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Busting my solar cherry

69.242.66.0
Posted on September 18, 2024 at 15:23:48
Victor Khomenko
Manufacturer

Posts: 55854
Joined: April 5, 2000
 Since we have tall trees all around the house, I never gave any serious thoughts to the solar system. But lately I started thinking about ground system.

We have good size lot with some open areas where such a system could go.

So we contacted one installer. Our energy consumption is on the crazy side - about 3000 KW/h per month, which is 2-4 times the average, according to some sites. So to provide 50% of power the solar system would have to contain 54 panels. The yard certainly allows for that and even larger installation. Personally I would go for 75% coverage.

Anyway... clearly, there is a lot of money upfront, it is not like buying a tape recorder, so I am open to any suggestion here.

This is our first stop and we have not done any negotiation yet.


 

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RE: Busting my solar cherry, posted on September 18, 2024 at 15:59:49
fredtr
Audiophile

Posts: 2114
Location: Phoenix
Joined: January 4, 2005
Contributor
  Since: August 16, 2024
 Ground mount systems are great. I suggest you basically do it yourself. Meaning buy all the stuff yourself and hire a couple of workers to assemble it. Go with micro inverters, so it is simple AC wiring. Consider a battery. I have written a number of times describing what I have done and recommend, search fredtr solar. It is become extremely easy to assemble.

 

Find a good oil/gas prospect--that's what I invested in NT, posted on September 18, 2024 at 16:02:59
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63948
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000

 

I don't know how to do investments. , posted on September 18, 2024 at 16:15:04
Victor Khomenko
Manufacturer

Posts: 55854
Joined: April 5, 2000
 I know how to earn (some) money and how to spend it... that is about it.


 

If I were 30 years younger..., posted on September 18, 2024 at 16:16:10
Victor Khomenko
Manufacturer

Posts: 55854
Joined: April 5, 2000
 ...and had a strong son in law, that would possibly be an option.


 

RE: Busting my solar cherry, posted on September 18, 2024 at 16:33:43
emailtim
Audiophile

Posts: 6303
Joined: July 2, 2017
 Check out ground mount bi-facial panels.

Easier to keep clean (dirt and snow) than roof mount.

Good production in winter with cooler temps and snow reflections to the backside.

Higher voltage strings translates to lower copper costs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v33nbi7gKcY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo0dRLSw-R0

54 panels of what size [100-600] watts ?

Folks in Texas repurpose/weld drilling pipes to make lower cost ground mount stands.


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2022/03/30 Historical Records CENSORED

 

RE: Busting my solar cherry, posted on September 18, 2024 at 16:48:11
Flemke
Audiophile

Posts: 106
Location: Chicago
Joined: December 20, 2005
 Never mount that crap on your roof. I agree that a solar field might be cool.

 

WHY I REMOVE SOLAR , posted on September 18, 2024 at 17:26:33
emailtim
Audiophile

Posts: 6303
Joined: July 2, 2017






View YouTube Video



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2022/03/30 Historical Records CENSORED

 

3,000 kW/h?, posted on September 18, 2024 at 17:49:14
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16603
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 What are you running?

The most we ever used was about 2,500 kW/h per month. That was with pool pumps, 3 high powered PCs and a rack of 4 or 5 Dell PowerEdge systems along with a half dozen UPS boxes.

Now, we're averaging about 1,500 kW/h per month without the Dells. Our system is 58 panels making about 19 MWh per year with 12.9 kWp system. We have older panels with a mix of 210w and 250w panels.

For 54 panels using 400w panels, you'd get 21.6kWp. We're in sunny California, but if the numbers follow, you should get nearly 32 MWh per year or an average of 2,666 kWh/month. Of course, the average is around March, April, September and October. Winter is lower and summer could go over 4,000 kWh/month.

-Rod

 

are you considering a tracker?, posted on September 18, 2024 at 18:03:01
mhardy6647
Audiophile

Posts: 16172
Location: New England
Joined: October 12, 1999
Contributor
  Since: October 23, 2016
 We came very close to putting one in the field to the west of our house this year. We ended up redoing our original roof-mount system (which was old and had issues with its very obsolete inverter).
The trackers are expensive, but get one every drop of juice available. They also will stow themselves if the weather gets bad and (best of all, up here in NH) they go to sleep in a vertical position at night, so they don't collect snow!

Fixed angle arrays this far north aren't optimal -- although they're not bad when optimally sited. We were looking at $30k to install a tracker, but it would have made a metric fecal-tonne ;) of energy. Our two roof-mount systems do very well (even the old configuration covered all of our needs for about 10 out of 12 months in a net metering scheme). I think we'll cover our year-round electricity use with this year's upgrade.

Back to trackers! The big name in trackers up here (at least) is Solaflect, based in Vermont. They have an excellent reputation. Our daughter & son-in-law had them install a tracker a few years back and were extremely pleased. I also found them quite pleasant to deal with. There are some other manufacturers of tracker systems, but Solaflect (again, up here, at least) is considered the sine qua non.

Seemed worth mentioning/asking. Hope you don't mind!


all the best,
mrh

 

It pays to pay for a Pro...., posted on September 18, 2024 at 18:03:56
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16603
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 That job was done by idiots.

We torn the entire roof to the bare wood and repaired any issues. Next, the solar installer mounted all of their attachments to the studs. Our roofer was another expert and he did all the flashing as he did the shingles. Finally, the solar installer mounted the panels.

We've had no trouble whatsoever.

-Rod

 

RE: It pays to pay for a Pro...., posted on September 18, 2024 at 18:22:56
emailtim
Audiophile

Posts: 6303
Joined: July 2, 2017
 100% of the SoCal solar companies that solicited our house (as well as store, mall and festival booths) over a couple of decades guaranteed no leaks and no roof damage.

100% of those SoCal companies could NOT show where those guarantees were stated in writing in their contracts but they all assured me it was covered.

Most all of those SoCal solar companies are now non-existent to honor such non-existent contractual guarantees.

Only one of those companies responded. They said my roofer guaranteed their solar roof work. When asked who my roofer was that blindly covers 3rd party modifications, they could not answer.
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2022/03/30 Historical Records CENSORED

 

I can think of a couple venues, posted on September 18, 2024 at 18:23:57
Victor Khomenko
Manufacturer

Posts: 55854
Joined: April 5, 2000
 One - we like to sleep in comfort, and to us that means 65 degrees, while it is 100 outside.

When it gets to 67 I wake up and start looking for the thermostat.

In the winter we sleep with windows open.

My audio system is all tube and it runs warm, but not THAT warm.

Other than this - I don't know. We have all LED lights in the house. Insulation is not top, but pretty good.

Go figure.


 

RE: It pays to pay for a Pro...., posted on September 18, 2024 at 20:35:41
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16603
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 If you don't know how to select a god contractor, you will get a bad job.

I've never had issues with contractors, but I'm picky and use contacts to know who is who.

-Rod

 

I'd do it in a heartbeat..., posted on September 19, 2024 at 02:40:19
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 34434
Joined: July 14, 2017
 ...but Mrs. Ghost doesn't like the esthetics.
The roof over the front of our house faces the sun all day. Would be perfect.
Houses all over the neighborhood have them.



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

That is way too fancy nt, posted on September 19, 2024 at 03:56:44
Victor Khomenko
Manufacturer

Posts: 55854
Joined: April 5, 2000
 .


 

RE: I don't know how to do investments. , posted on September 19, 2024 at 06:52:38
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63948
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 My idea is that the more we invest in solar, wind and greenie tech, the more the cost of energy will skyrocket. Ultimately solar, wind, EV, all greentech is a worthless wart on the butt of real energy commodities, and siphons valuable resources and policies away from where it should be going.

I can't tell you what to invest in, but I bought 4 units in a first round private placement for a startup exploring and developing a prospect mostly on federal land in Wyoming. Each dollar got me a share in the company's stock, overriding royalties, net revenue interest in the initial well, and tax benefits.

When everyone says to invest in solar and EVs, that's when I know it's time to invest in oil and natural gas.

 

RE: I can think of a couple venues, posted on September 19, 2024 at 07:59:24
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16603
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 I get that. If it's AC that's the culprit, then you should see a huge drop in usage by October to March or whatever. Do you see that trend?

Solar is always a great idea, but you could also look into your current system. Older AC units aren't terribly efficient. New heat pumps might made a big difference. Another option is too add a mini-split unit just for the bedroom so you can control the temperature in the bedroom without freezing the whole house.

We didn't have AC and adding it would have required a whole new system with all new attic ducting. We opted instead to add mini-splits for the bedrooms with separate controls for each room and it works well for those odd heat waves in late August or September.

-Rod

 

Actually... and shokingly..., posted on September 19, 2024 at 08:14:31
Victor Khomenko
Manufacturer

Posts: 55854
Joined: April 5, 2000
 Yesterday I got the monthly plot and instead of the expected summer peak I saw the winter one. I will post it here later. The summer months were actually unremarkable, close to the average level.

The heat pump is very recent, 3 or 4 yo only, quite efficient.

And I tried the mini split idea, but my wife shot it down, she doesn't want boxes hanging on the wall.

I need to ask our AC guys to look at the transition point setting, where the resistive backup kicks in. At some point I know it was initially set way too high, perhaps they did it again, as they service it annually. That would possibly explain the winter peak.


 

I fully agree with you regarding investing in "green" energy, posted on September 19, 2024 at 08:19:09
Victor Khomenko
Manufacturer

Posts: 55854
Joined: April 5, 2000
 Ironically, I was a strong advocate of solar energy LONG before it became a reality, and still am, with one caveat: no government involvement, and the panels are sold and bought at their true cost.

There was time early in that craze when you could get 80% back on your installation.

Unfortunately for most of us, only rich folks could afford the initial cash outlay, so we were all subsidizing their lifestyle.

This is government at work.


 

The plot, posted on September 19, 2024 at 09:21:47
Victor Khomenko
Manufacturer

Posts: 55854
Joined: April 5, 2000



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RE: The plot, posted on September 19, 2024 at 10:10:50
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16603
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 Am I seeing this correctly?

It appears that the highest usage is over 6,000 in February. That would seem that the base usage is about 2,000 per month with the peaks in winter being due to heating.

How big is your house? We used to get electric peaks in winter due to Christmas lights until I bought new LED lights.

One of the HVAC guys that I know set up his house to have temperature controls in bedrooms and other rooms to open and close the ducts automatically for some areas to avoid wasting power.

-Rod

 

You are reading it correctly, posted on September 19, 2024 at 11:03:09
Victor Khomenko
Manufacturer

Posts: 55854
Joined: April 5, 2000
 The house is a single story ranch, about 2,600 sq. feet.

I think there are two things in action here.

One - open bedroom windows in the winter, and two, as I mentioned, I am afraid they set the trip point for auxiliary heater too low.

The second issue is easy to identify and fix, if wrong, the first one is harder. :)


 

We have a variable speed HVAC system., posted on September 19, 2024 at 12:26:00
srdavis2000
Audiophile

Posts: 10813
Location: Deep South
Joined: January 11, 2003
Contributor
  Since: December 16, 2004
 There is an option (that we didn't get) to control the temperature in individual areas or rooms.

 

RE: You are reading it correctly, posted on September 19, 2024 at 12:49:25
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16603
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 One other issue that stuck me is whether you're programming the HVAC versus running 24/7.

I run the heat from 5AM to 10AM and then 4PM to 10PM. But then, we don't have days even in winter lower than the mid 60s. Our gas heater hasn't turned on since May.

-Rod

 

I program it..., posted on September 19, 2024 at 12:58:25
Victor Khomenko
Manufacturer

Posts: 55854
Joined: April 5, 2000
 ...by hand... as there is no way I can set some consistent regular schedule.

For instance, these days as I wake up at 5:30 or so I turn the heater ON, set to 67 degrees, so it would be more comfortable for my wife to get up. Daytime temp depends on the circumstances, on what you are doing, but typically hovers around 70, and in the evening, when we go to watch our Ukrainian bloggers, I gradually drop it in steps, all the way to 65 before going to bed.

I play my system most days, for 2-3 hours, and that is probably 2KW total. So OK, it is 4KWh a day, or 120 a month, a small portion of our total bill of over 3000. My wife cooks some, but not huge amount, so I do believe most of the bill comes from the HVAC.


 

RE: I'd do it in a heartbeat..., posted on September 19, 2024 at 13:29:13
Inmate51
Industry Professional

Posts: 2805
Location: Dallas, TX
Joined: August 12, 2022
 If you did it, what would be your goal?

1. Stop man-caused global warming.
2. Save money.

Let's review: You and 100 million other Americans aren't gonna stop man-caused global warming. Hopefully, you and all other Americans know that.

How much would it cost? How long before you break even (not "get ahead", just break even).

Could your money be better invested elsewhere?

These are some of the questions which your solar panel salesman doesn't want to talk about.

*********

We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.

 

Class-D is the future, posted on September 19, 2024 at 13:56:36
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15397
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 Yeah, I know, you like the tube sound of your products.

I like the idea of a tracking mirror and fewer solar cells, but I'm on the fence with solar because of too many trees around my house.

I like the idea of solar carports, though.

 

I hope you and your investment doesn't get burned ;-), posted on September 19, 2024 at 15:38:22
JDK
Audiophile

Posts: 20171
Location: Sydney
Joined: June 26, 2000





Research is pointing to solar and wind becoming the cheaperst of all forms of generation after 2030.


Trying to hide from entropy
John K

 

Consider the source, posted on September 20, 2024 at 06:40:26
Jazz Inmate
Audiophile

Posts: 63948
Location: Bay Area, California
Joined: April 5, 2000
 I wouldn't trust the slant of that blog. Solar and wind rely on petroleum products and other commodities, and the energy produced is difficult to store or ship anywhere. It's turning tax dollars into inefficient, unsustainable energy, and it's no better for the environment if scaled.

 

If you're curious - I finally took a photo of our current system(s) today, posted on September 21, 2024 at 18:21:09
mhardy6647
Audiophile

Posts: 16172
Location: New England
Joined: October 12, 1999
Contributor
  Since: October 23, 2016
 We finally had nice-ish autumnal sunshine shortly before sunset today. :-p
Here's the back (south) side of the house early this evening. The system on the main part of the house was installed this summer, replacing the original PV array put on the house in 2011 when it was built (I'll spare you the backstory on why we decided to replace it). The array on the garage/loft was installed in 2017.

DSC_0431

We added capacity with the new system, which has been very nice. We've been making 50 kW-hr of energy on long sunny summer days. Of course, up as far north as we are, with fixed-angle arrays (and vastly different amounts of sunshine in the winter compared to summer) the output'll drop considerably soon. :( With net metering, though, this should provide enough juice for at least close to all of our year-round needs.
all the best,
mrh

 

RE: Consider the source, posted on September 22, 2024 at 03:27:07
JDK
Audiophile

Posts: 20171
Location: Sydney
Joined: June 26, 2000
 I have considered the source.
Perhaps you should do so too.



Trying to hide from entropy
John K

 

That doesn't look like a very large array, posted on September 23, 2024 at 07:54:49
Victor Khomenko
Manufacturer

Posts: 55854
Joined: April 5, 2000



I presume your energy consumption is moderate?

Here is an installation I see on my rides... it is pretty large, but at 66 panels it is smaller, than the installer is recommending me. His recommendation is for an 84 panel array, that would supply about 75% of our needs.

I think something in that equation is ridiculous.


 

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