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Now let us look at the real cost of living in the 1950s vs now

174.194.148.240

Posted on June 7, 2021 at 12:20:13
tweaker456
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The theory being that since corporate tax rates were so much higher in the 50s then the cost of living would be much higher also.

Cost of car in the 50s 46% of family income Cost of House 2.2x income


Cost of car 2014 56% of family income Cost of House 5.6 times income


This does not jibe with the theory. Suprise, Suprise, Suprise
Mayberry NC Gomer Pyle Surprise Surprise Surprise 11.75

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please- Mark Twain

 

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Cars to day last multiples of how long they lasted in days of yore plus, posted on June 7, 2021 at 12:34:50
Road Warrior
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much much safer. Not to mention all the goodies included in that purchase price, including, but not limited to, power everthing, great sound systems, a/c, much better gas mileage, and better handling and ride

House prices, sure they're more than 2x as expensive as compared to the 50s but homes are more than 2x larger on average (1,000sf vs +2,500sf), loaded with central A/C and heat, light years better appliances, etc.. Really, there's no comparison.

----------------------

"E Burres Stigano?"


 

And those large, luxurious houses cost a lot in utilities and upkeep. Nt. , posted on June 7, 2021 at 12:43:05
MWE
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Nt.


Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

You beat me to it pointing out the obvious, posted on June 7, 2021 at 12:52:01
E-Stat
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at least to some of us. ;)

 

All true IMO, posted on June 7, 2021 at 12:55:02
grantv
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I do feel housing is out of people's reach nowadays, but then we also want more as you said! A friend's son just bought an older (70's) somewhat fixed up half duplex in our area (lower end of middle in this town), they paid a hair under $700G. That is scary.
Vehicles; Most want bigger, more power, better handling, more toys, safety features, and on.
Housing is similar; I have around 2600 SF, wish I had 4000. 2 bathrooms, wish we had 3 or more. Etc.

 

The one you left out..., posted on June 7, 2021 at 13:27:37
dark_dave56
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...is the cost of higher-education. Along with housing and auto prices, the cost of a degree has gone through the roof. Hence, the reason that student debt is such an issue among those in the 20-40 age-bracket. Not only is home ownership nearly unattainable for most (in it's own right), it is far more difficult when saddled with a huge student debt burden.


"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP

 

That's pretty simplistic., posted on June 7, 2021 at 13:29:43
ghost of olddude55
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What's actually happening is that wages aren't keeping up with inflation. In the 1950s, 35% of the US workforce was represented by organized labor; today that figure is about 10%.
But...as much as I like to bitch about modern cars, I paid $6500 for a brand new Honda Civic GL in 1982. That's about $18,000 of today's dollars. Neither AC nor a radio were standard equipment and I didn't buy the car with either (and never installed a radio, in fact).
I think the Hyundai Venue starts at about $18K today. Has AC and infotainment, and an automatic transmission as standard equip. The Hyundai Accent, which the Venue is based on, is less money. I'm pretty sure the Nissan Versa lists for less than $18K as well.
The Chevy Spark is about $14K with a stick shift.
IIRC, housing isn't considered in the CPI calculation.
The problem, as I see it, isn't that people can't afford new cars, more like they're willing to accept a much greater financial burden in order to buy more car than they need.
BTW, item today at The Truth About Cars states that, according to CarGurus.com, used car prices increased by 30% over the last year.

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

RE: Now let us look at the real cost of living in the 1950s vs now, posted on June 7, 2021 at 13:32:07
Inmate51
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"The theory being"

Red flag right there.


****

We are inclusive and diverse. But dissent will not be tolerated.

 

To the extent we have upkeep, paid for with 2021 dollars. Have you replaced plumbing , posted on June 7, 2021 at 13:53:38
Road Warrior
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or electrical in a 1950 home? Installed central a/c and heat? Removed asbestos? Our little window units on our home built in 1949 that I was raised in broke ALL THE TIME. At $300-$400 a pop, in the late '50s, that was a big fn hit when you were making $3,000 a year. One more thing, the comparison used ~ $300k house for 2014. That's far from being a glamorous house in most areas.
----------------------

"E Burres Stigano?"


 

30% seems a bit on the high side..., posted on June 7, 2021 at 14:04:29
dark_dave56
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...the piece that I saw on the news this morning gave a number of ~16% over this same time last year--that I tend to believe.

Sure, cars are loaded with standard features vs what they were years ago, but isn't all this "tech" supposed to get cheaper as time goes by? And if you put a given feature on every vehicle produced, rather than only as an option, doesn't production costs go down?


"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP

 

Got a feeling the tech would get cheaper..., posted on June 7, 2021 at 14:26:14
ghost of olddude55
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if enough people start refusing to pay $35k for a Buick Encore, or $30K for a Ford Escape.
Or $40K for a Toyota RAV4.
Or $35K for a Nissan Rogue with FWD. That's how much the mid-level trimmed Rogue costs without AWD.
You get the picture. As long as the rubes keep ponying up more money over longer repayment periods, that tech is only going to get more expensive.
First year Venues, base model had a 6-speed manual. Too bad Hyundai no longer offers it. Their CVT is better than Nissan's, but it's still a CVT.
I could accept the loss of fun, it's the lack of longevity and the expense of repair that scares me off.


The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

RE: Got a feeling the tech would get cheaper..., posted on June 7, 2021 at 14:58:00
E-Stat
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Or $40K for a Toyota RAV4.

Given they sell >400,000 units per year, that seems unlikely.

Just buy a 1962 Rambler and restore it!

 

"family income...", posted on June 7, 2021 at 14:58:12
Waxxy
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In the 1950's most family income would have been provided by a single bread winner. In 2014, the family income would almost certainly be brought in by two individuals. That changes the math significantly!

 

RE: "family income...", posted on June 7, 2021 at 15:12:55
dark_dave56
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The math may change, but not necessarily the outcome. I know plenty of two-income families that end-up spending the bulk of the second income on child-care and "compensatory expenditures". What I mean by that is in compensation (guilt) for not spending time with their kids, they either buy the kids whatever they want, or just hand them cash and send them off with their friends.

In reality, everyone would be better-off if one parent just stayed home and actually played the role of a parent.


"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP

 

Cars cost twice as much these days...., posted on June 7, 2021 at 15:17:39
Rod M
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A 1955 Chevy Bel Air cost between $1,500-$1,800.

A new 2021 Chevy Impala is about $33,000 for the typical package.

$1,800 in 1955 is worth $17,936.46 today.

Your statistic is completely meaningless especially for houses. What's the cost of a 1,500 sq ft house in Iowa versus Palo Alto?

-Rod

 

A former neighbor bought a '62 Rambler..., posted on June 7, 2021 at 15:19:00
ghost of olddude55
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with the intention of restoring it, but when he put it up on jackstands the body structure started to collapse. Those old Ramblers were unitized.
The engine and brakes were locked up anyway.
This is the car. Not sure if it's a '62.




The RAV4 used to be a decent vehicle. The current iteration is cheaply made, ugly beyond belief, and ridiculously overpriced. I know, I know...it sells 400K units per year. So did the Ford Pinto.
When I think of eyesores like the RAV4 and the CRV, I'm reminded of a story, probably anecdotal, Frank Lloyd Wright was in France were he was told that the French didn't approve of his designs.
Wright replied to the effect that the French didn't know their heads from a hole in the ground.
The indignant reply was, "Can 50 million Frenchmen be wrong?" Wright's response? "50 million Frenchmen can't be anything BUT wrong!"

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

A fully loaded '55 Bel Air 4-door sedan was about $2400, posted on June 7, 2021 at 15:23:01
ghost of olddude55
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That's $23,000 in today's dollars. You'd have to use the fully optioned price, since AC, power steering, power brakes, power windows, and automatic transmission is pretty much standard across the board.
There is no 2021 Impala, GM killed it off last year.

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

RE: Cars cost twice as much these days...., posted on June 7, 2021 at 15:39:28
tweaker456
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If you are talking about my statistic you are making my point. Even with much lower taxes on corporations the real price for the car has gone up in your example from $17936.46 to $33,000. Thanks


Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please- Mark Twain

 

RE: A former neighbor bought a '62 Rambler..., posted on June 7, 2021 at 15:55:45
E-Stat
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I know, I know...it sells 400K units per year. So did the Ford Pinto.

For $2k.

Don't get why you're so concerned what cars folks choose for themselves.

 

RE: "family income...", posted on June 7, 2021 at 15:58:21
tweaker456
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+1 Waxxy


Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please- Mark Twain

 

Because their choice takes away my choice., posted on June 7, 2021 at 16:17:30
ghost of olddude55
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Affordable small sedans and hatchbacks are going, going...
And it's all because people will shell out $40K for the RAV4 (and others like it).

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

Ok, posted on June 7, 2021 at 16:32:49
E-Stat
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Sorry to say I'm with that trend. At 64.

Wifey and I each have a two seat convertible and use the Honda truck when we need to haul people and/or stuff. In all weather.

My last sedan was an '04 Acura TL with 6-speed manual and A-Spec suspension. Which I found to be an incredible car for the 100k miles I put on it before needing to give it away.

Today I just like having multiple choices to best fit a need.

And enjoy riding the ST in nice weather. :)

 

And..., posted on June 7, 2021 at 16:43:15
E-Stat
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You'd have to use the fully optioned price...

it wouldn't begin to possess the depth of creature comforts, useful bits like ABS, GPS, TPM, DTE, heated seats, backup cameras, subscription and locally stored music NOR even remotely approach the level of performance of current models in every respect.

Not to mention myriad additional safety features.

 

You can buy one in St. Louis..., posted on June 7, 2021 at 17:56:18
Rod M
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I guess they didn't get the memo.

-Rod

 

Such a complicated subject area and maybe too much simplification to make any point, posted on June 7, 2021 at 18:14:40
JDK
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50's America was working its way out of the Great Depression and WW2.
Like Australia, there was a general frugality, carried over from the pre-war depression and WW2 rationing.
There was a huge reluctance to go into debt - except for housing and maybe cars.
No credit cards.
So while living was quite frugal by todays standards, household debt was next to zero - which is definitely not our standard today.

OTOH, poverty in America was well over 25% in the 50's. Lowered rapidly in the 60's and 70's, but had been on an upward creep since - except for the over 65's who have set themselves up nicely in the zero debt generation ..........

But working out if corporate taxation rates made any of this happen is rather simplistic.

The rise and rise of materialism/consumerism and the idea that workers get chained to the debt machine are, I would think, more pertinent.



Keep Your Hands Clean,
John K

 

You ignore the fact that the increased (real) price, posted on June 7, 2021 at 18:23:45
Road Warrior
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gets you safety features UNHEARD of in 1950. It gets you reliability unknown in those times. It gets much better gas mileage. How long did tires last in 1950? I know in 1965 they lasted maybe 20k miles. 40k minimum now. Ditto brakes. Points and plugs? Things of the past. Pollution? Orders of magnitude lower. No A/C in that 1950 car. Stereo? power steering? Power brakes? Power windows & locks? Leather? lol. Man, the list is endless for what the extra money is going towards. Our '64 Fairlane, '60 Dodge Dart (pushbutton transmission, lol), our '58 Chevy wagon and whatever we had prior to that, were all poor performing, dismally equipped, breakdown prone, gas guzzling, p.o.s. and they were better than most anything you could buy in 1950.
----------------------

"E Burres Stigano?"


 

RE: Such a complicated subject area and maybe too much simplification to make any point, posted on June 7, 2021 at 19:15:26
pictureguy
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I beleive it may make more sense IF governement spending were factored in.....this fuels inflation as well as decreases the wealth available to those taxed. Less wealth and continued rate of expectation fuels debt. Not to mention certain 'adjustmemts' made, like education (cost rises faster than inflation) as well as medical. Those pirates at the Housing administration? equally guilty.

Today? Gov spends well north of 30,000$ per capita annually. And this is going to go UP substantially due to recent debt increases in the Trillions.....

In 1960? 815$ per capita......That is worth about 7200$ in '2021 dollars'.......So Per capita expenditures have increased OVER 4x in the last 60 years.....

I'll leave it to you to do the math.......
Too much is never enough

 

That trend is certainly noticed..., posted on June 7, 2021 at 19:20:27
E-Stat
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Homes have gone crazy!, posted on June 7, 2021 at 20:01:02
Rod M
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There's a nearby neighborhood built in the late 50s that sold for maybe $15,000, 1,500 sq, 3bd, 2ba. Today, they're going for $700,000 with a new kitchen and bathes.

I couldn't afford to buy my house today.

-Rod

 

Perhaps we need to stop living in the past, posted on June 7, 2021 at 20:07:18
RGA
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and lamenting what it was like 70 years ago. It's a global market.

I liked this bit in The West Wing - Free Trade stops wars and we'll fix the rest later

The reality is that if you want a change of any sort you have to fight for it. The wrong way, IMO, is to try and beg the government to fix the marketplace. Governments are sledgehammers - whenever they enact something it is like parking an Aircraft carrier in a Walmart parking space. An example is the min wage debacle. One size fits all but doesn't fit anyone properly. It will help some - won't help others.

Some things the government can try to do but there isn't an exact science to these things.

Take housing costs. In Vancouver where the vacancy rate is under 2% people are having trouble finding places to live. This is bad for business because if all the employees move away - your company closes.

Foreign investors are buying and flipping homes like the stock market. So entire streets are being purchased by the Chinese. No one is living in the houses. The corner stores all go out of business. The home price goes from $600,000 to $1,500,000. People who live in Vancouver can't afford the houses.

So the government stepped in and added a bunch of rules. 8% yearly tax on the home if it is not rented for at least 6 months during the year. That forces the Chinese buyer to rent out the house or else pay $80,000 a year on the house valued at $1million.

That's a helluva motivator to rent out the house!

There is also a 20% property transfer tax tax on non-citizens so if you buy the $1m home you are paying $200,000 in tax. There is also a high capital gains tax selling within a short period of time. They have also implemented rental increase limits that landlords can put in place.

It makes sense on the one had but it also stops developers. They will build an apartment building but they want to make money. If the rents have to be kept low and foreign investment is nixed then there is no motivation for them to build a new apartment complex. They only do it to make money of course and if you won't let them make money - they'll build somewhere else.

Bill Maher's recent video on higher education is a kick in the pants as well. The prices are high and the education is watered down.

The diploma/degree is often simply a way for HR managers to not get fired. If he hires someone without a degree and the employee is a total boob the HR manager will get flack for hiring the person. If he hires someone with a degree from Harvard he can say "well look this Harvard guy has the ultimate degree - it's not my fault he turned out to be a total boob."

It's ridiculous that in 2021, some universities have the professors phoning students to remind them of their due dates to hand in the essay.

The good HR manager I had at ESCO noted that anyone working there could get a degree in anything and they would pay for the courses and the books. He said the main attraction for employers was not the degree, they would teach you what they wanted you to know. The degree's attraction was that it showed them that you were willing to work hard and put in the time and jump through the hoops for 4 years.

It showed them that you had a high degree of work ethic. Whether you took courses like Contemporary Moral Problems in Philosophy, the History of Buffalo in Canada, the works of Arthur Miller, or Business Mathematics it all requires a lot of work.

So my HR manager at ESCO was willing to hire a person with a degree in anything. It showed you work hard and are willing to push yourself through adversity.

McDonald's is also great on a resume because that shows you are willing to work hard for shitty pay. So their profit eyes light up - hey we can pay this guy less to do more - suckers!!

One piece of advice to Americans who are scared off from the high cost of University is to look at Europe. Some of those countries will take in Americans - the courses are in English and they are FREE even to Americans. Get your degree there for free and come back to the US without being in gobs of debt.

Debt is a killer - it forces you to stay in a job you hate because you basically NEED the job to survive. If you are debt-free the power shifts away from the boss and to yourself.

When I went to South Korea I was something like $50,000 in debt ($90,000 over time with the prime plus 2% loan). So when they screwed me over and lied to me over and over I had to suck it up and take it.

If I flew there today and they tried that I would have told them to get stuffed and walked out the first day.

If you do go to university with the hopes of better-paying jobs you really have to avoid the fields Bill Maher mentions. University is not a trade school or an engineering/IT kind of school.

China is killing the west in mathematics I suspect due to their high levels of rote learning. The West teaches having high self-esteem and never admitting you are wrong and that my opinion is what matters in the face of science or facts. Math takes a lot of work to practice and fight through and keep attempting the concepts. It also requires some strong teachers who can teach multiple versions of solving a math problem.

And since those expert math teachers get paid shit - there are very few to none of them around. Why teach math when you can make 12 times the salary at Boeing or Nasa or someplace?

So you get the PE teacher who took a few math courses and passed (barely) teaching math.

Or you do find someone who may be good at math but has the monotone personality of a refrigerator.

I finally had a good mathematics teacher when I got to University. He was also an actor in a local theatre group and he made math fun and interesting. If I had him in elementary and high school I am pretty sure I would have been a math major and perhaps in a totally different career.

Bill on education https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x5SeXNabd8




 

RE: Such a complicated subject area and maybe too much simplification to make any point, posted on June 7, 2021 at 20:13:22
Rod M
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Spending is out of control. Even with the last tax cuts, revenue stayed up a bit and then has increased. The problem is that government spending increased hugely more than the increased revenue.

Every line item gets yearly increases far more than inflation and none of the line items ever get cut. It's a bureaucracy that once created, never dies.

-Rod

 

"Better never means better for everyone", posted on June 7, 2021 at 20:41:07
Rod M
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>>The wrong way, IMO, is to try and beg the government to fix the marketplace. Governments are sledgehammers....

Too true.

College can be affordable though with Community college and State colleges. Unfortunately, none of my kids could afford my Alma Mater, but none saddled themselves. But, you're right, an English major at Stanford is not likely to generate a huge salary unless you get the Law Degree from it and are ruthless and can afford a $500,000 loan.

-Rod

 

RE: Such a complicated subject area and maybe too much simplification to make any point, posted on June 7, 2021 at 21:48:27
pictureguy
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Certainly, nobody with even an Average Number of Active Brain Cells would disagree.

Now, of course the problem is what to do?

I read an article from the St. Louis Federal Reserve (district) many years ago about government spending.
Either? People 'pull up' and request / require MORE spending
OR
Government pushes DOWN due to more money than they need and trying to figure out what to do with it all.


Too much is never enough

 

One of the things I'm proud of in Scotland, posted on June 8, 2021 at 01:38:33
John_the_Scot
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is that all education, including University, is free to the individual Scot. We all benefit from a better education population.

 

RE: The one you left out..., posted on June 8, 2021 at 04:13:58
Inmate51
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I have to disagree with you on that. It's largely a fallacy that "students are saddled with student debt", designed to push a political agenda to socialize college costs and promote "free" college. College will be FREE when everyone working there works for free. Until then, "free" college doesn't exist and won't exist - the cost will just be spread out among the entire population.

We've put two kids through college, both earned Bachelor degrees in good fields (not "Women's Studies" or "Black History", although I majored in women while in music school, but that's another story) both at great state universities - University of North Texas and Texas A&M.

We currently owe about $30,000 in student debt, which we'll probably pay off in about two or three years. The kids owe nothing, and are gainfully employed. And we're pretty much middle-income middle-class. I've got my Schoeps microphones and Revox tape deck and Canon 70-200mm F4 lens, etc., but I don't have horses and can't board dogs and their trainers.

The second part of the fallacy is that people who study certain professions have to go to school for as much as eight years and therefore are "saddled" with even more debt, such as doctors and lawyers. Yet, who's driving the Mercedes S and the BMW 740 and the Porsche Cayenne? Who's got the 5,000 square foot home? Doctors and lawyers. (Oh, and people in academia and retired university professors.)

How do we reduce the cost of a college education? Glad you asked. Eliminate the extraneous unnecessary "required elective" classes. That alone will reduce a Bachelor degree program to a nominal three years rather than four. Of course, that means less revenue for the university, so, that's the sticky wicket.

****

We are inclusive and diverse. But dissent will not be tolerated.

 

It's a leftover., posted on June 8, 2021 at 04:29:41
ghost of olddude55
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Chrysler sold a 200 in 2020, IIRC they actually sold two of them. The 200 has been OOP since 2017.
GM killed the Impala in 2020. According to Wikipedia, the last Impala left the assembly line on February 27, 2020.
There is no 2021 Impala, so that's a dealer I'd never trust.
That price is made possible by the chip shortage and the pandemic. Otherwise, a leftover Impala probably wouldn't sell for more than $20K.

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

Some of those items, I'd gladly leave off the car., posted on June 8, 2021 at 05:12:56
ghost of olddude55
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TPM, stability control, backup camera. I know, unfortunately, they're Federally mandated, nothing can be done about that. TPM is like low-flow toilets, an idea that sounds good on paper but doesn't actually work all that well in reality. A car that needs a backup camera has a serious design flaw. Stability control ads a layer of electronic complexity for very little gain, if any. Here in the snow belt, stability/traction control is a problem not an asset.
The music thing could be easily and cheaply remedied (easier than with my Cobalt), so it really isn't a factor.
Something else that might surprise you is that '55 Chevy was a lot lighter than you might think, only 100 pounds or so heavier than a Honda Civic.
On the other hand, AC is much more reliable today than it was in 1955. Systems designed before changes under the Clean Air Act of 1990 tended to lose refrigerant after a couple of years. Wife's car is 16 years old, the AC will freeze you out on a hot day and it's never needed even a recharge. Mine doesn't work as well but the car has a black leather interior.
I'll wager anybody that bought a '55 Chevy with AC, the AC wasn't working when they traded it in for a '57.



The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

I wouldn't care one way or the other what people bought., posted on June 8, 2021 at 05:16:36
ghost of olddude55
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If you're stupid enough to shell out $5k more for a Hyundai Venue instead of a Hyundai Accent, even though they're same vehicle, that's on you.
But five years ago, we started thinking maybe it was time to replace my wife's car. It was 11 years old and looking kind of shabby.
The choices were: Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, Toyota Yaris IA, Hyundai Elantra and Accent, Kia Rio, Chevrolet Sonic, Chevrolet Cruze, Ford Fiesta, Ford Focus, Nissan Versa, Mitsubishi Mirage. I nixed the Mirage because I think it's a good $10K car, but not worth $15K.
Five years later, the only cars left are the Accent, Rio, Mirage, and Versa. Hyundai took the Elantra upscale and it's now out of our price range as well.


The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

But..., posted on June 8, 2021 at 05:34:29
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 31560
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Contributor
  Since:
April 5, 2002
...even though they're same vehicle, that's on you.

They're not.

The Venue's interior is marginally larger in every respect and offers more total useful volume.

Venue

Accent

Your response illustrates an observation by srdavis2000. ;)

 

Couldn't disagree more!, posted on June 8, 2021 at 05:38:04
E-Stat
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Joined: May 12, 2000
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April 5, 2002
TPM is like low-flow toilets, an idea that sounds good on paper but doesn't actually work all that well in reality. A car that needs a backup camera has a serious design flaw.

Huh? The TPM on both RL and Boxster have worked perfectly for years. And have been useful for identifying slow leaks.

I thoroughly enjoy having the camera on the pickup which allows me to consistently back up within inches of the bumper.

 

Same engine and drivetrain, same suspension., posted on June 8, 2021 at 05:44:24
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 17426
Joined: July 14, 2017
Same basic structure, and according to savagegeese, less usable space than the Accent hatchback it replaced (and costs a lot more than).
The main difference is that it looks like an SUV. It's not available with AWD at any trim level, but it looks the part.
savagegeese had a positive review of the Venue, other than the issues with usable space. They like Hyundai's CVT and complemented the Venue's road manners.
But me, I'd have bought the Accent Hatchback, and that's the one my wife would have wanted, too. Sadly, it's no longer with us. Kia still makes a Rio hatch for now, but the Rio is more expensive than the Accent and in this case, it's exactly the same car. It's just a badge engineered Accent, there is zero functional or measurable difference.


The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

I know so many people who had nothing but problems with TPM., posted on June 8, 2021 at 05:47:18
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 17426
Joined: July 14, 2017
The worst was a co-worker who curbed a tire in her RAV4. After four trips back to the dealer, the new sensor still couldn't communicate with the car's body control module.
And there are so many cars for sale locally on craigslist with the disclaimer that the tire pressure light won't go out and hasn't for 5 or 7 years...
I'm sure many people never have any issues with the system, but I don't want to be the guy with the tire light that nobody can fix.
I check my tire pressures regularly and I don't need or want TPM.

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

But decidedly different body!, posted on June 8, 2021 at 05:49:11
E-Stat
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Car and Driver was not impressed.

 

Tire light that nobody can fix?, posted on June 8, 2021 at 05:52:00
E-Stat
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C'mon, isn't that a bit melodramatic? One instance and all of them don't work?

With both instances we have, it's not a *light* - rather one of many selectable information modes that provides real time visibility of pressure at all four ends.

 

Toyota dealer couldn't fix it., posted on June 8, 2021 at 05:56:47
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 17426
Joined: July 14, 2017
Four different replacement wheel sensors refused to communicate with the rest of the car. I don't know how it all turned out, retired before they got it resolved.
Like I said, it's an idea that's looks good on paper. Keep those tires filled up, get better gas mileage, tires last longer, etc.
But it's a complex system and the more you overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain.
There's no substitute for checking your own tire pressures.

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

True, but still badge-engineered., posted on June 8, 2021 at 06:02:30
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 17426
Joined: July 14, 2017
I take what C&D says with more than a grain of salt, BTW. Strictly entertainment.
savagegeese gave the Accent a positive review.
My wife wouldn't care one way or the other how the thing drove. I replaced the broken rear springs on her car--broken rear coil springs aren't uncommon, BTW, not something that only happens to Chevys--and she couldn't tell any difference. I thought the improvement was dramatic.
She loves hatchbacks. She's had three cars in her life--a 1986 Dodge Colt, 1995 Dodge Neon, 2005 Chevrolet Cobalt. All had manual transmissions, she learned to drive on a stick and has never owned a car with an automatic.
Her favorite of the three, the car she truly loved, was the Colt. It had a hatchback.

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

"There's no substitute for checking your own tire pressures. ", posted on June 8, 2021 at 06:21:04
E-Stat
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when you don't have TPM!

 

And?, posted on June 8, 2021 at 06:22:14
E-Stat
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Posts: 31560
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  Since:
April 5, 2002
It's got a roomier cabin!

You're such a grumpy old SOB - even if we all still love you. ;)

 

And again..., posted on June 8, 2021 at 06:23:46
dark_dave56
Audiophile

Posts: 3677
Location: Ohio
Joined: August 29, 2019
...I will mention the fact that because you, and your like-minded cronies won't let the moths out of your wallets and buy one, the Rio will be gone soon, as well. It will (like many other cars you like) live-on in other markets, but not North America, because they SELL in those markets. If no one buys them, they WILL go away--sooner, rather than later.

Very few people go out an buy a NEW car because they NEED one. If you actually NEED a replacement car, you are likely looking at used vehicles. People buy NEW vehicles because they WANT one. Manufacturers build what the people want.

I reckon this kind of like the elections. If you don't vote, you can't bitch about the outcome--you didn't participate. If you don't buy a new car (at least every once in a while), you can't bitch about what's left on the market for you to choose from.


"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP

 

It's not a "fallacy"..., posted on June 8, 2021 at 07:00:39
dark_dave56
Audiophile

Posts: 3677
Location: Ohio
Joined: August 29, 2019
...according to Experian, total student loan debt for 2020 exceeded $1.57T--yes TRILLON--an increase of ~$166B over 2019.

How can you say that people are not saddled with student debt?

I'm not an advocate of "free college for everyone"--to start with, not everyone is "college material". Nor am I a fan of "student loan forgiveness"--you borrowed it, you pay it back. Lots of people before you have and/or are still paying.

As a retired university professor/research scientist (at a State university), I can assure you that faculty are not overpaid. There were many years during my career that I made as much (or more) money from independent consulting fees, than my actual salary.

Choosing a major/degree?--that's like every other "bad choice" in life. If you know that your degree will not result in gainful employment, or your field of study has a rather low pay-ceiling, perhaps you shouldn't borrow $50K to get that degree?

Regardless, tuition costs have risen dramatically over the last couple decades (even State schools), and students are saddled with a large debt burden. Where that money is going--IDK.

As for "advanced degrees"--yes, these generally pay-off down the line, but you don't even start to earn shit for money until you are ~30 years-old. My wife and I lived on residency and research associate income for years before we actually got to "cash-in" on our degrees. My younger daughter and her husband (both physicians) earned no more than $60K (each) as residents working around the clock shifts. Once they finally completed their specialties, they are now both making $350-400K(each)--in their first year--both in their early 30's. Had they chosen a different path, they could have had a degree by 21-22 and been on Wall St. making millions by 25, or they could have ended up working at WalMart. They sacrificed, essentially 10 years of "earning potential", to get to where they are--as did I (and my wife).


"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP

 

Been grumpier than usual., posted on June 8, 2021 at 07:01:57
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 17426
Joined: July 14, 2017
Caught a cold last week. 85% recovered but still shaking off a nasty cough. Cutting into my bike time.
And what, the Rio has more interior space than the Accent?

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

Even with., posted on June 8, 2021 at 07:02:34
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 17426
Joined: July 14, 2017
That way, you don't have to rely on the system.

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

Rely?, posted on June 8, 2021 at 07:04:48
E-Stat
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April 5, 2002
I always keep a tire pressure gauge with my air compressor. Have to use it with bike and S2000.

 

How do you know "so many people" who had nothing but problems with TPM?, posted on June 8, 2021 at 07:10:17
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 6454
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
Yet I've never known anyone who had a problem where it wasn't a simple fix... TPM systems are better for most people, because as you have said ad nauseum; most people don't even know how much HP they have. Well, most that don't will also not have a tire pressure gauge they use regularly (or even know how to use). TPM's save mileage, make for easy tire pressure checks, etc.
Back-up cameras... one can easier and more accurately back into a good spot with their vehicle with a back up cam than without. Try one, not a chance you can consistently back in as well without it, that's a fact. Couldn't back in that day? Try backing out when you end up with 2 large vehicles beside you. No cam, just slowly back up hoping nothing comes. Cam; you can at least see surrounding areas. Much safer in any vehicle, nothing to do with any design flaw.
Seriously ghost, your claims are unsubstantiated and tiring.

 

That's too much money just to fulfill a want., posted on June 8, 2021 at 07:14:14
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 17426
Joined: July 14, 2017
When I was in my 20s and making the equivalent of $70K/year as a steelworker, I could trade a car in every couple of years based strictly on want. I was young and foolish.
That's the word for getting rid of something old (and paid for) and replacing it with something new (which has to be financed) just because of want. Foolish.


The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

Got two mobile air pumps., posted on June 8, 2021 at 07:39:28
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 17426
Joined: July 14, 2017
One in the car, one in the house for the bicycles. Can pre-set the inflation pressure. They'll run from house current or car power. Very handy.
And if all else fails, I've also got a regular air compressor and an air chuck.

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

We view it differently (apparently)..., posted on June 8, 2021 at 07:53:17
dark_dave56
Audiophile

Posts: 3677
Location: Ohio
Joined: August 29, 2019
...granted, I have 4 vehicles that are older and out of warranty, but they are "toys" and don't count as daily/necessary transportation. My truck and Suburban were bought new and are still under warranty. The Tesla (that I did buy yesterday), is still under warranty (and extended one, at that).

Buy something new, and it has a full warranty, and even if you have to finance some portion of the purchase, interest rates are stupidly low. I haven't had a car payment since 1990-91, but that's my choice. At least for a few years, you won't be lying in the driveway "fixing" things.

I do have a mortgage on my little estate, but that's because it is basically free. I have the money to pay it off, but it is earning more (invested) than my zero interest loan. Being an historic property, restored and on the registry, the interest and tax breaks essentially pay me to live here. If I paid it off tomorrow, I'd gain nothing.

Couple hundred here and a few bucks there on an older vehicle--you're making a car payment. You just don't know what the bill is going to be this/next month. Sure--insurance is cheap, but so is what the insurance company is going to pay you in the event of a total loss.

I've posted this before--I used to be a "drive it til it drops" guy. Partly out of necessity (couldn't afford a new/used car every couple years), and I could work on them (or knew someone that could). Now, I'm a "drive it til the warranty is running out" guy. So much "dealer-only" crap to even want to deal with it.

You're retired, I'm retired--we're both too old for this shit. Find something you like and buy it. You say this may be your last car--doubtful--neither one of us are all that old. Your kids are doing OK, my girls are doing just fine--enjoy what you worked for.




"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP

 

Along with, posted on June 8, 2021 at 07:58:39
E-Stat
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Posts: 31560
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Contributor
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April 5, 2002
College can be affordable though with Community college and State colleges.

a range of scholarships available.

I have a niece and nephew who are going to UGA with fully paid tuition thanks to lottery proceeds. Wifey and I are working on fully funding a third scholarship at the university where she works.

 

"I haven't had a car payment since 1990-91", posted on June 8, 2021 at 08:07:14
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 17426
Joined: July 14, 2017
See? We think along similar lines.
You aren't financing your cars and that's the big difference between the typical consumer and you. And me.
People sign their lives away--well, 6 or 7 years of their lives--for something they want (because of advertising) rather than something they need.
Believe me, if I could afford to get a primo '55 Chevy, I'd do it. And actually I could afford it. But there's the WAF to deal with.
But I'd never borrow money to get it.

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

RE: "I haven't had a car payment since 1990-91", posted on June 8, 2021 at 08:55:34
Inmate51
Industry Professional

Posts: 14845
Location: Dallas Area
Joined: July 6, 2005
I'm still driving my 1999 Nissan Maxima which I bought new in October of 1998. Leased it for 4 years, bought it on a 4 year loan. Why? 'Cause I love it! Fits me like a glove. Haven't had a car payment since 2006 - fifteen years ago!

Well, that's not entirely true: We made payments on my wife's Nissan Pathfinder until 2009 (four years). She put - are ya ready for this - 350,000 miles on it. It finally blew a gasket (literally) while on a trip in Wisconsin. Limped along (going through about 10 quarts of oil) 'til it finally gave up "the ghost" near Rolla, Missouri, where we lucked into a used (9,000 miless on it) Pathfinder at the local Nissan dealership on the Saturday before New Year's (a few years ago). Whew! That was a close one!

Drove back up there a couple weeks later to pick up the repaired old one, and sold it for $900. So, now we've got a car payment again, for about another year. Still, NOT having a car payment for years was REALLY nice. Looking forward to it again soon.


****

We are inclusive and diverse. But dissent will not be tolerated.

 

OTOH..., posted on June 8, 2021 at 09:08:18
dark_dave56
Audiophile

Posts: 3677
Location: Ohio
Joined: August 29, 2019
...I know a lot of people (not car geeks like us) that subscribe (and I really mean "subscribe") to leasing. They just factor-in that a car/lease payment is part of their monthly bills--just like utilities, taxes, insurance, cable, cell/internet. You just pay the bill every month (for the rest of your life). But they always have a new(er) vehicle that is always under warranty, and when 2-3 years are up, they get another new one.

All they do is put gas in it. Dealer handles routine service and any repairs under warranty. If it is out of commission for a bit, they get a loaner or rental car. And that works for them. It is almost like a long-term rental agreement, and it works for them.

You and I want to "own" something (have residual equity), but vehicles aren't like real-estate. Unless it's something "special" to start with, a 10-15 year-old car cannot be considered an "investment", and you're probably paying more in annual insurance premiums than the "total loss" value of the car, if you figure it out in the end.

It's a matter of choice. If you can accept that a car/lease payment is just a monthly recurring bill, you can always have a new(er) car. If you want to hang-on to something forever, you have to be prepared for any potentially catastrophic failure, at any time. It is what it is.




"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP

 

A lot of my co-workers leased., posted on June 8, 2021 at 09:17:56
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 17426
Joined: July 14, 2017
Including one woman, had a 2009 Chevy Trailblazer with 92K miles on it, paid for. No rust. She asked me, isn't it time I got a new car? I told her she was nuts. With proper maintenance, her Trailblazer would last another 92K miles.
Sure enough, she traded it in that night. On a leased Traverse. Because it had a heated steering wheel and a third row of seats.
She's got two kids. Not having any more.
So, she went from a paid-for car that was perfectly fine to a leased vehicle that she probably already had to turn in by now.
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Especially since she was one of those people who was constantly bitching about the cost of daycare, food, clothes, etc.
It's that mentality that I can't grasp, even though there was a time when my ex-wife and I were guilty, guilty, guilty.

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

My sister's Acura has a backup cam., posted on June 8, 2021 at 09:23:50
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 17426
Joined: July 14, 2017
It's a nuisance. Better to look out the window; better to design vehicles that are easy to see out of. In all directions. Without the huge blind spot to the rear quarters that are a feature of most SUVs.
Friends and co-workers know I'm a car geek. I hear the complaints and get the questions. That's how I know so many people with TPM issues.
So, we try to force people to keep their tires at the correct pressure. What's next? Gonna force them to get regular oil changes? Coolant flush?
People will drive around with bad brakes, worn suspension components like ball joints, tie rod ends, bushings, all much worse than tire pressure.
I take care of regular maintenance and also preventative maintenance. Why should I pay because other people don't give a damn?

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

You're the one that posted about "ergonomics" a while back..., posted on June 8, 2021 at 09:27:20
dark_dave56
Audiophile

Posts: 3677
Location: Ohio
Joined: August 29, 2019
...this Tesla is less than user-friendly. My buddy (that I bought it from), ran me through all the "basics" last night, and I have yet to read the full manual (200+ pgs of misinformation) and the file-folder for all of the software upgrades. NONE--NONE of the controls are where your hand would "normally" fall when you reach for them--and EVERYTHING is on a touch-screen.

Oh well, the charger is installed and working, a good time was had by all (and everyone stayed here last night). My audio room got called "Stonehenge"--so I had to play it. I have Infinity IRS-Vs, Tekton DIs and a pair of Maggie 3.6Rs--that I just finished restoring, so they're kind of right.

Gonna go through the manual on a few things and then go out and play later this evening--I gotta see this display/controls after dark.


"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP

 

One thing about my POS Chevy..., posted on June 8, 2021 at 09:51:31
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 17426
Joined: July 14, 2017
The interior materials are cheap and everything snaps together like it was made by Little Tykes, but the ergonomics are solid. Everything is where you expect it to be.

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

Wow, just wow., posted on June 8, 2021 at 09:53:47
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 6454
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
Don't answer any direct questions like usual; backing out between 2 large vehicles, no reply on cam vs. no cam? Impossible for anyone to do it as safely as with one.
Neither my wife's nor my SUV have huge blind spots any more than an old Chevy 2 door with a rear hatch let's say. And it doesn't matter if it did, use the back up cam. :) They are not a catch all, but much safer, save lives.
Friends and co-workers also come to me for car questions. I went to school for auto mechanics, have worked on cars my whole life and still do. Yet magically... none of my friends have non-solvable TPM issues.
Ad nauseum ghost.

 

I've done just fine for 50 years with no cam., posted on June 8, 2021 at 10:11:14
ghost of olddude55
Audiophile

Posts: 17426
Joined: July 14, 2017
The cam in my sister's Acura sounds the alert when there's nothing behind the car. Even she complains about it. It's done it when I've driven it, done when she's driven it.
But even worse than the camera is the electric parking brake. Talk about an answer to a question nobody asked.
Guess your friends are lucky with TPM. I don't want to be one of the unlucky ones. I take car of my cars and shouldn't be penalized because other people don't.
Check out used cars on your local CL, you'll find many with the "tire light won't go out" disclaimer. All brands.
None of these technological marvels are making driving any safer. Traffic fatalities have been steadily increasing since 2010, which is the last year you could get a car without stability control.
Pedestrian and cyclist fatalities are way up, largely because of SUVs and trucks. Fatalities spiked last year despite many fewer miles driven. So either they don't work as advertised, or they're making already lazy drivers even lazier, or they're being undone by the SUV.
It's no secret, I think it's all bullshit. TPM is bullshit, stability control is bullshit, backup cameras are for the weak, the SUV is the biggest bullshit of all. Nothing more than a marketing gimmick to fool the gullible into spending more money for an inferior version of something that costs less.



The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

RE: How do you know "so many people" who had nothing but problems with TPM?, posted on June 8, 2021 at 12:32:46
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 445
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
I hear you.

I park at the ice rink every morning. Inevitably I'm surrounded by pick up's (hockey players) and their God knows how long beds, or massive SUV's. I love my camera that let's me back out and alerts me when something is coming THAT I CAN'T SEE no matter how far I crane my neck.

I love my TPM that told me that I was losing pressure for some reason (newish low profile tires that always have the appearance of being fine) and discovering a nail in one just as I was starting out on a 100 mile round trip at 80 mph on the freeway with my daughter in the back seat.

I also love my blind spot warning lights as well. Sometimes cars just sneak in there and ride it for some reason. Now I know there's something there and I can do something about it.

I'm not a car guy, never worked on one, never wanted to. I don't mind paying my mechanic to do it. I have better things to do with my time and enough money to not worry about it.

Old car guys can do it their way, I'll do it mine.

 

RE: Some of those items, I'd gladly leave off the car., posted on June 8, 2021 at 18:42:35
orthophonic
Audiophile

Posts: 785
Location: Central Florida
Joined: January 21, 2003
"I'll wager anybody that bought a '55 Chevy with AC, the AC wasn't working when they traded it in for a '57."

We had a 55 210 with A/C and it never needed any recharge or repairs, parents traded it in 1960 for used 57 210 wagon also with A/C because they wanted a station wagon. It never needed a recharge. Mom crunched it in 1965
and they bought a new leftover Buck Special with A/C that they owned for ten years, then gave it to my sister who had it for five and it never needed a
recharge or A/C repair, would put frost on the vents.

My 72 Buick Centurion never needed a recharge or A/C repair in the 270,000
miles I owned it, never needed anything but gas and lots of it, it was bullet proof.

My current 1996 Impala SS never had a A/C repair or recharge until last year when the compressor went, but after 24 years and 200,000 miles I can't complain.

 

RE: "Better never means better for everyone", posted on June 8, 2021 at 19:17:12
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 13303
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
That's very true. An English Literature degree from Harvard is no different than anywhere else - Shakespeare is Shakespeare.

In Canada some universities specialize in certain things but for general degrees it makes more sense to do these at less expensive schools.

Simon Fraser University is one of the big three in British Columbia. I decided to do a degree but you could do the first 2 years at Douglas College and then transfer up to the university to do the last 2 years. It was much cheaper as the courses were less than half the price at Douglas.

I took Psychology as an elective. Turns out the Douglas College course was taught by the SAME professor at SFU. Same textbook, same course!

So you got an identical education for half price. In the last 2 years, you pay double and you get the better name on the piece of paper.


 

"I couldn't afford to buy my house today"..., posted on June 9, 2021 at 07:39:38
dark_dave56
Audiophile

Posts: 3677
Location: Ohio
Joined: August 29, 2019
...that's not uncommon (depending on the area/market). Worse yet, there are people that can't afford to stay in the homes that they already own.

I have friends in Livingston, MT whose family owned a large ranch for several generations. Livingston was a "blue-collar" RR, mining, and ranching area. Once the Hollywood "elites" got done destroying Aspen, CO, they started buying-up property and building in/around Livingston. Property values and property taxes went through the roof. The "locals"--many of which had been there for multiple generations, couldn't afford to live there anymore. They could "cash-out" and sell the land at a huge windfall, but they couldn't afford to stay there in the life that they knew.


"So I talk to the night, I head for the light, try and hold it on the road. Thank God for the man who put
the white lines on the highway"--a very dear friend for decades Michael Stanley (Gee)--RIP

 

RE: Cars cost twice as much these days...., posted on June 10, 2021 at 15:03:04
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 14614
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
You should FURTHER research how much of that purchase price goes to play EMPLOYEE BENEFITS.
which will INCLUDE medical, retirement, and whatever else....
Too much is never enough

 

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