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Because, SCIENCE!

73.176.229.164

Posted on November 21, 2020 at 08:33:04
The state of South Australia was put on a harsh, leave home only for necessities, don't even walk the dog COVID lockdown - based upon the lies one individual told a contact tracer.

For those of you who can't understand why some people push back, here ya go. They're not 'science deniers', they're skeptical; accustomed to incompetence and agendas.

At least the folks down there realized there was an issue, and corrected it; good for them. In the US current environment, I'm not sure the authorities would admit to it.

 

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Scientific justification of stupid?, posted on November 21, 2020 at 08:44:31
Ivan303
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Didn't realize it needed that. :-)



 

People don't tell the truth, posted on November 21, 2020 at 08:54:42
jedrider
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That could be a scientific observation.

 

RE: are you saying questioning authority is stupid?, posted on November 21, 2020 at 08:58:28
I always thought skepticism and stupidity were usually mutually exclusive.

But that's ok, you can go hang out in the intellectual corner with LBJ and McNamera. ;)

 

RE: you would think so, posted on November 21, 2020 at 09:01:56
but that requires thought. Rare commodity, it seems.

 

RE: are you saying questioning authority is stupid?, posted on November 21, 2020 at 09:14:52
LtMandella
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LOL, platitudes vs. data.

Data wins.

If art interprets our dreams, the computer executes them in the guise of programs!

 

Uh, what does this have to do with other restrictions (USA) that are , posted on November 21, 2020 at 09:18:39
tinear
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in place as a result of mass infections and hospitalizations and death?

Nothing, at all.

 

The thing is, scientists themselves question the science., posted on November 21, 2020 at 09:21:54
ghost of olddude55
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That's the nature of science, otherwise the sun revolving around the earth would still be dogma.
Scientists also question authority. Happens all the time. Has been unfolding in front of our eyes here for the last 9 months.
Throughout history, scientists have often paid with their lives for questioning authority.
Your linked item (I read it) is about how a government reacted to a fabricated story told by a contact tracer. I don't see what it has to do with recommendations by epidemiologists and scientists.

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

Red herring for lunch? The discussion is about the issuance of proven medical , posted on November 21, 2020 at 09:22:38
tinear
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strategies to combat a horrible disease that has ravaged this country for 10 months and that currently is causing more hospitalizations and infections than ever.

Would you go into combat without a helmet, flak vest, and a rifle? "Oh, the army is infringing on key rights!"

 

Oh bullshit., posted on November 21, 2020 at 09:25:40
Rick W
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The majority of the people resisting lockdowns and wearing masks believe the lies right wing media (obviously including "social" media) feeds them. They exhibit zero skepticism when it comes to ingesting nonsense from Trump and even worse sources.

Can you site a similar example of a lockdown caused by a lie where you live? Has it escaped you that the U.S. is in deep shit right now and one of the major reasons is because fools refuse to believe what virtually the entire medical community worldwide tells them? Is that your idea of sensible skepticism?

 

What's going on today is not the 'questioning' of scientific, posted on November 21, 2020 at 09:33:24
Ivan303
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authority, which is a good thing and in fact why we have such things in science as 'peer review' and the requirement of the 'reproduction' of original scientific work.

It's the ATTACKING of this authority, including advocating the beheading of Dr. Fauci, that's the problem.

And for no other reason than that the 'authority' does not align with the politics of a particular group.





 

RE: shit, it's like the '60s never happened in this country, posted on November 21, 2020 at 09:34:58
even when presented with contradictory evidence, the message is still, "obey"

 

RE: shit, it's like the '60s never happened in this country, posted on November 21, 2020 at 09:39:30
LtMandella
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platitudes are not evidence. Data is evidence.



If art interprets our dreams, the computer executes them in the guise of programs!

 

I have to agree with bean about McNamara., posted on November 21, 2020 at 09:43:05
ghost of olddude55
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Data was his god. It only cost, what, about 70,000 American lives and 2 million Vietnamese to prove him and the data wrong, something he never was willing to admit to his dying day.


The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

RE: we don't even try contact tracing here in the deep South. , posted on November 21, 2020 at 09:48:06
dean_martin
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Yay?

 

RE: I have to agree with bean about McNamara., posted on November 21, 2020 at 09:49:15
Bingo! We have a winner!

Give the brilliant young man a Kewpie doll :)

 

RE: *sniff* what's that funny smoke?, posted on November 21, 2020 at 09:52:42
Are all you '60s geezers burning your tie-dies?

Never thought high 'n tight crew cuts would come back, but I guess there's no accounting for fashion.

;)

 

RE: I have to agree with bean about McNamara., posted on November 21, 2020 at 09:56:45
LtMandella
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No question that folks with preconceived notions - or ulterior motives - can and often do cherry pick and/or manipulate representations of data to support preconceived notions, biases, and ulterior motives.

McNamara - may he burn in hell - certainly cherry picked, manipulated representations, and had ulterior motives in his use of data.

On the other hand, use of accurate data to predict infectious disease characteristics has been proven, over and over again, to reliably predict the paths of such diseases.

Rates of infection, mechanisms of infection, mortality, disease characteristics, are accurately measurable. Simple actually. Lot of work sure, but simple mathematics and straightforward medical work.







If art interprets our dreams, the computer executes them in the guise of programs!

 

It was that damned 1958 T-bird., posted on November 21, 2020 at 09:57:09
ghost of olddude55
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People thought MacNamara was nuts to turn the trim little 'bird into a bloated, ugly 4-seater but they overestimated the taste of the American public and the Squarebird was a sales success.
Got Bobby Mac a spot in JFK's cabinet and the rest is sorry history.
X-tons of bombs doesn't not = surrender. Kennedy and LBJ should have looked at the Edsel, not the Thunderbird.
But bean, really...you probably should have chosen a better subject line for your post. It wasn't scientists who over-reacted to a bullshit story, it was elected leaders, who are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Call it wrong, people die, you get blamed. If it all turns out to be crap, you still get blamed.
MacNamara, by the way, wasn't a scientist either. He was an MBA/management type who didn't want to be questioned, which is a characteristic of MBA/management types.

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

RE: It was that damned 1958 T-bird., posted on November 21, 2020 at 09:59:34
immatthewj
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"In Retrospect".


"The disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, and is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside, or almost a cleaning. As you see it gets in the lungs!"

 

Hindsight is 20/20?, posted on November 21, 2020 at 10:04:18
ghost of olddude55
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They were (supposedly) the best and brightest and they were wrong.
There was plenty of information out there, they just didn't want to see it.
Failed to learn from the Korean War, for one thing, or Dien Bien Phu. Still, the only lesson our leaders have taken from the horrendous military adventurism of the post-WWII era is, don't have a draft. Because if anybody's kid can get killed in Iraq, then the general public might sit up and take notice.

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

The data provided to McNamara by top commanders was deliberately wrong., posted on November 21, 2020 at 10:17:18
Rick W
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He mistrusted that "data" but lied to the American public about it, thereby prolonging a war he knew damn well was unwinnable (not to mention the moral question).

What's going on with covid is almost the reverse. Data and advice based on that data provided by the worldwide medical community is basically as accurate and sensible as they can get it, yet way too many fools in and out of government refuse to accept it and act accordingly. The U.S. and many other countries are reaping the cost of that lack of acceptance right now.

 

I think bean's point was that there's nothing wrong with questioning authority., posted on November 21, 2020 at 10:26:16
ghost of olddude55
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Which is true. Willful ignorance is another matter.
The thing about MacNamara is that the principles of the business world can only be applied to winning wars when your opponent is playing the same game, like the second world war. It should have been obvious. It was obvious. It didn't work in Korea. The French tried the same strategy in Vietnam that we did and failed. We had more firepower but that's all.
The generals were only giving Washington the data MacNamara wanted. Body counts, tons of bombs dropped, etc. Those were the metrics that Washington used to measure progress.

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

RE: "should have chosen a better subject line"; why? This place has been damned dull ;), posted on November 21, 2020 at 10:43:45
Shit stirred, deliberately.

Just a bit of poking fun.

 

But you blinded us with science., posted on November 21, 2020 at 10:45:52
ghost of olddude55
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Did my best to get it off on a tangent about the 1958 Thunderbird, too.

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

RE: Because, SCIENCE!, posted on November 21, 2020 at 10:51:39
bullethead
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when everything you say, do, where you go is track and traced already in the US I don't believe that story either.

I lie a lot, especially online to mess with them all. They have no idea who I am or what I am thinking. All on purpose.

 

RE: What? Bad decisions based on deliberate lies? Good thing that never happens anymore. , posted on November 21, 2020 at 10:58:32
z

 

Temple incense... , posted on November 21, 2020 at 11:56:15
vacuous
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.

 

RE: Scientific justification of stupid?, posted on November 21, 2020 at 12:17:57
Inmate51
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Those charts don't tell anyone anything other than aggregate totals. As such, they're nearly useless from a scientific standpoint, and are useless to even a reasonably intelligent layman. They only appeal to the non-thinkers. They're over-simplified to the point where they can make the nearly-useless TV news story, which typically consists of three or four headline sentences, along with some rehashing of past stories (just in case we forgot and need to be reminded), and the reporter's commentary regarding their approval, disapproval or INTERPRETATION of a person's comments. At least on the "major" networks, "news" these days (for at least the past couple of decades, maybe longer) is just plain pathetic, and biased toward one "side" or the other.

Question: WHERE are the new "widespread" cases of the China virus prevalent? WHAT demographics? What locales? Why? I want details! All thinking people want to know. This what is sometimes called "investigative reporting". It's easy to be a "Monday morning quarterback", but where were those people at the moment the decision needed to be made?!

I want USEFUL data!

 

In this case what's your point?, posted on November 21, 2020 at 12:21:57
Rick W
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You are and we should all be skeptical regarding the views/advice of medical experts all over the world who basically say the same things? Their advice should be ignored? They're lying or don't know whereof they speak? You haven't yet seen enough evidence that ignoring their advice results in exactly what they predicted to warrant suspending your skepticism?

You think the authorities in Australia did the wrong thing? They should have waited and possibly exposed many more people to the virus based on the possibility that the guy lied?

Dunno, maybe I'm misinterpreting. But judging from some of your previous posts it doesn't seem like you had much problem suspending skepticism regarding Trump's lies, distortions and obfuscations.

 

Westmoreland told everybody including McNamara we were winning, knowing it was bs., posted on November 21, 2020 at 12:37:20
Rick W
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I'm sure as hell not defending McNamara, who deep down knew it was bullshit too. Just sayin' that in the case of covid medical experts/scientists do have a lotta reliable data. The Australian episode was a bizarre result of a liar providing faulty data to authorities. Hardly the norm or adequate reason to be skeptical about the advice we are getting from medical experts everywhere about precautions we should take regarding covid19. How'd the skepticisism of Upper Midwesterners work out?

 

RE: Because, SCIENCE!, posted on November 21, 2020 at 12:49:21
pictureguy
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I always can depend on ::

'Follow The Money'....

That I found is maybe the most reliable indicator......
Too much is never enough

 

Westmorland was a dolt, but he can't be blamed for what happened in VN., posted on November 21, 2020 at 12:50:43
ghost of olddude55
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The whole operation right from the start, while the French still ran the country, was poison.
Westmorland was interested in body counts because Washington wanted body counts. He didn't have the capability of fighting the kind of war that Hanoi had in mind.
And he was on the wrong side anyway. We were never gonna have to fight them in Peoria.

The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?

 

RE: What's going on today is not the 'questioning' of scientific, posted on November 21, 2020 at 12:51:23
pictureguy
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Tribalism at its finest......


Too much is never enough

 

Robots ... , posted on November 21, 2020 at 13:14:43
bjh
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they don't fall down dead, shoot themselves in the head, follow authorities ,,, need an american to step up and show then how to drop dead giving the finger - freedom!

... how about the orange beast and his hair dyed demon from hell ... is that fcrazy or what ... maybe that stuff is not real, what's real, alive, dead ?


 

Hittin' the sauce a little early today, are we? [nt] ;-), posted on November 21, 2020 at 13:19:49
Chris from Lafayette
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Oh, Rick! I am SO tempted to reply! [nt] ;-), posted on November 21, 2020 at 14:00:35
Chris from Lafayette
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Mission accomplished..., posted on November 21, 2020 at 15:42:26
musetap
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Now throw that spoon away!

And always have a back-up spoon (or three) at hand.

I do love a good shit stirring!

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure


 

Resist, I know you can do it :-) nt, posted on November 21, 2020 at 16:01:29
Rick W
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nt

 

A silly premise in the OP burning up under the scrutiny of skeptics (nt), posted on November 21, 2020 at 16:22:35
Steve O
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In the interests of peace, brotherhood and harmony! [nt] ;-), posted on November 21, 2020 at 16:26:02
Chris from Lafayette
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Better to be safe than sorry, posted on November 21, 2020 at 17:29:14
JDK
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We saw how crazy the virus 2nd wave took off in Melbourne. But, with compulsory mask wearing and strict travel restrictions, the 2nd wave was stopped in about 4 weeks.
South Australia, quite smartly decided that they didn't want to risk hundreds of people dying in retirement homes, and so called for the lock down when the number of new infections was still so low that it could be 100% traced and everybody isolated.
I didn't hear anybody complaining.
Nobody in their right mind world wasn't to be dealing with hundreds of cases!



Keep Your Hands Clean,
John K

 

I feel the ghost of "Outside" coming in, posted on November 21, 2020 at 19:27:28
Bruce from DC
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As the one and only moderator of that den of iniquity (1999-whenever it was banished), I should know!


 

RE: Boo! nt, posted on November 21, 2020 at 20:55:38
Z

 

RE: Those whose Issue pre-occupation is on the edge of Abby Normal , posted on November 21, 2020 at 23:47:51
B. Scarpia
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Should be reminded daily, while on Asylum Vacation, to wear a mask, do what you know is right, abide by the rules which are exigencies of the current crisis, and STFU.

Ab Esse Ad Posse Valet Fellatio

 

Proves two points..., posted on November 22, 2020 at 03:53:37
dark_dave56
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...PEOPLE LIE--and--PEOPLE OVERREACT. I don't have a whole lot of faith in contact-tracing just based on the first point. Besides, it is "after the fact" data anyways. Yes, epidemiologists are interested in "clusters" and "spread", but the data is pretty much irrelevant, at this point.

We're almost a full year into this mess, and we have a pretty good handle on how the virus is spread, yet people continue to refuse to comply with basic safety recommendations--can't fix stupid.


"The phone don't ring, and the sun refused to shine. Never thought I'd have to pay so dearly, for what was already mine, for such a long, long time."--Warren Zevon~"Accidentally Like A Martyr"--1978

 

translation, please! (nt), posted on November 22, 2020 at 09:09:40
Bruce from DC
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Smb rescue this newbie... Needs Central-speak language lessons... (nt), posted on November 22, 2020 at 10:25:21
vacuous
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.

 

RE: Boo! nt, posted on November 22, 2020 at 10:39:48
pictureguy
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I'd modify your tag line to include::
'Follow The Money'.....which is of Primary Importance

If you are curious? A book a had as a college text about 50 years ago is STILL available and being read.........'How To Lie With Statistics'...a necessary first year read for many disciplines which rely on statistics.
Too much is never enough

 

Not going out on a limb here saying that having 19k+ posts disqualifies one from being called, posted on November 22, 2020 at 11:09:47
Road Warrior
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a Newbe. 1,992, on the other hand, may ;>

----------------------

"E Burres Stigano?"


 

Yes, but this former warden & Yankee lawyer is still... , posted on November 22, 2020 at 11:31:03
vacuous
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A newbie in Central. Translate for the guy, will ya? He don't understand Scarpia-speak.

BTW, where is the Archive for the long lost Outside forum? Looked all over AA, couldn't find it.

 

Apart from the Young Frankenstein reference it appears to be a dialect of..., posted on November 22, 2020 at 13:21:09
musetap
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Gibberish.

Might be a regional thing.


"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure


 

RE: Presumably buried in a field, off of a side road near the interstate exit, posted on November 22, 2020 at 13:35:51
to protect the guilty

 

Has one of these haphazardly placed over it..., posted on November 22, 2020 at 13:43:11
musetap
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a
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure


 

RE: Boo! nt, posted on November 22, 2020 at 13:43:34
meh, a lot of people say 'follow the money'. While important, I don't think it needs to be said again. Took me two decades to put a tag line on my posts around here, I want it to be unique.

I think I have seen that book, maybe skimmed it somewhere long ago; I'll add it to my growing stack of books I'll never be able to get to before I die.

 

RE: Boo! nt, posted on November 22, 2020 at 14:10:23
pictureguy
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I've divested myself of a LOT of books.

Right now? I have books on Navigation which need to find a good home.
Bowditch (Nathanial, 'the American Practical Navigator')
And others.

No market for 'em with computerized navigation. I don't know if using a Sextent is a lost art?


Too much is never enough

 

Books, posted on November 22, 2020 at 16:24:27
Inmate51
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There ARE people who love to read such books, partly because they're intellectuals, and partly because they're into navigation and it's history.

So, don't just give them away or throw them away. Put them up for sale. Heck, I've got a bro-IL and a friend who'd both like to read them. I swear, ...

 

I had a link that accessed Outside posts after it was disappeared , posted on November 23, 2020 at 12:11:37
Road Warrior
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Either I lost the link when switching computers several times since Outside's demise or Rod disappeared the ability for us to access those old posts. Probably for the best. That's a past best left forgotten.
----------------------

"E Burres Stigano?"


 

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