Reuters-Ipsos poll shows support for Israel dropping...

Not really..., posted on November 15, 2023 at 19:58:11
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 48887 Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM Joined: February 26, 2001 Contributor Since: September 3, 2024	There will be an 'exchange' of prisoners (50 women and children plus some Americans?) and a few days (maybe 4?) of suspended hostilities. Israelis are in on the negotiations (haven't given a final OK but they will) so Biden's fine. First they came for the dumb-asses And I did not speak out Because I was not a dumb-ass

so..., posted on November 15, 2023 at 20:41:20
Jim Pearce Audiophile Posts: 23879 Joined: January 4, 2002	That should be good for a week.

Gaza City is leveled...., posted on November 16, 2023 at 06:13:18

Ivan303
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Nothing much left to do except root our Hamas left in bunkers and tunnels.

Iran has gone public with the fact they do not intend to intervene in any serious way, Crazies with Hezbollah the same.

They now claim not to have been part of the plan, likely for a couple reasons. The attack, rape and murder of over 1000 Israeli civilians is a bit much even for them? OK, maybe not. Certainly the flattening of Gaza might have been a bit more than they bargained for, if bargain they did?

US response in the Eastern Med maybe gives Iran pause. The don't have the bomb YET, after all.

Pretty big price to pay all-round if this was indeed an Iranian approved plan to further isolate Israel from the world by forcing them into what the 'larger world' might consider an over-reaction.

With 8 billion people in the world, what we think means less day by day. Yes we have nukes, but our ground forces don't begin to match even the likes of North Korea; tough talk from behind keyboards here or from members of congress who 'never served' notwithstanding.

So morn for the thousand plus raped and murdered Israelis and the near-ten thousand non-combatants in Gaza who became, by Israeli military standards, 'collateral damage'.

Anyone who has spent any time in the ME over the last 50 years could see this one coming.

First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

Military Logistics , posted on November 16, 2023 at 08:44:18

Mike B.
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When the leaders of Israel unleashed their military to go into Gaza they delegated the strategy of it to their generals. Unfortunately the best approach dealing with this enemy and the congested conditions is what they have taken. It is somewhat like the decision to drop the bombs on Japan. Going it and weeding out the enemy would have resulted in a very high mortality rate for our troops. Same deal there from what I have seen.
I am personally sorry it came to this. Much of the same old shit that has been periodically happening since 1948.

Up to 50% of those "murdered Israelis". . . , posted on November 16, 2023 at 11:36:22

Chris from Lafayette
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. . . may have been "collateral damage" from their own troops. I'm sure you're aware of these reports.

Israelis killed by friendly fire

Or, as reported in another publication:

Indeed, it appears that on October 7, Israel's military resorted to the same tactics it has employed against civilians in Gaza, driving up the death toll of its own citizens with the indiscriminate use of heavy weapons.

In any case, if you enforce an open air prison on a population for decades, you should expect to have some blowback when the prison riot gets going, and the prisoners strike back, sometimes blindly, at the prison guards.

As one of the posters on Caitlin Johnstone's column at the Consortium News site states:

If "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" means the end of the state of Israel, it's only because the state of Isreal will not allow Palestine to be free. Those who denounce this slogan are admitting as much.

Meanwhile, Israeli Ambassador to the UK Tzipi Hotovely vigorously defends her slogan, "Between the sea and the Jordan River, there needs to be one state only - the state of Israel," which she maintains is entirely innocent, while "Palestine will be free" is [supposedly] blatant genocidal antisemitism.

See the video below, especially from about 1 minute 30 seconds (the whole video is only 4 minutes):

View YouTube Video

Shame on them for trying to defend themselves, posted on November 16, 2023 at 11:44:36
Jazz Inmate Audiophile Posts: 63821 Location: Bay Area, California Joined: April 5, 2000	You're a sick puppy.

"It is somewhat like the decision to drop the bombs on Japan" Oh yeah?, posted on November 16, 2023 at 11:49:42

Jazz Inmate
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So an incursion with troops in hopes of recovering hostages is somewhat like dropping nuclear bombs? Interesting analogy. Sounds like BS to me, but what do I know.

The IDF is run by generals but there is a bottom-up structure to military incursions where the officers listen to the soldiers and adapt to the realities on the ground.

I also find your "same old shit" to be BS. This was the worst atrocity against Jews since WW2. It was not the same old shit, and trying to whitewash it as such does no one any favors.

I'll give you a WW2 analogy, posted on November 16, 2023 at 12:19:21
PabloP Audiophile Posts: 14895 Location: So. Cal Joined: January 23, 2001	If Hitler had a command center under a hospital, we would have bombed the shit out of the hospital.

They did, posted on November 16, 2023 at 14:10:21
Uncle Mike	It was Dresden.

Did anyone accuse the US of genocide? NT, posted on November 16, 2023 at 14:59:35
Jazz Inmate Audiophile Posts: 63821 Location: Bay Area, California Joined: April 5, 2000

No... he simply never met a fascist he didn't like. , posted on November 16, 2023 at 15:44:26

Victor Khomenko
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At least he is consistent.

This operation was clearly orchestrated by Moscow, so what's not to like?

RE: Did anyone accuse the US of genocide? NT, posted on November 16, 2023 at 15:49:43
immatthewj	Some have referred to the bombing of Dresden as a war crime.

"Some" say Jews drink the Christian babies blood. , posted on November 16, 2023 at 15:52:17
Victor Khomenko Manufacturer Posts: 55610 Joined: April 5, 2000	There is "some" for anything.

It was a response to the bombing of the 1000 year old Coventry Cathedral, posted on November 16, 2023 at 16:06:14
Chris Garrett Bored Member Posts: 16696 Location: Miami, Florida Joined: October 9, 1999 Contributor Since: June 19, 2000	and oh boy , was Churchill pissed! Chris

RE: "Some" say Jews drink the Christian babies blood. , posted on November 16, 2023 at 16:07:42

immatthewj

The question was whether "anyone" ever accused the US of genocide related to the fire-bombing of Dresden..
All I could find, after a a few cursory searches, was that there were "some" historians whe referred to it as a war crime.

I have read many accounts, posted on November 16, 2023 at 16:18:34

Victor Khomenko
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Here is a great book if you have not read it.

Excellent

RE: I have read many accounts, posted on November 16, 2023 at 16:53:36
Sondek Audiophile Posts: 9921 Location: Fort Worth Joined: May 17, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	Hmmmmmm. That Montana Wildhack! Whata gal.

RE: I have read many accounts, posted on November 16, 2023 at 18:26:32

immatthewj

I have read it.
Although I have enjoyed a few other short works by Vonnegut, that one didn't have the same effect on me as it apparently has had, over the decades, on an extremely large number of readers.
However I could also say that about some other books that have been regarded quite highly for quite a long time by quite a large number of readers.

I will fall back on the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" (or this case, reader) cliche.

RE: "Some" say Jews drink the Christian babies blood. , posted on November 16, 2023 at 23:44:19
JDK Audiophile Posts: 20092 Location: Sydney Joined: June 26, 2000	Bombing Dresden was Churhills decision. I guess the US could be complicit in a court of law for going along with it ..... if that would ever happen. Trying to hide from entropy John K

If they're trying to defend themselves. . . , posted on November 17, 2023 at 01:04:58

Chris from Lafayette
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. . . you'd think that at least they'd defend against the actual danger instead of killing their own citizens.

BTW, I've read that the Israeli response does not show "proportionality". What do you think? It's already more than an order of magnitude. When do you think it will be enough?

But wait! Here's the ACTUAL reason Likud Israel wants to wipe out the Palestinians:

View YouTube Video

And you were saying that someone was a sick puppy?

. . . says the nut-case supporter of the Bandera-worshipping Kiev regime, posted on November 17, 2023 at 01:08:59
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 27205 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012	What's the matter, Victor? - people losing interest in forking over still more money and weapons to Bandera-kraine?

so what happened to you??, posted on November 17, 2023 at 02:15:16
Story Audiophile Posts: 11158 Location: NJ Joined: December 11, 2000	...Lafayette - French aristocrat who fought in the Continental Army with the American colonists against the British in the American Revolution Cur Non motto

No, it wasn't., posted on November 17, 2023 at 03:11:45

ghost of olddude55
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Bombing was the only way England could hit back at Germany.
The RAF originally tried daylight precision raids, but the bombers got slaughtered. Switched to night time raids and quickly realized that if the bombs fell within 100 miles of the intended target, it was pure luck.
So the decision was made to area bomb instead. From there, it took on a life of its own, particularly after Arthur Harris became head of Bomber Command.
Harris never made a secret of his desire to kill German civilians. You could look it up.
Dresden was bombed simply because it would burn. The raid didn't bring the end of the war one day or one hour closer and it wasn't revenge for Coventry either.
The idea of strategic bombing took hold in the US and Britain between the wars. There was a belief that a country could be brought to its knees without the need for ground forces, coupled with a belief that the bomber could always get through to the target.
Both beliefs were wrong.

The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

Question: How many civilians are you allow to kill to get one Hama?, posted on November 17, 2023 at 05:09:26

Feanor
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I would like see Hamas effectively destroyed because (a) they are vicious terrorists, and (b) they oppose the two-state solution.

Hamas in Gaza are dug in under civilian cover; rooting them out will inevitably result in some "collateral damage". But how much is permissible? Give me a ratio: fewer than 1 civilian for 1 Hamas fighter? 1:1? 5:1? 10:1?

Israel has a record of "disproportionate response" in responding to Palestinian terrorist attacks and violent demonstrations. The fact is that we are seeing it again. 1400 Israelis died in Hamas' barbarous attack; in the Gaza bombardment and incursion >12,000 Gazans have died, (including 4500+ children). We are reaching the infamous 10:1 ratio.

Consider that in the long history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, Palestinians "haven't learned the lesson". Nor will they until there is a just resolution to the conflict.

Regarding WWII (for example), "area bombing" initiated by the British and eventually copied by the Americans was design, in official jargon, to destroy the homes of civilian workers. In result it destroyed a lot of homes also worker, but had minor effect on German war production. Today would be considered a war crime.

The American A-bombing of Japanese cities would likewise be considered a war crime today. It's only redemption was that it ended the war and saved the lives hundreds of thousands of Japanese and Allied troops who would have died in an invasion.

But again, Israel killing 14,000 Gazans is NOT going to end their conflict.

Dmitri Shostakovich

RE: Question: How many civilians are you allow to kill to get one Hama?, posted on November 17, 2023 at 05:15:20

Uncle Mike

Referring back to my Sunday post it is running at a 10/1 ratio. Apparently that is acceptable to some. Of course kornmenko would want a 100% kill ratio.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/12/israel-hamas-war-data-shows-

"12,000 Gazans have died" And you know that HOW?, posted on November 17, 2023 at 05:50:11
Victor Khomenko Manufacturer Posts: 55610 Joined: April 5, 2000	Not from the source that told us about 500 killed by an Israeli missile, by any chance?

Some folks believe everything Hamas says. Like the idiots at the UN for example NT, posted on November 17, 2023 at 07:11:08
Jazz Inmate Audiophile Posts: 63821 Location: Bay Area, California Joined: April 5, 2000

you're making no sense, posted on November 17, 2023 at 07:29:07

Jazz Inmate
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Proportionality? Like you mean you wanted the response to be Israel goes on a surprise sneak attack, murders, r@pes, burns people alive, cooks babies in ovens, beheads, takes random people back across the border, spits on them, abuses them, gang r@pes them, keeps them in caves...that proportionality would make you happy? You're a sick puppy.

No thanks. Israel will respond as it needs to.

The conspiracy of natural gas is pretty wild. You've been showering the Palestinians with cash for decades. Why didn't they drill for the gas instead of drilling their terror tunnels?

You don't just assume natural gas is some place. You need to drill, acquire logging data. Where's the data?

RE: Military Logistics short cut, posted on November 17, 2023 at 07:38:45

tomservo
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There was an old joke about an Indian moving because his teepee was full.

A more peaceful solution would be to "smoke them out" by marking and monitoring every tunnel entrance they find and routing the working sewer systems in the area into them, maybe truck septic waste in from Israel.
Eventually they will fill. I guess sea water would be faster but sewer more poetic slower and give them a chance to give up

Here dopey, posted on November 17, 2023 at 09:06:52

Uncle Mike

It took all of 2 minutes to find this and from Times of Israel no less.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-ongoing-war-bp-and-eni-am

RE: Question: How many civilians are you allow to kill to get one Hama?, posted on November 17, 2023 at 09:18:04
tomservo Manufacturer Posts: 8615 Joined: July 4, 2002	Not sure, what was the ratio of Babies, children and elderly tortured and killed for each Israeli soldier the attackers killed. That might be a way to act more "in kind" if you could get the Israeli soldiers to do stuff the Hamas folks did ....but i don't think "normal people" can do what some of the Hamas attackers did, certainly not with "glee" the attackers captured on their video's..

Those are offshore...you said Gaza. Nice try but you're still lying NT, posted on November 17, 2023 at 09:51:27
Jazz Inmate Audiophile Posts: 63821 Location: Bay Area, California Joined: April 5, 2000

Well done! Your posts are improving! [nt] ;-), posted on November 17, 2023 at 11:41:43
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 27205 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012

I like the reader question in Mike's Times of Israel link, posted on November 17, 2023 at 11:49:24
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 27205 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012	And maybe it's a question you can answer: how much blood is that oil worth? BTW, have you ever heard of the concept of territorial waters?

are you trying to kill me with kindness now? , posted on November 17, 2023 at 11:51:11
Story Audiophile Posts: 11158 Location: NJ Joined: December 11, 2000	forgettaboutit

You need to be a sovereign state to have territorial waters. You're as confused as Feigner, posted on November 17, 2023 at 12:37:59
Jazz Inmate Audiophile Posts: 63821 Location: Bay Area, California Joined: April 5, 2000	So let me get this straight. Israel invaded Gaza not because of the worst atrocities against Jews since WW2 but because it wants to drill for offshore oil. Is that really your idiotic position? Just when I thought that antisemites couldn't get more stupid and heartless. Thanks for opening my eyes.

Funny how the focus is shifted from 1300 slaughtered . . . , posted on November 17, 2023 at 14:24:18
Billy Wonka Audiophile Posts: 3840 Joined: April 25, 2013 Contributor Since: October 15, 2013	and thousands of incoming rockets to people who are human shields for the garbage that rules them. The UN ought to be shut down or moved to Tehran.

Tens of thousands of mostly unwilling "human shields", posted on November 17, 2023 at 15:37:32
Steve O Audiophile Posts: 12523 Location: SE MI Joined: September 6, 2001	Seems tragic enough to be worthy of some focus. When considering UN HQ moves, Beijing ought to be a prime if not the prime consideration.

Yes - that is not only my position, but. . ., posted on November 18, 2023 at 01:34:51

Chris from Lafayette
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. . . it's also that of most of the world.

Any criticism of Likud Israel gets placed in the "antisemitic" compartment of what passes for a brain in your head. Don't forget that these "worst atrocities" were aided and abetted by Israel itself killing their own citizens. I can see that it frustrates you no end that your shoot-from-the-hip "antisemitism" smear campaign doesn't seem to be working as much anymore.

As Caitlin Johnstone notes, "People are gradually becoming aware that accusations of anti-semitism are used by Israel apologists to stagnate and stifle support for Palestinian rights, and are beginning to take those accusations a lot less seriously. There's only so many times you can watch dishonest smear campaigns [on the part of the Israeli government] before you start to figure out that you're being manipulated."

"In fact actual anti-semites are some of Israel's strongest allies. The lion's share of forceful support for Israel in the United States comes not from Jews but from Christian Zionists who support Israel because they believe it will bring Jesus back so he can damn all non-Christians to eternal hellfire. Televangelist John Hagee, who believes Hitler was sent by God to help create Israel, had a prominent speaking spot at Tuesday's 'March for Israel' in Washington DC.

"While people who hate Jews so much they want them to writhe in eternal hellfire are warmly embraced as allies of convenience by Israel and its supporters, healthy [people] who oppose racism in all its forms are attacked by Israel apologists as Nazis and Jew-haters. This is because the actions [of Israel and its supporters] are not designed to protect Jews or reduce anti-semitism - their actions are to facilitate the strategic objectives of the Israeli government and its allies.

"What's happening in Gaza right now isn't about Jews or Judaism at all; it's about using violent force to take land and resources away from an indigenous population, as history has seen happen time and time again in situations that had nothing to do with Jews - and people who've noticed the same patterns in Israel that they've seen in all the other settler-colonial projects over the last 500 years are being shouted down and bullied into staying silent using some of the most unethical manipulations ever devised."

So, by all means, rattle on as much as you want about antisemitism, as today's version of the "Final Solution" plays out in Gaza! Your nutcase logic is now being seen for what it actually is - a lame attempt at intimidation. As for "stupid and heartless", I think that's more up your alley as you cheer on the genocide of the Palestinians in Gaza.

Who you gonna trust, eh? Now please give me a ratio, posted on November 18, 2023 at 04:05:53

Feanor
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I'll admit I get most of my news from TV, some from news websites. NA new sources have a significant biased towards Israel, (Canadian as well as American); coverage of the Palestinian POV is spotty and condescending. To bias that NA bias I watch Al Jazeera; is it biased towards Palestinians? Yes it is, but not more so than, e.g., CNN, is towards Israel.

Notable is the fact that Al Jazeera has reporters on the ground in Gaza whereas CNN, et al., are reporting from inside Israel.

Dmitri Shostakovich

That was the plan, posted on November 18, 2023 at 04:41:53
Victor Khomenko Manufacturer Posts: 55610 Joined: April 5, 2000	And the world, being stupid and anti-Semitic, always follows.

Whatever it takes! [nt] ;-), posted on November 18, 2023 at 11:32:42
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 27205 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012

RE: Whatever it takes! [nt] ;-), posted on November 18, 2023 at 11:56:46
Story Audiophile Posts: 11158 Location: NJ Joined: December 11, 2000	it won't work

It's a common anti-semitic trick to blame Jews for the hatred directed against them, posted on November 18, 2023 at 13:22:30
Jazz Inmate Audiophile Posts: 63821 Location: Bay Area, California Joined: April 5, 2000	That seems to be the thrust of your post. I could go line by line in refuting it, but there's no point. You've adopted the position of the nazis of the 21st century. When you're this far gone to the point where you need to whitewash atrocities like 10/7 a month after it happens...well, 'nuff said.

RE: Up to 50% of those "murdered Israelis". . . , posted on November 18, 2023 at 13:27:53

Mali
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https://www.foxnews.com/world/israel-police-say-extreme-sexual-violence-rape-by-hamas-terrorists-was-systematic

https://www.foxnews.com/world/israel-police-say-extreme-sexu

"I could go line by line in refuting it, but there's no point", posted on November 19, 2023 at 01:25:26

Chris from Lafayette
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Of course there's no point, because you don't have a leg to stand on. All you can do is pathetically make wild "Antisemite" accusations. You are so blinded that you can't even see how the current Likud government (and the Israelis who support it) have turned into the very Nazis who committed atrocities against them (or their ancestors) in WW2. We've always known that Israel is an apartheid state, but it's current policies are much more pathological than mere apartheid is: it's now a genocidal state too. And you know it, but, pathetically, you'll never admit it. You would have us believe that the atrocity clock started on October 7. As Jonathan Cook recently wrote in Consortium News, people like you "want to wipe from the scorecard decades of atrocities by Israel towards Palestinians: ethnic cleansing, massacres, colonisation, siege, violent dispossession".

Well. . . you can't say I didn't try! [nt] ;-), posted on November 19, 2023 at 01:31:14
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 27205 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012

Fox News is not a good source, and, in any case. . . , posted on November 19, 2023 at 01:46:56

Chris from Lafayette
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. . . the Israelis themselves have already been caught putting out false information.

https://thegrayzone.com/2023/11/18/video-what-happened-octob

Hey, it's a holy war ! None of this stuff matters in a holy war., posted on November 19, 2023 at 07:32:04
peppy m. Audiophile Posts: 2394 Joined: February 19, 2021	Even if the holiness is mostly in Palestinian underwear. Those poor Gazans...

there's no point because you either don't know what terms like "genocide" and "apartheid" mean..., posted on November 19, 2023 at 16:52:18

Jazz Inmate
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...or you're too stupid...or you're just a nattering antisemite.

In each case it is a waste of my time but I'll give you a couple hints: the society that's growing with the fastest birthrate on earth is not being genocided. If Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians it certainly would not be hard for one of the most powerful militaries on earth, and they wouldn't be doing it with soldier-led incursions. Hint #2: the society with the most plurality in terms of race and ethnicity is not guilty of apartheid; the society with the least plurality and most intolerance that just displayed their barbarity for all to see is guilty of apartheid. They'd be guilty of genocide too if they ever got their shit together, which is all you seem to dream of.

So, IOW, you have no points. . . , posted on November 20, 2023 at 13:22:54

Chris from Lafayette
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. . . and you blow smoke by shouting "Antisemite" to cover yourself.

I'll give you a pro hint: one side in this conflict (the occupying side) has announced its intention to wipe out the entire population of the other side, not with soldier-led incursions, but by cutting off food, water, medicine, and heat (energy in general) - not to mention bombing the shit out of civilian targets, all the while serving up a big stew of disgusting fake stories for propaganda. ("Mein Kampf", with passages underlined and highlighted, found in a children's living room? How stupid does Likud Israel think people are?) The way your addled brain interprets these announced intentions and propaganda lies is to classify them as perfectly legitimate and to suppose that the other side would do the same thing, all the while shouting "Antisemite! Antisemite!" to those who point the facts.

Your bald assertion that there is no apartheid (much less genocide!) is absurd and everyone can see it. No place for you to hide anymore.

... To the 14,000 slaughtered, posted on November 20, 2023 at 14:56:57
Feanor Audiophile Posts: 10088 Location: London, Ontario Joined: June 17, 2003 Contributor Since: March 12, 2004	Somebody asked me if I'd think that Hamas was guilty for all that. I reply that, YES indeed, Hamas is certainly guilt for every single Palestinian death ... but 100% so. The percentage of Hamas guilt declines as the number of civilians actually killed by IDF rises. Dmitri Shostakovich

Inmate Central

Reuters-Ipsos poll shows support for Israel dropping...

69.158.173.108