onto the screen.

4) In terms of processor settings I use a Lexicon proprietary 5.1 channel mix which favors music (the processor gives you a choice between music, film and tv settings and I always use the music setting).

5) One other way to test the setup is to play true 5.1 or 7.1 recordings (Chris Botti in Boston on BluRay is a great test disc) and then compare that sound to what the processor does in converting a 2-channel recording to 3.1 or 5.1 or 7.1. In my case, it is very hard to tell the difference between 5.1 recorded as such and a 5.1 rendition of a 2-channel recording.

All that being said, the room plays a huge role in all of this. I have a fairly large 18 by 28 foot room with 12 foot ceilings and had no choice but to run the fronts across the wide dimension of the room. Hope this gives you a few other ideas to try. Good luck.
SD

 

RE: Help with Tri-Center!, posted on April 18, 2014 at 03:56:07
dclamb2
Audiophile

Posts: 39
Joined: April 16, 2014
 Thanks for your response. The back of the CC5 is 20 inches from the wall. I think the angle of the picture is misleading. I will experiment with some absorption behind the panels. In another post, Wendell mentioned using some F13 felt behind them.

In regards to the power levels among the panels in the tri-center, what ended up being the best volume between the CCR and the MMC2's for you?

 

RE: Help with Tri-Center!, posted on April 18, 2014 at 09:54:45
sd
Audiophile

Posts: 117
Location: No Cal
Joined: April 19, 2010
 I put just slightly less power into the MMC2's than the CCR. The 20 inches between wall and the CC5 sounds good, but I assume it also means that the CC5 is on a different plane than your MC1's (is your processor capable of time aligning them to fix that?).
SD

 

RE: Help with Tri-Center!, posted on April 18, 2014 at 10:05:25
dclamb2
Audiophile

Posts: 39
Joined: April 16, 2014
 That's correct. The CC5 is 20 inches from the wall, but the MC1's are wall-mounted. This is what was recommended by Wendell. In fact, he said to get the CC5 further away from the wall, if possible. I can easily move the CC5 and have experimented with it as close as 12 inches from the wall, but that didn't seem to help any. I have the same thought about getting the MC1's away from the wall, more on plane with the CC5. I'll just have to get creative to do that.

The CC5 seems quite a bit more efficient than the MC1's. Being fed the same power, the CC5 runs about 6-8 dB hotter than the MC1's. I'm not sure if that's the case for the CCR/MMC2 combo. Then again, I could just be getting a lot of cancellation of the MC1's with them being so close to the wall.

 

RE: Help with Tri-Center!, posted on April 17, 2014 at 21:03:12
sd
Audiophile

Posts: 117
Location: No Cal
Joined: April 19, 2010
 Oh, one other comment; from your picture, it looks as though your CC5 is right up against the wall. I found that to be a real problem and had to make sure that I pulled the CCR as far from the wall as I could (about 12 inches) and then put diffraction material behind it.
SD

 

moving the tri center forward away from the screen and wall, posted on April 17, 2014 at 23:00:01
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 As with all planars that is a good idea, especially the MC1s on the sides of the screen, they are going to bounce their output right off of the screen and will not sound right. The back wave of the center panel is also an issue being so close to the wall.

As SD and stustan said, figure out how to set them further out from the wall.

 

RE: Help with Tri-Center!, posted on April 17, 2014 at 08:37:03
stustan
Audiophile

Posts: 94
Location: Long Island, New York
Joined: October 16, 2009
 dclamb2

Beautiful, beautiful setup. I am sorry it is proving problematic at the moment.

My apologies for asking but it is not clear to me if you are dissatisfied with theatrical playback, music playback, or both.

Satie seems to be on the trail with suggestions for experimentation with delay, it is evident in the physical location of your "LCR Stage"

Please let me know what your playback preferences are. Thanks!

 

RE: Help with Tri-Center!, posted on April 17, 2014 at 09:11:27
dclamb2
Audiophile

Posts: 39
Joined: April 16, 2014
 Both theatrical and music playback with the tri-center engaged is not satisfying. I like the 1.7's on their own, on both accounts. The tri-center definitely anchors center channel content, but it completely loses the airiness and detail around voices and instruments. My front wall is plaster and very reflective, so I may need absorption behind the CC5 and MC1's.

 

RE: Help with Tri-Center!, posted on April 17, 2014 at 11:06:22
stustan
Audiophile

Posts: 94
Location: Long Island, New York
Joined: October 16, 2009
 dclamb2

While I do not have a tri-center setup...I have very similar speakers and, perhaps, my experiences might help.

My home theater/music setup consists of:

1.7's for LR
CC5 and DWM as Center Channel
MC1's as rear surrounds
Rythmik F12 as sub

Theatrically I have also found that 1.7's sounded (in my system/room) fuller and "more present" without the center channel. If I tell my processor there is no center channel then I am effectively hearing the center channel info as phantom center. In my room this Phantom Center is huge, stretching across the room and is intoxicating in the Main Listening Position. Everywhere else, however, the center channel info is not anchored, "phasey", and the LCR soundstage is improperly presented.

With the center channel properly engaged the resulting "image" is not quite as large and wide in the MLP. Dialog is more focused, and less "widely spaced". Tonal balance is nearly identical either way. The dialog stays centered throughout the room and does not "wander" towards the nearest LR 1.7.

I only listen to 2 channel music in stereo mode, as 2.1. I do not like the center channel engaged as an LCR for music playback. It feels wrong and the soundstage becomes ill defined and imprecise. I find the 1.7's image spectacularly in my room as two channel stereo without center support. Please keep in mind I reposition the 1.7's for music or theater playback. One position works great with stereo and the other is perfect with 5.1. I guess that is why I am an asylum member!! I do not like my 2 channel music as PIIX or Neo6. I do, however, like music as 5.1 if it was recorded as such and meant to be played back in that format.

So after all that info about my room and habits here is my humble advice: As an experiment try dismounting the CC5 from your wall mount and move it forward. Try placing your CC5 on the same plane as your 1.7's. I have my CC5 mounted on a Sanus SFC22 stand (22"s high) with my DWM almost directly below the CC5. The LCR is all on the same plane. If you are daring and try my suggestion perhaps it might work with the tri-center theatrically and musically. Perhaps purchase the DWM and try it with the CC5 on the same plane as your 1.7's with your MC1's as support "fill". If the DWM doesn't help then return it. My belief, in a nutshell, is your CC5 might sound better (and your sound image might project correctly) if your CC5 was mounted on the same plane as your 1.7's

I also received vague and obtuse help from Wendell when I was researching my center channel needs. I decided, after many confusing phone calls with Wendell, to go the route I described above....based upon my experiences in film/television post production re-recording studios. Center channel dialog is the tightly focused anchor of a large expansive surround environment. I am very thrilled with my system.

Please do not be discouraged, I think you only need to renew your energies and begin a fresh round of experimentation and tweaking. Please do not be frustrated, from the picture you have posted and the equipment you have described I think you have a very solid foundation and need only tweak until your achieve your goals. You have a very, very beautiful room.

Best of Luck.....please keep us all informed

 

I agree with your suggestion..., posted on April 18, 2014 at 09:53:22
Tubo
Audiophile

Posts: 375
Location: So. California
Joined: June 9, 2004
 of moving the tri-center away from the front wall. I think the problem is those MC1's mounted on the wall.

I have a tri-center of sorts: a Mini-Maggie system (two satellites and an MWD) as a center channel, placed away from the front wall, in the same plane as my MMG's. It works better than any other Maggie center I've tried.

 

RE: I agree with your suggestion..., posted on April 18, 2014 at 10:15:31
stustan
Audiophile

Posts: 94
Location: Long Island, New York
Joined: October 16, 2009
 When I was purchasing my Maggies I thought about the MC1's on the wall and I was leery. That is why I went the way I did with my center channel (CC5\DWM). My suggestion to dclamb2 presupposes that the CC5 will sound better on the same plane as his 1.7's and then he can use his MC1's to "fill out and expand" the center channel image with judicious use of gain.

 

RE: Help with Tri-Center!, posted on April 17, 2014 at 05:35:39
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 The basic tri-center idea should work once everything is tuned properly and the Dolby steering that can do it is applied. We only know of the Bryston processor having the appropriate dolby steering applied, so don't expect it to work because you have the same menu item in your processor.

First you need to have the entire setup time aligned with the processor. Then you can try to make the processor setting most like the Bryston work for you. It will require changing the time delay settings on your processor to match with those applied by Bryston inside the processor - pure guess work. The relative volume levels are less important, but it is a good thing to be able to control them independent of the processing.

 

RE: Help with Tri-Center!, posted on April 17, 2014 at 06:44:01
dclamb2
Audiophile

Posts: 39
Joined: April 16, 2014
 Yeah, I guess I'll have to give up on this one. But, with all due respect, many of the people successfully implementing tri-center aren't using a Bryston SP2. Today's processors are extremely flexible and versatile. The controls of my processor are on par with the SP2. It would be nice to have more insight into what is making the SP2 click.

 

RE: Help with Tri-Center!, posted on April 17, 2014 at 07:37:47
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 I would not give up but try out the timing choices systematically till it snaps together. I would start with the center delay.

 

RE: Help with Tri-Center!, posted on April 16, 2014 at 17:55:15
Scottson
Audiophile

Posts: 706
Location: New York
Joined: July 13, 2004
 I tried a tri-center setup about three years ago - in a different space from the one I am in now - & with slightly different speaker array (20.1s, CC3 & MC1s). Even after several conversations with the folks at Magnepan, I never got it to work as I was led to believe it should. At that time it seemed that Magnepan weren't entirely sure how/why it worked & so their advice was a little vague & limited to relatively few cases. I do remember Wendell strongly advocated using the top of their line speakers for this set-up & suggested that some of the problems I was having might be due to my using the CC3 rather than the CCR. I had problems with both wiring - how to hook all the speakers up correctly in my setup - & positioning (the room was in an old brownstone & not a perfectly square box). For a variety of reasons I gave up the experiment before I got results that were anywhere near what I'd been led to anticipate. I did, however, benefit from an email exchange with someone on here who had one of the original tri-center setups (his system is the one pictured on the Magnepan site). He's a member here & may contribute to this thread - & if you haven't yet, you should try searching the archives for "tri-center". I'd be happy to answer any questions I can (PM if you wish) but I am not sure I have the answers you need ...

 

RE: Help with Tri-Center!, posted on April 16, 2014 at 18:17:56
EmailTim
 I have the Tri-Center with a CC3, MCC2's and alternate between 3.6's and 20.1's.

I have noticed that the CC3 does not match as well with the true ribbons as I would like. The CCR would probably make for a much better match with either the 3.6's or 20.1's than the CC3.

None of the dealers in my area stock a CCR (or 20.7's) so it would be a sizable purchase on faith alone to listen to either.

I think it may also have a lot to do with which surround processor you are using. Magnepan uses an older Bryston unit (I use a Anthem Statement D2V). I don't know if this is possible or not with any processor, but it would be helpful to be able to adjust how much audio info gets directed to the tri-center, versus the left and right channels. I think this could help balance out the front sound stage distribution.

I have pretty good success with what I have, but the true-ribbon/non-true-ribbon pairing still bothers me. For critical listening, I always end up going back to pure 2-channel.

 

RE: Help with Tri-Center!, posted on April 16, 2014 at 19:43:36
Scottson
Audiophile

Posts: 706
Location: New York
Joined: July 13, 2004
 Tim, These were exactly my quandaries. I was very tempted by the concept - & what seemed to be its potential but I was reluctant to shell out for a CCR without at least experiencing something of the promised magic. Likewise, the effect - at least as Magnepan have configured it - does seem quite tied to the Bryston surround unit - which I didn't have (& frankly didn't seem very attractive outside that feature).

That said, this exchange has tempted me to consider trying it again, but I think I'd need some evidence that it works outside the narrow parameters of Magnepan's advertised success stories.

 

RE: Help with Tri-Center!, posted on April 16, 2014 at 20:53:37
EmailTim
 I found placement to be important. I tried it with a twin tower entertainment cabinet and the results were not the best. I have since removed the 2-twin towers from the entertainment cabinet and am getting better results.

I also experimented getting the balance right between the MCC2's and the CC3 (using 3 separate amps). Fine tuning this balance also made an improvement for me.

I also have tweeters on the inside which seems to help.

I have wondered if adding a DWM (or 2) to the tri-center would better allow it to match the L & R channels by allowing the Tri-Center to be "full-range" (especially since a lot of the audio data is now being steered towards the center channel).


 

RE: Help with Tri-Center!, posted on April 16, 2014 at 18:09:10
dclamb2
Audiophile

Posts: 39
Joined: April 16, 2014
 I completely agree. I was expecting some amazing improvements. At this point, even a marginal improvement would be welcomed. The 1.7's on their own sound much better. I wouldn't recommend this experiment to anyone, unless you have some money burning a hole in your pocket.

 

RE: Help with Tri-Center!, posted on April 16, 2014 at 15:43:00
RickeyM
Audiophile

Posts: 2208
Location: East Coast
Joined: March 15, 2003
 That Tri-Center setup and your 1.7's are trying to do two different things acoustically and are fighting each other.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish with this setup. Are you trying to "add" something to the 1.7's that are giving you on their own?

 

RE: Help with Tri-Center!, posted on April 16, 2014 at 16:16:45
dclamb2
Audiophile

Posts: 39
Joined: April 16, 2014
 That's a good question. I am experimenting to see what the rave about the "tri-center" is. People who have heard it swear it adds a sense of depth and improved imaging, especially to vocals. All I am hearing is a loss of the beautiful depth, air, and detail from the 1.7's.

So, at this point, I agree with you. All I hear is loss, no gain.

 

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