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Time for profits to trickle-down to Wall Street?

76.112.185.250

Posted on September 15, 2023 at 04:29:46
Jay Buridan
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UAW strikes Wayne's Ford Bronco, Toledo's Jeep and Missouri's GM truck plants

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

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DOW closed at 34,907 and change yesterday..., posted on September 15, 2023 at 06:04:26
Ivan303
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Somebody is doing OK.





 

Good news for, posted on September 15, 2023 at 06:20:14
E-Stat
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the robotics industry.

 

RE: Good news for, posted on September 15, 2023 at 07:10:21
Sondek
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Do robots buy cars and trucks?

 

They build them! , posted on September 15, 2023 at 07:19:10
E-Stat
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The UAW is accelerating the kind of change similar to what increasing minimum wage did.

Good luck getting Detroit to *begin* a defined-benefit pension plan.

 

RE: They build them! , posted on September 15, 2023 at 08:04:56
regmac
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According to the AP, the UAW is demanding a 36 percent wage increase for workers over the next 48 months. Moreover, it is insisting on the restoration of cost-of-living pay raises that were abandoned in 2007, a 32-hour work week with 40 hours of pay, the restoration of defined-benefit pensions for new hires who now receive 401(k)-style retirement plans, as well as boosting pensions for retirees.

And of course auto workers are miffed over President Biden's infatuation with electric vehicles, a transition that will result in fewer auto worker jobs when fully implemented. Apparently EVs require fewer workers to construct, and the batteries can be made in (Horrors!) non-union factories.

 

Pension Plans, posted on September 15, 2023 at 08:27:54
Inmate51
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Paying people, and giving them health insurance benefits for doing NOTHING doesn't make any sense. And there's no guarantee that the plan won't go belly up sometime in the future, as we've all seen time and time again.

Let's do a think-back: Wasn't it GM and Chrysler that got government (taxpayer) bailouts? That was one of the many dumbest things our Federal government has done in recent years. The void created by GM and Chrysler could have been filled by Ford, Honda, KIA, Nissan, Toyota, Volkswagen, ... or a company takeover. In other words, if there was a market for 'X number' of vehicles, some company would build them.

Ford didn't take the bailout money, but it HAS received multi-billion dollar low-interest loans from the taxpayers:

https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/regulation/ford-receives-a-sweet-deal-from-biden-to-build-3-battery-factories/

Back to union demands: A person making in the range of $60,000 a year, plus benefits and bonuses, to put parts on a vehicle is doing pretty well. As far as 'not keeping up with inflation', well, they can chalk inflation up to 'Bidenomics' (a term invented by the Biden administration).

*********

We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.

 

It's gonna' be fascinating to observe the struggle, posted on September 15, 2023 at 09:53:28
Jay Buridan
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If there's one thing that MAGA and U.S. industrial workers have in common, it's their opposition to the neo-liberalism that destroyed decent wages. In the eternal class warfare, they now find themselves on the same side of the struggle. The MAGAs just have their assault rifles pointed in the wrong direction. If they get woke to their own best economic interests, I probably will start liking the militias.

P.S. Per Adam Smith, if each person looks to their own enlightened self-interest, an Invisible Hand then brings about the best outcome for society. So, elites better hope that MAGA doesn't get woke to Economics 101.

P.P.S. Per Hegel, History works in surprising ways.



"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

No, but Detroit is ground zero for robotics design and manufacturing, posted on September 15, 2023 at 10:02:12
Jay Buridan
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A little strategically applied cyber warfare is capable of disabling an awful lot of robots. So, robots can stage sit-down strikes.

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

You may be misinterpreting the historical moment, posted on September 15, 2023 at 10:09:32
Jay Buridan
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The hegemony of U.S. elites may be less secure than you think.

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

According to the book "All Corvettes Are Red...", posted on September 15, 2023 at 10:10:47
ghost of olddude55
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Roger Smith spent more money automating GM's plants than it would have cost to buy Toyota.
When the plants started up, the robots on the paint line painted each other. Robots on the body line welded doors shut.
If you've ever watched any of Discovery Channel's How It's Made, the most important jobs in auto assembly are performed by machines. Humans just place the parts where the machines need them to be.
Even Rolls Royce uses robots on the paint line and machines to select and cut the Connolly hides for the leather interiors.



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

Automation has been a changing force since the Industrial Revolution, posted on September 15, 2023 at 10:10:58
E-Stat
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UAW is moving to expedite the inevitable. And will likely not be happy in the end.


 

Agreed, automation isn't new, posted on September 15, 2023 at 10:33:59
Jay Buridan
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IMHO, however, WHAT IS NEW is the anti-liberal or anti-elite political climate. The militant MAGA forces that Orange Julius unleashed and the new labor militancy are perfectly aligned, in perfect agreement about how elites boned U.S. wage workers. This is how history works all by itself. A thing turns into its opposite. The snake bites its own tail.

On the other hand, you may be correct. IMHO you shouldn't be overly gleeful about the misfortunes of American wage workers the next time you review your finances.

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

Change is occuring at an exponential rate, posted on September 15, 2023 at 11:52:28
E-Stat
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All workers, be they blue or white collar, need to evaluate their ability to provide long term value not found elsewhere.

What the UAW should be doing is providing members the ability to learn the skills for programming and maintaining the ever increasing robot fleet. Just as those who previously built horse and buggy related goods needed to shift their skill set to the needs of automobile manufacturing.

 

$60K ?, posted on September 15, 2023 at 12:44:07
reelsmith.
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Those who started after 2017 are making up to $17/hr.

That's $35K annually, and quite a bit less actually in their paychecks.

I agree, the pension ask is stupid, but give folks a real wage.

Dean.




reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

Indeed, posted on September 15, 2023 at 13:09:03
Victor Khomenko
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We had a Chrysler plant here and a guy we knew worked there... that was at least ten years ago and he worked on a conveyor, adding some parts, bringing home $100K at least by the time it was all counted.


 

Tesla has no union. nt, posted on September 15, 2023 at 13:10:25
Victor Khomenko
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.


 

RE: $60K ?, posted on September 15, 2023 at 13:13:00
Inmate51
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Posts: 1676
Location: Dallas, TX
Joined: August 12, 2022
That's what I've read from multiple sources. You might want to double-check your $17/hour wage. I've read that that is for temporary workers (it's in one of the sources I've referenced). There are more - just google "uaw average worker pay" or similar.

And that's just 'pay', not including bonuses or benefits.

Sorry about no links. I don't know how to do multiple links in a post. So, just highlight one, and right-click, and 'open in new window'... or some such.

I would expect that the union member who works in the cafeteria or sweeps the floor or takes out the trash is making less than the line workers and other positions. It would be interesting to see how that whole pay scale is set up (they are public companies, so the pay scale is probably available - somewhere).

Edit: Oops, forgot to include the URLs!:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/stake-13000-workers-strike-major-us-auto-makers-103213718

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-much-do-uaw-workers-make/

https://www.necn.com/news/national-international/what-do-auto-workers-want-and-how-will-the-uaw-strike-impact-car-prices/3049364/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/09/15/uaw-strike-average-workers-wages/

*********

We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.

 

That's where community colleges come in (at least in Michigan), posted on September 15, 2023 at 13:29:37
Jay Buridan
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Undercompensated industrial workers are taught by underpaid, undereducated adjunct teachers. Often companies pay their tuition.

The UAW will be OK now that the crooks have been overthrown. IMHO it's a most positive development. Perhaps the U.S. will move in the direction of the Rhenish model of social capitalism and away from trickle-down neo-liberalism. Do you favor neo-liberalism?

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

Definitely not in favor, posted on September 15, 2023 at 13:36:54
E-Stat
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of nationalizing industries. All that serves to do is add unnecessary expense and diminish quality at the same time.

 

Did you read your links ? ..., posted on September 15, 2023 at 14:34:35
reelsmith.
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From your CBS link ...

Top-tier workers - meaning anyone who joined the company in 2007 or earlier - make roughly $33 an hour on average, contract summaries for the Big Three show. Those hired after 2007 are part of the lower tier and earn up to $17 an hour based on a buildup of 6% annual raises under the last contract.

$35K + bonus + benefits = not enough ...unless living in a home with at least one other making the same.

Dean.




reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

RE: Did you read your links ? ..., posted on September 15, 2023 at 16:47:37
Inmate51
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I was looking for a specific piece of information - the average wage of a UAW worker, and found varying answers. $28/hr to $32/hr. was the general ballpark, equating to about $58,000 to about $66,000 based on 40 hours per week, 52 weeks per year (assuming paid vacation), plus benefits and bonuses.

From the link:

"On average, U.S. autoworkers on manufacturing production lines earned about $28 an hour in August"
*********

We are inclusive and diverse, but dissent will not be tolerated.

 

AFAIK In Rhenish Model nothing is nationalized, posted on September 15, 2023 at 16:59:06
Jay Buridan
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But it's not pure cannibalism either.

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

Lower-tier is for kids living in mom's basement, posted on September 15, 2023 at 17:04:54
Jay Buridan
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SNAP for the babies. Grandma daycare. Basically third-world conditions.

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

IMHO start taxing churches and don't tax wage workers, posted on September 15, 2023 at 17:59:17
Jay Buridan
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In lieu of increased wages, just don't tax wages. To make it revenue neutral, tax the fat cats who own everything. Tax Musk, Orange Julius, etc.

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

They can keep their far higher tax burden -nt, posted on September 15, 2023 at 18:03:19
E-Stat
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RE: Good news for, posted on September 15, 2023 at 18:24:34
ChesshireCat
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tells me what little you understand about robotics. You did away with the machine operator, but added a whole hot of folks to keep them running. I built robotic cells for a living, and almost always ended up with more people on the job line. Plus it's against the law to run a machine unattended (Federal Law).

I once built the world's largest robotic cell to eliminate three jobs. In the end we kept them as a robot can't do everything, and added four more jobs. Two were making much more money. Plus another tooling engineer just to stay on top of it. The cell never paid for itself in cost savings, but did give us two more parts every eight hours. I've done others that also did away with jobs (so it looked), but in the end didn't do shit. Best ones I did were robotic measuring cells that fed numbers to machines being run by humans

Management will not run the robotic cells! If you don't know what you're doing it will kill fast and swiftly. They are not to be taken lightly like you speak. Just the programming alone will kill you if you don't understand the game. Wreck one, and you've instantly spent a hundred grand, and there's nobody to fix it. CNC machines is their best bet, and they'll crash them left and right at a hundred grand a clip.

Gary

 

RE: Tesla has no union. nt, posted on September 15, 2023 at 20:07:29
Uncle Mike
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Like you, Musk is a scab, shoots off his mouth and proud of it.

 

Nah , they just print little bit more and shower the crowd with scraps , posted on September 15, 2023 at 20:10:44
Wojciech
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and since the general public is ready to kill each other over a free hot-dog it will do. There will be no revolution of any kind here unless zombie apocalypse happens.

 

Average ..., posted on September 16, 2023 at 07:20:42
reelsmith.
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Top-tier workers - meaning anyone who joined the company in 2007 or earlier - make roughly $33 an hour on average, contract summaries for the Big Three show. Those hired after 2007 are part of the lower tier and earn up to $17 an hour based on a buildup of 6% annual raises under the last contract.

On average, U.S. autoworkers on manufacturing production lines earned about $28 an hour in August

If some make $33 and the average is $28, that means a whole lot of UAW workers make $17 or less.

Dean.


reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

Not a revolution but an inflection point , posted on September 16, 2023 at 07:39:47
Jay Buridan
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Just as trickle-down was an inflection point, the pendulum swings. IMHO MAGA proves that even the most ignorant people aren't totally stupid.

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

Germany is ninth on the HDI, posted on September 16, 2023 at 07:49:45
Jay Buridan
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Its manufactured products are generally superior to ours, but its bosses are paid less. Our CEOS are obscenely overcompensated IMHO.

Americans are sick of the trickle-down scam IMHO.

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

P.S. I would support zero taxation on wage income, posted on September 16, 2023 at 08:02:13
Jay Buridan
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As it is, hourly workers pay a small percentage of income taxes. Why not give them a raise via zero marginal rate below mean per capita income?

Make it revenue neutral by taxing the ruling class?

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

We could increase revenue and put more money in worker's pockets if we were weren't so dumb., posted on September 16, 2023 at 08:18:58
ghost of olddude55
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Get rid of ALL deductions, loopholes, exemptions. Period. Treat all forms of income the same. ALL forms of income. Private equity, capital gains, etc.
Then reduce withholding. If you owe 10% in taxes, 10% is withheld during the year. At the end of the year, you don't even need to file a return.
We could increase marginal rates but cut withholding. People wouldn't get a refund in February but they'd have the money in their pocket all year.
The government could take in enough revenue to pay for the services that the population demands. Few would have to deal with filing the damned return, they'd get a letter from the IRS stating, you owed X, paid X, your refund is zero. If you disagree, call....
But in America, money equals speech. Tax prep companies, and billionaires who made their fortunes thanks to taxpayer dollars, can afford to buy congressmen and you and I can't.
That's why we don't have nice things.



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

IMHO U.S. labor has been unwilling to engage in civil disobedience, posted on September 16, 2023 at 08:53:09
Jay Buridan
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Labor's elected leaders have been co-opted since Taft-Hartley (1947) as none of them want to go back to working on the factory floor, driving a truck, stocking shelves, etc., having tasted the idle lifestyle of ladies who lunch.

Thoreauan civil disobedience would include secondary boycotts and industrial mayhem, such as disabling robots and infrastructure via cyber attack.

P.S. In a strategic blunder circa 1952, the UAW donated WDET FM radio station to Detroit's Wayne State University. The union underestimated the critical importance that radio, TV, and finally social media, would begin to have over propaganda and persuasion. But those were gentler times when few people anticipated how plutocrats would wage brutal class warfare against wage workers beginning in the 1970s with neoliberalism. Today IMHO industrial unions ought to recognize that they need skilled cyber warriors to fight elites bent on destroying labor entirely.

Of course, disabling robots, AI, Wall Street, etc., would be civil disobedience. So, labor needs leaders con huevos grande.



"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

I see the same politicians occupying positions of power for last 50 years , posted on September 16, 2023 at 09:00:13
Wojciech
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With young wolves being added as a meaningless ornament and soon co-opted to an old guard. Nothing will change unless the bottom falls off in some unimaginable disaster. I live in Detroit and feel for workers living on scraps now after decades of prosperity. I'm afraid they will be replaced with cheap foreign work force if needed and that will be the end of it. It's simply not an industrial nation anymore and nobody cares for workforce except for short election period.

 

I'm hoping that the new labor militancy is an inflection point like Solidarity was in Poland, posted on September 16, 2023 at 09:01:46
Jay Buridan
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Of course, it will require civil disobedience which is 70+ years overdue IMHO.

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

All neoliberals, posted on September 16, 2023 at 09:03:11
Jay Buridan
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Swine IMHO.

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

It'll be crushed like always., posted on September 16, 2023 at 14:29:38
ghost of olddude55
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One way or another. If they can't just out and kill workers for standing up for themselves, they'll ship the jobs to other countries.
And when that doesn't work, they'll replace workers with machines. Or with children. Yeah, that's a thing again.
Look at the history of the US, every popular movement on behalf of ordinary working Americans has been crushed, even back to colonial days.



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

RE: It'll be crushed like always., posted on September 16, 2023 at 15:45:59
Uncle Mike
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"Or with children. Yeah, that's a thing again."
Huckabee & Arkansas are well on the way.

 

But wait. You haven't heard the best part., posted on September 16, 2023 at 15:52:52
ghost of olddude55
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Or maybe you have. The change in labor laws holds the employers harmless if a child is killed or injured on the job.
Yup. Shielded from liability.
Not just Arkansas either. It's model legislation written by billionaires and the corporations they control, and it's being used in state after state.
It's a shot aimed directly at uppity adult workers who think they've got a little more power since the pandemic.



The blissful counterstroke-a considerable new message.

 

Don't the grieving parents get a toaster oven or concert tickets?, posted on September 16, 2023 at 16:55:12
Jay Buridan
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To compensate for the loss of a tax deduction?

"Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. "
― W.C. Fields

 

RE: DOW closed at 34,907 and change yesterday..., posted on September 17, 2023 at 14:35:51
pictureguy
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Yet with all the inflation and the DOW at least doing 'pretty good'......the Spot Price of SILVER remains pretty low......
You'd think demand and therefore price would be a little higher......even an 80% match to inflation would be an improvement.....
Too much is never enough

 

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