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Darwin 1942

75.140.84.148

Posted on March 12, 2017 at 05:38:24
FenderLover
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Tim & others interested in WW2 history.

8^)

 

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RE: Darwin 1942, posted on March 12, 2017 at 07:43:23
MWE
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Yet another place involved in the Japanese spreading themselves too thinly. They thought they could do it all, everywhere. They were wrong, and later called it "Victory disease". Yamamoto was one of the few who saw it coming.

Mark in NC
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They bombed Darwin 42 times, IIRC., posted on March 12, 2017 at 13:45:30
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This raid was carried out by the same Task Force that raided Pearl Harbour, Ceylon, and the Indian coast.

By the time of that first raid, headquarters in Japan and the top commanders at sea and in the field, had already begun cutting back on their plans.

Viz.

Restricting themselves to capturing the whole island of New Guinea, which would have allowed them to interdict supplies from the USA to Australia.

But they failed at that task.

Taking Australia, or at least its North, which had been in their plans, as an 'if necessary,' was by early 1942 dropped, at IJN insistence.

The vast bulk of their army stayed in China and Manchuria until 1945. Where the Russians whipped them, in a few weeks.

They caught 'victory disease' in China, well before WWII began in Europe.

They - their two services commands - didn't know they had the disease - until Midway, after the first raids on Darwin.

But even then the crews returning to Japan, and the soldiers in the Pacific were threatened / cajoled - Kempei Tai? - not to tell their folks back home what had happened at Coral Sea and Midway.

People either don't know, or forget, that two* large carriers went back to Japan as a result of the battle of the Coral Sea, one because its aircrew were dead, the other because it was so badly damaged. That battle was not quite a draw.

Yorktown was patched up in time for Midway.

Several RAN ships were at the Coral Sea battle.

Further? The cryptanalysis that allowed the USN's 3 carriers to ambush the IJN's 4 carriers at Midway (but not 6*)? It was a joint, allied achievement. Australia's Army cryptanalysis team and its RAN spooks played a critical role, along with Friedman's team at Pearl.

I've studied the history of this back in the 1970s, on an army course, to learn the lessons,(procedural, tactical and strategic). And, since as more and more has been revealed. LBNL my FILaw Prof. J.T. Laird was directly involved.



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"Victory disease" in China- too true. Also, imagine if..., posted on March 12, 2017 at 15:28:18
MWE
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...Japan had all six carriers at Midway. Probably would've ended up a draw, at BEST. Maybe a lot worse.

Mark in NC
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All six? Not quite., posted on March 12, 2017 at 16:13:29
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They had just four fleet carriers, because it was only a month or so to repair one and get two sets of air crew. So, Zuikaku and Shokaku were out of service, still.

The IJN's aircrew training program was not up to that kind of speed, nor were it's ship-repair facilities. Aircraft production delays may have been a factor as well

The other two carriers were in the II Carrier Striking Force and were not fleet carriers, the small Hosho and small Zuiho. They did not engage any USN forces during the battle. They were not within range during the crucial day. So, they were never a factor in the battle's outcome.



Another big factor in Coral Sea / Midway was the lack of effective damage control in the IJN's carrier fleet. Victory Disease at its worst.










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Tim Bailey

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Think you misread me- look at title AND text- "If" nt., posted on March 12, 2017 at 16:31:02
MWE
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nt
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IJN = 10 total Aircraft Carriers at start of WW2, posted on March 12, 2017 at 19:47:16
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Seven total US Navy AC carriers at end of 1941.

By the Battle of Okinawa (1945), US had 11 fleet carriers and 22 escort carriers. Plus, 4 British carriers the attack force. For 37 total AC carriers. Crazy demonstration of industrial might.

 photo helldiver11_zpssnt3ytbn.jpg

 

Logistics, posted on March 12, 2017 at 20:04:19
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A big --- and not sexy part --- of winning any war. Japanese had the SW Pacific and Germans had Russia.

Did you read the GREAT US Submariner book by Theodore Roscoe? One of the best books on the strangulation of Japanese supplies by US submariners.

 

Okay, I did misread you. :-), posted on March 12, 2017 at 21:24:14
Timbo in Oz
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What-if discussions about real battles don't interest me much, I find it difficult to take them seriously. Unless they are being used to reinforce useful lessons about actual outcomes.

Otherwise, they smack to me of 'de sowf will rahze aginn' syndrome.

Further, it seem silly to consider Midway in isolation from Coral Sea, which took out two IJN fleet carriers, so that the former battle defined the USN's ability to win Midway. And the timing is so close.

Midway wasn't a draw, it was a shattering defeat for the IJN, and the turning point of the Pacific War.




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Tim Bailey

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RE: IJN = 10 total Aircraft Carriers at start of WW2, posted on March 12, 2017 at 22:09:47
Tweaker456
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I figured out recently that my father was on ship in Okinawa. Not fun. A history of his ship mentioned two missed plane dropped torpedoes which were dead on but missed because they went under the ship. Doesn't seem to make sense to me that the Japanese would be that sloppy? Supposedly certain death for anyone below deck. So thank Japanese incompetence for my many valued contributions to AA folks. T456
"The Borg is the ultimate user. They're unlike any threat your Federation has ever faced."

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Right re: Midway, that being my point., posted on March 12, 2017 at 22:18:46
MWE
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If the IJN had had at Midway the two carriers taken out of operations at Coral Sea, how might things have turned out? Probably no better than a draw or worse. Sorry, I DO like to play "what if?" scenarios, my apologies to anyone who doesn't care for them. Time for me to be done with this, apparently.

Mark in NC
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your point is a 'fantasy' point., posted on March 13, 2017 at 01:57:31
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It didn't happen and after Coral Sea, it couldn't happen.

Do try to get your head around facing up to reality, it might help, and can't hurt in the long term, just like chicken soup.

Denying reality is not a good path.












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Tim Bailey

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Torpedo issues, posted on March 13, 2017 at 06:19:36
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The USN Submariners had a notoriously bad time in the first half of WW2 with "duds." These weapons are extremely complicated and malfunctions plagued not only the IJN and USN, but also the Germans, esp during WW1.

During WW2, German U-boaters disabled the tricky magnetic detonators, in favor of contact fuse. And used contact approach solutions to increase explosion rates.

The whole topic is a very interesting one. Well documented in the attached article.

 

Intelligence and reconnaissance., posted on March 13, 2017 at 06:25:28
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Big roles in this much discussed battle.

 

A bit off topic, posted on March 13, 2017 at 07:28:07
1973shovel
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But still WWII and Japan related.

My older brother gave me our father's Arisaka model 99 rifle last month, since he (my brother) hadn't used it to hunt deer since the late 1960s. It was a spoil my father brought back from the South Pacific in 1945, as did many returning sailors.

This one has the Emperor's chrysanthemum intact, although upon close inspection, it does have a lightly machined X through it. Note that most were ground off, either by Japanese solders prior to capture, or by post-war agreement to allow the Japanese to save a degree of face. It also has the overly optimistic anti-aircraft sights unmolested. The serial number on the bolt matches the rifle, which I'm told is also unusual for a captured weapon.

I took it out a few weeks ago and put five rounds down range. Highly accurate at 100 yards, my friend (who also has an Airsaka from his grandfather) and I commented on how many of our men were taken by these well-crafted weapons. Too many, was the answer.


"Suddenly, I'm not half the man I used to be. 'Cause now I'm an amputee" J. Lennon

 

Sir, what is wrong with you? , posted on March 13, 2017 at 07:33:25
MWE
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You are being awfully bitter and ad hominem. I am truly, truly done with this now.


"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

Great link! The worst part being..., posted on March 13, 2017 at 07:46:30
MWE
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the intransigence of the Navy bureaucracy.

Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

Awesome!, posted on March 13, 2017 at 07:49:30
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You have any photos of this rifle? Long rifle Type 99 variety?

 

RE: Awesome!, posted on March 13, 2017 at 08:14:20
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I don't have any pictures of my particular Arisaka, but below is a Wikipeda link which shows it and goes into detail.

My friend did take a video of me shooing it for the first time since I was about 12, but he hasn't sent it to me yet.

Shooting it was an interesting experience, one which made me feel somehow closer to my old man than in the fifty-five years since he died, in 1962.









"Suddenly, I'm not half the man I used to be. 'Cause now I'm an amputee" J. Lennon

 

Very nice!, posted on March 13, 2017 at 08:23:03
FenderLover
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How hard is it to find Arisaka cartridges?

 

I'm told it's fairly difficult, posted on March 13, 2017 at 08:54:58
1973shovel
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My friend said he has found them once or twice at gun shows, generally paying around $50 US for a box of 20. It's not something I could walk into Cabela's, Bass Pro, or an average gun store and buy.

My brother gave me nearly 60 rounds, so that should last me the rest of my life, if I only continue to shoot a few rounds every few years for sentimental reasons.

I haven't hunted in over thirty years. However, our state's conservation department is practically begging hunters to get out and take wild hog and coyote, both of which are overrunning the state, the hogs causing millions of dollars in crop damage. I might be coaxed out of retirement if I feel I'm doing some good for the environment, in which case this Arisaka may see more use than it has in many years.

As an FYI, I edited my other post to include a different video, one that explains the anti-aircraft sights in greater detail.


"Suddenly, I'm not half the man I used to be. 'Cause now I'm an amputee" J. Lennon

 

Love the AA sight, posted on March 13, 2017 at 09:23:45
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Funny. The Germans never put that sight on their Mauser 98s. And that gun did see action in WW1. With slow WW1 recon planes.

Ever fire one of these German guns? Quite a kick. I've never shot an Arisaka. Friend has several 30-06 Mannlicher Schoenauer 1952, with telescopic sights. That gun has one wicked kick.

 

Admiral Charles Lockwood, posted on March 13, 2017 at 09:32:49
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Single-handedly made the US Submarine Force into the offensive and reconnaissance force it still is today.

Submariners are what they are today, because of a few good folks during the war.

 

"Ever fire one of these German guns?", posted on March 13, 2017 at 10:11:02
1973shovel
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I have not had the pleasure. In that first video I posted, the guy said that because the Arisaka 99 is light, it has quite a bit of felt recoil.

It didn't seem too bad to me when I shot those five rounds a few weeks ago. But then, my standard for recoil is my old Ithaca spring (as opposed to gas) recoil 12 gauge semi-auto, with a hard butt-plate stock, which came with no recoil pad. I've owned the shotgun since I was 15.

My friend shoots a variety of guns (both his, and his friends), often a few times per week. We went out one afternoon and he didn't know it, but I had slugs in the Ithaca (he assumed I was shooting low brass because he had them in his Mossberg). I shot it three or four times and handed it to him. He took one shot, groaned, handed it back, and wouldn't shoot it again.

Not that there aren't harder kicking guns, but so far my Ithaca sets the standard for anything I've shot.


"Suddenly, I'm not half the man I used to be. 'Cause now I'm an amputee" J. Lennon

 

RE: I'm told it's fairly difficult, posted on March 13, 2017 at 13:23:56
Todd A.
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Is that a 7.7 mm round? The website linked below refers to a "7.7 mm Jap", which at $28 for 20 rounds seems a good price, provided it's the round you're looking for,

 

Yes, that's it, posted on March 13, 2017 at 14:26:30
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7.7 mm JAP is the official designation. If they actually have it and sell it for the price they're showing then I'd be able to do more than a few ceremonial shots every few years.

I'm going to contact them and see. Thanks!




"Suddenly, I'm not half the man I used to be. 'Cause now I'm an amputee" J. Lennon

 

RE: I'm told it's fairly difficult, posted on March 13, 2017 at 15:19:23
pictureguy
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I be real careful hunting PIG with this guy.
The 7.7mm (roughly 30 cal) is fairly low speed and depending on bullet weight, maybe not enough delivered energy for a BIG or MEAN pig.

Exterior ballistics similar to a .308 can be achieved thru careful handloading.

Bullet weights from 125 grain UP are available for handloading.

Deer? Forever. I'd give max hunting range at in the 200 yard area. After that, depending on ballistics, you might have lost too much energy.

Bear? I don't think so. Especially if you go up North for Griz or to Alaska for a big Brown.

For 48 state pig? Something with a real whallop is indicated. 7mm mag? 338 Winchester?
Maybe even one of the Weatherby Magnums ($$$$)


Too much is never enough

 

RE: Awesome!, posted on March 13, 2017 at 15:58:34
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My Arisaka is on the left.
Not much left of it .....

How fantastic to have one that still fires!
My old Uncle George had a firing Boer War 303, and a Jungle Carbine.


Cheers,
John K

Photobucket

 

Shotguns, posted on March 13, 2017 at 17:18:05
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Those are different beasts, compared to rifles --- in terms of kick. No?

Do you reload? Maybe cheaper than getting Arisaka ammo, from dealer. That's a great rifle with personal history. Was your Dad in the Marines?

 

Actually there were three different japanese 7.7mm rounds, posted on March 13, 2017 at 17:22:13
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Similar if not matching case dimensions too.

But one was rimmed and matched the .303 British, (used in the cockpit/nose 'vickers' guns of IJN aircraft like the Zero), one was semi-rimmed and one was rimless.

I think the type 99 fired the 7.7mm rimless round.

I think the ballistics of all three were the same, too!

The 99 and its 6.5mm predecessor are accurate rifles, as they are based on a Mauser action. Stock quality and finish tended to be poorer as the war went on.

Imagine the poor Japanese supply guys ???!!! making sure to send the right rounds to the right platoon, company or battalion. Nightmare.



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Tim Bailey

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But he also took a long time to come around to the crews' point of view about the magnetic pistols., posted on March 13, 2017 at 17:28:13
Timbo in Oz
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He was part of the problem for far too long!


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Tim Bailey

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RE: Actually there were three different japanese 7.7mm rounds, posted on March 13, 2017 at 17:33:46
pictureguy
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Yes, the origin of the 7.7x58 is apparently the parent machine gun round.
Not familiar with the rimmed version! What was that used in or for?
And yes, the 303 was probably the 'target' ballistics to match while the entire arms making planet standardized on the 1898 Mauser Action in one form or another. Even the US Springfield Rifle, IIRC.

Several rifles blew up in testers faces but it would appear they were UN hardened drill rifles never meand for a round but a 'blank' of lower pressure.

End of war weapons of this type should not be fired unless FIRST checked by a gunsmith. Hardness of metal should be part of the inspection.

Any way you slice it, this is a medium bore rifle which may not be the best choice for the larger and meaner pigs. Maybe 7mm mag? The heavier bullets, like 165 or 175 grain REALLY pack a lot of energy. Bacon, anyone?
Too much is never enough

 

should not be fired unless FIRST checked by a gunsmith, posted on March 13, 2017 at 18:05:38
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For sure. You ever see or fire a Nambu type 14 pistol? Later war variants had notoriously poor finish and QA. Still, better than the Type 26 revolver. Which, I'm told were even dangerous as unloaded hammers.


8^)

 

Seemed that the Navy hierachy weren't sure about the Sub's..., posted on March 13, 2017 at 18:08:18
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role and effectiveness. There was a fight to keep the service separate, after WW2. A very interesting part of US Navy history.

 

IME as a trained shot and subsequently a trained marksman and marksmanship coach, posted on March 13, 2017 at 18:35:34
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a good firm but calm hold is the only way to absorb the kick, and I'm a little bloke, though I've put on some weight of late ;-)!

The FAL or SLR L1A1 kicked hard if you didn't hold it right. I always used to get a bruised cheek-bone on the range, until I did the course I mentioned. ? When I found out that there were three different butt lengths, and gave me a 'slur' with the one that fit me.

Improved my shooting a lot.

My restocked (to fit me), sporterised and re-barrelled M1917, in .30-06 could kick hard if you didn't hold it firmly. You do NOT want a scoped rifle to kick. This had a quick release mounting and a big wide peep sight for close country shooting.

Pigs and deer? IME you need to be good at shot-placement to take them with a 6mm cartridge, and you should use a heavy-ish bullet.

Any .30 inch Mach2 plus cartridge should be fine. But a .30-06 is way the best.






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Tim Bailey

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AA sights - they provide a bit of lead., posted on March 13, 2017 at 18:42:41
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From 1940 on the Brits came to believe that it was best for troops to shoot back at Stukas et al, rather than cower on the ground.

WWII era dive bombers like Stukas were actually pretty easy targets if you have a good director* feeding the gun. * analogue computer sometimes radar fed.

For good LMG (or GPMG) teams with a tripod, it's not that hard either. Need to not void yourself while shooting though ;-)!!

It's because of the steep, 'straight and slow' dive.


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Tim Bailey

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RE: should not be fired unless FIRST checked by a gunsmith, posted on March 13, 2017 at 22:19:22
pictureguy
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Not a collector and don't know much or anything really, about the 'exotics'.

Late war quality suffered for ALL axis powers. Everything from outrite Sabotage to simpler stuff like poor welds and finish.
This applies across the board from small arms to tanks and aircraft.

I woudn't know a Nambu if it fell out of the sky on me. I'll bet getting ammo is a real treat. And if the round was low-powered, getting it rechambered for something better than 380 auto might even be dangerous.

If I could collect a single piece? Make mine the RARE 45acp Luger. I think they made several for US trials and destroyed one in the process. The remaining samples are VERY valuable.

If I had a collectible-style shooter? A reproduction Sharpes would be neat. In 45-70 smokeless. BOOM!
I'd love to join a gun club and see if I could qualify for a DCM issue M-1 Garand. I'd settle for a good condition shooter and put it over the fireplace.
Too much is never enough

 

303 British, posted on March 14, 2017 at 02:15:53
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I just bought two 303 cleaning brushes for my Arisaka.

I only wish the Japanese supply guys had a more difficult time than they did, Timbo!


"Suddenly, I'm not half the man I used to be. 'Cause now I'm an amputee" J. Lennon

 

I'd be willing to give it a try the Arisaka, posted on March 14, 2017 at 02:29:48
1973shovel
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But I'd keep my .357 on my hip as backup. I've seen some of those youtube hog charge videos, and I can imagine needing to change hunting pants after an experience like that.


"Suddenly, I'm not half the man I used to be. 'Cause now I'm an amputee" J. Lennon

 

I read that about those drill rifles too, posted on March 14, 2017 at 02:38:53
1973shovel
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The thought did cross my mind, just before I pulled the trigger, knowing the gun hadn't been fired in a long time, probably since around 1968, when my brother took a deer with it.

But I did my homework, and knew this 99 was an early model, in part because of the knurled safety on the end of the bolt. As mentioned, I did have my friend video the first shot, just in case it blew up on me. I figured that would make for an interesting video.

Thanks for all the feedback!


"Suddenly, I'm not half the man I used to be. 'Cause now I'm an amputee" J. Lennon

 

Nice picture!, posted on March 14, 2017 at 04:50:25
1973shovel
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I agree, it's nice to have one that fires, and has at least some of the original items intact.

Thanks for that picture. Love it!


"Suddenly, I'm not half the man I used to be. 'Cause now I'm an amputee" J. Lennon

 

I don't reload, posted on March 14, 2017 at 05:07:36
1973shovel
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I am saving the 7.7 brass though, figuring sooner or later I'll find someone who does reload them.

My dad was in the Navy.


"Suddenly, I'm not half the man I used to be. 'Cause now I'm an amputee" J. Lennon

 

RE: should not be fired unless FIRST checked by a gunsmith, posted on March 14, 2017 at 07:13:24
Todd A.
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"A reproduction Sharpes would be neat. In 45-70 smokeless."

A buddy of mine and his wife both shoot an original Sharps chambered in .45-110. Competitions take place at 800 yards, but it's all black powder. He does all of his loading with a drop tube, and FWIW, he says she's better than he is. He's one helluva leather worker, too, as evidenced by the photo. That holster is entirely hand made - one of a kind.

The M1 Garand is a fine firearm, although they're not cheap these days. My understanding from a friend (who's a 30-year retired staff sergeant) is that you have to be somewhat careful about the loads you use in it, though.

 

RE: should not be fired unless FIRST checked by a gunsmith, posted on March 14, 2017 at 11:30:48
pictureguy
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Terrific 'cowboy' leatherwork'. Lots of time involved in something of that quality and look.


I went to the DCM site and WOW. Far MORE money than I remember. And some grades not available any more. I guess I waited about 30 years too long!
Too much is never enough

 

The rimmed version was used by the IJN's copy of the Vickers gun e.g. in the cockpit/nose of Zeros, posted on March 14, 2017 at 14:01:13
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The round is interchangeable with .303 British.


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Tim Bailey

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&.7 x 58s are NOT the same size as 7.7x56 / .303 , posted on March 14, 2017 at 14:30:16
Timbo in Oz
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Very similar but not the same.

The 7.7X58mm were IJA rounds. The 7.7X56 was an IJN copy of the .303.


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Tim Bailey

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RE: &.7 x 58s are NOT the same size as 7.7x56 / .303 , posted on March 14, 2017 at 17:20:53
pictureguy
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Neither of the Japanese rounds a ballistic 'monster'.

And in aircraft use, not even CLOSE to the 50cal browning stuff on US aircraft of the day.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: &.7 x 58s are NOT the same size as 7.7x56 / .303 , posted on March 14, 2017 at 22:32:09
Timbo in Oz
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Bear in mind that the Zero carried a 20mm cannon in each wing. The really weakly armed WWII Japanese fighter was the IJA's Oscar. Initially just2 rifle calibre MGs, and later two relatively week 12.7mm jobs.

The ANM2 .5" Browning HMG was the 2nd best aircraft Heavy MG of WWII. They worked 'well enough' in USN and USAAF fighters. Once they were installed in quantity (6 or 8) and were just effective enough to last out the war. Given the difficulties of the US's 20mm program at the time. Your fighter pilots were lucky. See the table in the article attached.

OTOH in 1940 the RAF's Hurricane MkIs could have carried 4 of them, as Belgium's airforce and Fabrique Nationale did try this out. Too late to matter.

Ballistics became of interest to me after doing my marksmanship and coaching course, and partly because I was still hunting, and planned to start reloading. I found a copy of 'Guns of the RAF' in the local public library.

More recently I came across a site based in the UK, one article of which is right on the money about WWII fighter armament. Click below!

The site has another article on the sorry tale of the USA's WWII attempts to get the Hispano 20mm into service. Mostly due to an ammunition greasing / case sizing issue. The whole site is worth a read.

I bet you'd find it fascinating.


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Tim Bailey

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RE: &.7 x 58s are NOT the same size as 7.7x56 / .303 , posted on March 14, 2017 at 23:40:26
pictureguy
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Interesting table.
I knew about how short the effective range was for aircraft mount MGs. But the Germans did have great luck with the thru-prop-hub 20mm cannon of the '109. Very Destructive.
I know the US P38 had a cannon, having a LOT of room in the nose, but don't know about others so equipped.

When I worked for the county in which I lived, I visited the Ballistics / Crime Lab and they had in their possession, a 20mm AntiTank Rifle of WWII vintage.
I have NO idea what a citizen was doing with THIS particular piece of history. And AMMO!
Too much is never enough

 

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