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motor oil standards

172.56.241.43
Posted on September 20, 2023 at 16:49:57
pictureguy
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Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Continue to improve. Or at least evolve.

These days an API (American Petroleum Institute) standard of SP or SP Plus is the latest.
I think my car is 'happy' with the prior standard, of SN.

But more confusing and In Parallel are both European and GM standards.....
My brother had a Dodge which needed a European standard oil.....I'm sure you BMW guys have some input in THIS, while the engine in my brothers truck was an Italian built VMMotori V6 diesel of 3.0 liters. It BLEW UP on him at about 18,000 miles......

And GM is hyping something called 'dexos' which is now up to Gen 3.

And to make it even weirder? the book coming with my Mazda calls for 0-20 in the US while Canada and Mexico can BOTH use a 10-30. Same Engine, as near as I can tell but the US places a premium on Fuel Economy.

My 'feel' for this whole thing is that those who change at 5000 miles to 7500 miles can get away with nearly any modern oil. Synthetic best....As long as the filter is changed at that time, as well.

I see at Walmart of all places, a FRAM filter called the Synthetic Endurance....even higher rated than the Ultra Synthetic.....
It uses glass media is is rated for 25000 miles. Might it really go 2x 5000 mile Oil Only changes?
IOW? Swap filters every OTHER change?

Royal Purple makes a very high end filter, too, as does AMSOIL. I suspect all are frome the same manufacturer. The Tea Leaf reader types look at some 'tells' to determine who makes what.
Too much is never enough

 

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if only that danged 0W-20 oil were viscous enough to stay IN engines (nt), posted on September 20, 2023 at 17:31:56
mhardy6647
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Posts: 15786
Location: New England
Joined: October 12, 1999
Contributor
  Since: October 23, 2016
 enn tee

all the best,
mrh

 

GM and Ford use wet timing and/or oil pump drive belts., posted on September 20, 2023 at 17:39:57
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 30634
Joined: July 14, 2017
 Those belts break down when exposed to oil and the slurry clogs the oil pickup in the sump. I pulled up the owners manual for the 2024 Chevy Trax and the Dexos additive is required. Dexos goes back to 2011, so it predates the wet belt engines, but I'll wager that the current version has something in it to decrease belt breakdown. Recommended change interval for the belt, by the way, is 150K miles. The oil pump is supposed to be replaced at the same time, which tells me that slurry from the belt breaking down happens to the GM engines, too.
Dexos (I know GM spells it with a lower case "d" but screw them) is easy to find. Every major brand sold at WalMart has at least one oil with Dexos.
AFAIK, Ford's required oil is also easy to find.
I only drive about 5K miles per year so I change twice annually, oil and filter. I have a Chevy, it's too old to require Dexos, but it's in Mobil One anyway. Most recent change, I switched to Kendall GT-1 with Liquitek. It's a blend, not a full synthetic. The engine is running quieter than it did with Mobil One, but my gas mileage isn't as good. I'm averaging about half a mile per gallon less than with Mobil One.
I bought a case of the Kendall, once it's gone I'm going to try Castrol's full synthetic.
5w-30 is specified for my car's engine. The teacup turbo triples GM uses in the Trax, Trailblazer, Buick Envista and Encore GX also require 5w-30.
I always use Wix filters, but I might start using GM Genuine or AC Delco once the Wix filters are gone (I always have filters on hand). AC Delco air filters fit the Cobalt's airbox better than any of the other brands.
Something often forgotten is the fluid in the manual gearbox. Earlier this year, I replaced the fluid with Royal Purple Synchromax. Chevrolet specifies ATF for the Cobalt's manual transaxle. I can get AC Delco fluid from Crate Engine Depot, and I think I might order a quart (capacity is 2 pints) soon, change out the fluid again next year.



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

Check the oil regularly. It's SOP. nt, posted on September 20, 2023 at 17:42:01
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 30634
Joined: July 14, 2017
 nt



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

yup, I learned that with the '06 RAV-4 we used to have (nt), posted on September 20, 2023 at 18:16:18
mhardy6647
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Location: New England
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Contributor
  Since: October 23, 2016
 nt

all the best,
mrh

 

RE: Check the oil regularly. It's SOP. nt, posted on September 20, 2023 at 18:40:22
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 I suspect that unless you have a known leak.....valve /cam cover or oil pan, perhaps,
that you are suffering 'volitility'.....The oil gets hot and the easiest (light ends) part goes out the breather to the intake....Nothing is 'vented' any more to atmosphere....

What is your change interval? Live in a hot place? Run it hard?

We had an '07 Camry, subject to recall after dealer test. They made certain the oil was at the proper level than SEALED the filler and dipstick. They checked the oil in a certain miles driven. OUR Camry was fine, but if it mattered, I always used Mobil1 and a 5000 mile change interval. Car is owned by a friend now and is at around 200,000 miles and still running.

Modern NC Machining produces very good and tight tolerance product. It requires a thinner oil to get INTO some of those places....Additives should take care of 'the rest'.....being maybe 1/4 or perhaps 1/3 of what's 'in the can'.....


Too much is never enough

 

RE: GM and Ford use wet timing and/or oil pump drive belts., posted on September 20, 2023 at 18:56:54
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 I suspect that dexos is a specific ADDITIVE PACKAGE with certain goals.......

Castrol 'EDGE' is supposed to be pretty good stuff.

I'm about to convert FROM Mobil1 They are no longer a real synthetic but rather have gone the way of all other oils (maybe not Amsoil or Royal Purple?) and use Group 3 Base Stocks......
Group 4 is real synthetic. I think the WWII Germans made progress in this field, but am not certain.
PAO is Poly Alpha Olefin. You get this by mixing an Acid and a Solvent or some such dangerous sounding reaction. For example? Mix an Acid and a Base? You get a SALT.....

By REAL, i mean that the gubermint got involved in 'definitions' and synthetic NOW means what amounts to highly processed group 3 base stocks....

Research ongoing, centering on AMSOIL ($$$$$) and Royal Purple (only $$$$). Either will sell a 3-pack of 5 quart bottles......Which will last ME a couple years......
Too much is never enough

 

RE: motor oil standards, posted on September 20, 2023 at 19:04:44
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Here is a brief rundown on dexos, from the Royal Purple website.


Too much is never enough

 

"Swap filters every OTHER change?"..., posted on September 21, 2023 at 00:29:25
dark_dave56
Audiophile

Posts: 8283
Location: Ohio
Joined: August 29, 2019
 ...this is the OPPOSITE philosophy/recommendation that I have received from fleet mechanics that I know. Use a good synthetic oil, and change just the filter every 3-5K miles, top-off/refill with fresh oil, and only do a full oil and filter change at every other interval.

Modern synthetic oils are less prone to break-down, and are far more thermally-stable, but can still get contaminated as filtration performance is reduced. Their philosophy is lose a quart, replace a quart with fresh oil and a new filter, and do a full change at every other interval.

For most vehicles, a quart of fresh oil is a 20-25% replacement of total oil volume (replenishing the additives/detergents/stabilizers), and a fresh filter helps keep it all clean. These are recommendations from guys that maintain taxis, police and EMS, and delivery fleets.

Saves a lot of money too--5 quarts of good synthetic isn't cheap, these days.


"And today is for sale and it's all you can afford. Buy your own admission. The whole things got you bored. Well the Lord chooses the good ones, and the bad ones use the Lord"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP

 

Most newer engines (it seems)..., posted on September 21, 2023 at 00:53:07
dark_dave56
Audiophile

Posts: 8283
Location: Ohio
Joined: August 29, 2019
 ...are far less prone to oil leaks, but higher oil-consumption nonetheless. This can be attributed to lower-resistance piston rings, and excessive heat due to turbocharging. In some cases, manufacturers are even warning consumers that 1 qt per 3000 miles is "normal".

Check your oil folks--even if you don't have a puddle or spots on the garage floor. Modern emissions controls will take care of the "blow-by" and evaporative losses, but you can still run the engine out of oil, if you don't change it or at least check and refill it regularly.

But then again, we are dealing with the general American public--they know where the ignition and fuel-filler door are, and that's about it, in terms of maintenance.


"And today is for sale and it's all you can afford. Buy your own admission. The whole things got you bored. Well the Lord chooses the good ones, and the bad ones use the Lord"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP

 

I'm good with anything SE or better, 20W-50 Manual does say SF is preferred., posted on September 21, 2023 at 01:27:57
kff
Audiophile

Posts: 997
Location: SE PA
Joined: October 19, 2006
 Thing about this today is finding oils with proper ZDDP content.

 

If you change oil every 3K-5K miles and you don't race the car..., posted on September 21, 2023 at 02:55:54
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 30634
Joined: July 14, 2017
 ...you're probably wasting your money on Amsoil, especially if you're using it for the first time in an engine that has a lot of miles on it. I looked into Amsoil, but the reality is that I don't leave any oil in the engine long enough for the additive package to break down.
WalMart carries Royal Purple. It's a possibility, but I'll probably stick with what I've been using for the last couple of decades, namely whatever the government's definition of full synthetic is.
Once the Kendall synthetic blend is gone.



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

Low tension piston rings, direct injection, cylinder de-activation., posted on September 21, 2023 at 03:00:46
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 30634
Joined: July 14, 2017
 All tend to burn oil. It doesn't matter what kind of driving you do, they use oil and it's on the owner to check it regularly and fill when required.
My wife's car has port and direct injection, I check her oil at least once per week.
Well...I check the car's oil...



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

RE: I'm good with anything SE or better, 20W-50 Manual does say SF is preferred., posted on September 21, 2023 at 11:10:59
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 ZDDP? Please expand.......
maybe Zinc and Phosphorus, but what else?
Too much is never enough

 

I use Rotella T6 synth for the motorcycle, posted on September 21, 2023 at 11:24:17
E-Stat
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Posts: 36675
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 since it is also has the Japanese motorcycle JASO ratings. Only has 32k miles, but is a 2006 model year and is high performance.

Rotella and ZDDP

Open the zinc pulldown for specifics.

 

My car doesn't require it, but it should benefit by it. nt, posted on September 21, 2023 at 11:48:06
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 30634
Joined: July 14, 2017
 nt



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate needed in older cars designed to use that oil , posted on September 21, 2023 at 13:26:17
kff
Audiophile

Posts: 997
Location: SE PA
Joined: October 19, 2006
 additive for protection of the valvetrain. It handles the pressure better than other additives or the oil itself.

Being removed from oil due to damaging effects on O2 sensors and catalytic converters.

For the non-chemists/chemical engineers here is the word broken down a bit.

Zinc di-alkyl-di-thio-phosphate

 

RE: Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate needed in older cars designed to use that oil , posted on September 21, 2023 at 14:12:30
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 HEY! That's in my Breakfast Cereal!
Too much is never enough

 

RE: "Swap filters every OTHER change?"..., posted on September 21, 2023 at 14:23:20
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Actually.......I hadn't thought of this approach since th OLD DAYS when you could get an add-on
Toilet Paper filter.....a top-loader. Such media would come out COOKED in about 3000 miles or less and be USELESS in a modern car......I suspect you'd need to change it every 1000 miles or sooner in a modern car running at some ungodly temp....If it didn't just decompose and ruin the engine.

My only ??? is that I see filters rated UP TO 25000 miles. This would be a Fram unit and I think the AMSOIL filter, too......

Best filter media is MICROGLASS, featured in a few filters including the Royal Purple......Which actually IMPROVES in performance as it accumulates a little loading.


ONE other thing? My Mazda filter is TINY. I could pee it full easily. I don't know that swapping and adding 1/3qt of oil would 'get it done'.......

But yes. ADDITIVES are the key to this puzzle. Or one major key, anyway. Maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of every bottle you purchase IS such additiives. My take is that one of the big hazards is called VOLITILITY. this means the light ends evaporate out and leave you with a 'thicker' oil....

And likewise? Some oils are given huge mileage ratings.....MOBIL1 'Extended Performance' has a claim to 20,000 miles.

I HAVE AN IDEA FOR TEST! The ONLY way to test this hypothesis is to run OIL TESTS at every change and keep records and copies of the printout....
you are looking for PH (measure of acidity in oil) and metals (sign of bearing wear, maybe?) and a few other things.....

AMSOIL appears to be a group 4 feedstock which is NOT 'synthetic by definition', unlike nearly ALL other oils billing themselves as Synthetic....and are really group 3 feedstock but highly refined....
Too much is never enough

 

RE: If you change oil every 3K-5K miles and you don't race the car..., posted on September 22, 2023 at 19:31:22
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 I'd recommend you at least LOOK at the Penzoil Ultra Platinum....or whatever.
Made using natural gas originated base stocks, which I suspect means group IV.
This is the real thing and would appear to be fairly priced.

I'd also BET you 20$ cash money, that an oil test done at 5000 miles would be pristine......

You'd recover that 20$ in no time.....and can thank me later......
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Low tension piston rings, direct injection, cylinder de-activation., posted on September 22, 2023 at 19:32:39
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Nice Recovery!
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Most newer engines (it seems)..., posted on September 22, 2023 at 19:35:28
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Hotter engines mean MORE volitility which is the light ends 'boiling' off......
I'd suspect somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 quart of a 5qt fill......
I qt per 3000? Strikes me as a lot....but I'll admit to NOT being current.....
Any blue smoke whatsoever? Even a 'puff' at startup?
Too much is never enough

 

Oil and filters are one of those "religious" contentions in the auto world..., posted on September 23, 2023 at 03:14:20
dark_dave56
Audiophile

Posts: 8283
Location: Ohio
Joined: August 29, 2019
 ...much like cables, DACs, phono pre-amps, and styli/carts, in the audio community.

Any/all of them (oil, filters, and audio components) will "do the job"--it's just a matter of how well, for how long, and how much hype you are willing to believe?

They ALL (oil and filters) have to meet certain MINIMUM specifications/standards for compatibility/performance. Any claims beyond that are up to the marketing dept. and the faithful "followers".

I was an "early-adopter" of Mobil 1 when it first hit the market as the first widely available synthetic--and I was driving a lot of miles on an annual basis. I followed the every-other full-change recommendation, and never had an issue. Now, I won't even buy it--it's not even ranked close to #1 in most ratings, and I don't put that many miles on any specific vehicle, so I just do annually and at the dealership (for warranty and/or documentation). Keeps the new/newer ones under warranty, and the older ones with a fully documented service history.




"And today is for sale and it's all you can afford. Buy your own admission. The whole things got you bored. Well the Lord chooses the good ones, and the bad ones use the Lord"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP

 

RE: Oil and filters are one of those "religious" contentions in the auto world..., posted on September 23, 2023 at 11:48:26
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 One thing to keep in mind.....
Oil formulations and requirements change more often than you'd believe.....
A couple years is 'forever' in the world of oil....

Mobil1 was origianlly a real synthetic....group IV base stocks and all. But after the court decision, was 'dumbed down' to be price competitive with 'other' synthetics....

But yes, many other oils are better or test better or simply ARE better. Not that using Mobil1 and changing properly won't work......It will. My 'Lament with 100k on it is ALL Mobil1.......
But I'm about to make a change.
For the same $$$? THAT'S key......better value / performance....


LINK: To lab results of motor oil tests. Bad News? Information a DECADE old and therefore very old news.....
Too much is never enough

 

That's the inherent "flaw" with long-term testing/studies..., posted on September 24, 2023 at 03:08:24
dark_dave56
Audiophile

Posts: 8283
Location: Ohio
Joined: August 29, 2019
 ...of anything. It takes a long time to see/analyze the results. The "next best thing" is already under development--whether it be a pharmaceutical, medical device, or procedure, a new technology (in any field), a new motor oil formulation, safety device, better mouse-trap/widget, whatever...

I'd venture to say that 90%+ of all new products/technology that hits the market are already a decade out of date by the time they hit the market.

Then comes the "real world" testing of use, mis-use, and abuse by actual consumers. That takes at least another decade to get results.

I'm not advocating that any hair-brained/off-the-wall, product, technology, or procedure should be allowed on the market without some level of evaluation, but the current paradigm is horribly inefficient and expensive.


"And today is for sale and it's all you can afford. Buy your own admission. The whole things got you bored. Well the Lord chooses the good ones, and the bad ones use the Lord"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP

 

RE: That's the inherent "flaw" with long-term testing/studies..., posted on September 24, 2023 at 10:16:31
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 you know?
I'm NOT going to beef even a Little.
Stuff which is obvious today had a 'learning curve' and even resistence to being accepted.

And to ask kind of a related question? Who KNOWS what the next generation of motor oils and filters may bring?
Hell, right now, you can get a very fine 'bypass' filter from AMSOIL installed by you and your plumbing guru. The numbers look good, but does it really help?

Link to systems for BIG diesel and commercial applications.....
Too much is never enough

 

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