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Fostex alnico tweeters

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Posted on December 10, 2016 at 05:34:49
Jim D.
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Anyone hear currently using Fostex alnico bullet tweeter on their horn system with success? I'd like to try a tweeter on top of my Edgar/JBL2441 midrange horn. I got rid of the Fanes many years ago and have been tweeterless since. I've been reading old posts about the T900, 925 and 500akm2.

TIA,
Jim

 

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Fane Tweeters aren't THAT bad..., posted on December 10, 2016 at 09:36:27
Ivan303
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Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - San Francisco
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925A looks to be the best balance between performance and cost?

Hard to justify a Kilo-buck of $ for a frequency range I might not be able to hear?



 

RE: Fostex alnico tweeters, posted on December 10, 2016 at 10:24:41
Scott L
Audiophile

Posts: 246
Location: Knoxville
Joined: February 2, 2001
hi Jim,

Here ya go:

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/bullet-tweeters/fostex-t90a-top-mount-horn-super-tweeter/

 

RE: Fostex alnico tweeters, posted on December 10, 2016 at 12:12:08
Don Reid
Audiophile

Posts: 389
Joined: February 2, 2001
I use Fostex t900a bullet tweeters above Oris 150 horns driven by AER MD3 drivers. I have listened to this combo for years and I am still really pleased with the sound. One thing which might make my experience less than universally applicable is that I have always used DSP (DEQX HDP-3) for crossover, speaker correction, room correction, etc., and this might well correct away any anomalies in the Fostex bullets which might otherwise be audible.

 

I like the T90A, FWIW, posted on December 10, 2016 at 17:08:27
mhardy6647
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I've used a pair atop my Duplexes (crossed in very high, first order, and padded down a bit) on and off for a while. Lately, mostly on (although I've been playing with considerably nuttier things).

The T90A is a pretty pleasant-sounding little tweeter.

Not sure how relevant my experience (or my taste, for that matter) is, though.

075
all the best,
mrh

 

RE: Fostex alnico tweeters, posted on December 11, 2016 at 00:22:51
belyin
Audiophile

Posts: 817
Location: New Orleans
Joined: November 1, 2003
Where and how do you mount your tweeters? I have Oris 150 horns, and I like to give them a try.

 

RE: Fostex alnico tweeters, posted on December 11, 2016 at 06:24:48
I use them all with very good results

 

RE: Fostex alnico tweeters, posted on December 11, 2016 at 07:41:36
Posts: 2889
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I use the T500 in my system which is Edgar architecture but using INLOW horns in the same ranges. Started out with Edgar stuff

I tried many things but ended up being most satisfied with Edgar's recommendation for the FANES (which are pretty annoying). Which is to use nothing more than a capacitor in series.

I use about 0.88 uF of Russian teflons and that is it. No need for padding, you just don't want a resistor in the circuit if you can help it.

Play around with capacitor values and you will find a combo that works. I am using 4 0.22 uF - I would bet that you are better off using one brand/model of capacitor. If you want to sneak up on the right value get a bunch of .1 uF caps.

I had used a 1uF Jupiter copper foil and this was just a bit too much.

Maybe I have grown used to it or my implementation has ameliorated the infamous "ping" sound the FOSTEX tweeters are noted for. Using them purely for atmospherics so they do not impose themselves on the 2441s. I am using the TRUEXTENT diaphragms and these do meld nicely with the T500s - at least I think they do.

One advantage of going ahead and getting the "really good one" is you will not wonder "what if?". Unless you want to drive yourself nuts with wondering what would happen with that TAD supertweeter or a GOTO. Luckily this never crosses my mind.

 

RE: Fostex alnico tweeters, posted on December 11, 2016 at 09:09:51
Don Reid
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Posts: 389
Joined: February 2, 2001



Hey, belyin. The way I mounted the Fostex bullets with the Oris Horns is a method I would only recommend to someone who uses DSP, is retired, has plenty of time on their hands and really really enjoys spending a lot of time in their workshop working on speaker projects.

As the photo shows I made what I call a tweeter crane which brings the mouth of the bullet tweeters above and even with the mouth of the Oris horns. I chose this mounting method in hopes of achieving a cleaner wave launch from the bullet tweeters. The obvious distance displacement between the acoustic centers of the tweeters and the Oris horn drivers would make this mounting technique unworkable without DSP to correct for the time lag.

 

RE: Fostex alnico tweeters, posted on December 11, 2016 at 09:12:06
claudej1@aol.com
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Wow. Beautiful work. What about matching polar dispersion? At what X over frequency?

 

a tweeter crane!, posted on December 11, 2016 at 09:54:00
mhardy6647
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I wish I had one of those! Check that: I wish I had two of those.

It's not pretty when I do woodworking, though.

It's also not pretty when I dabble in the digital domain.

Thanks, though, for sharing that idea & image!
all the best,
mrh

 

Me too!, posted on December 11, 2016 at 12:20:47
amandarae
Audiophile

Posts: 2231
Location: So.Cal
Joined: November 30, 2004

 

RE: Fostex alnico tweeters, posted on December 11, 2016 at 15:00:04
Rpower
Audiophile

Posts: 211
Location: Northeast Georgia
Joined: October 27, 2000
Hi Jim,

I have tried the Fostex F17H tweeter with a .68uf cap in series with good results. But I like the Selenium ST200 with a 4 ohm resistor and .68uf cap in series better, it blends better and sounds less "tweety".

 

RE: Fostex alnico tweeters, posted on December 11, 2016 at 15:16:11
Rpower
Audiophile

Posts: 211
Location: Northeast Georgia
Joined: October 27, 2000



Here is my poor man's Fostex T900 (FT17H) mounted in a speaker port tube.

 

nice clip leads! :-), posted on December 11, 2016 at 19:27:23
mhardy6647
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Cryo treated, I would hope.

;-)


I started with clip leads, but did finally build a box for the wiring, cap & pad. I tend to be a little slothful.

IMG_0340
all the best,
mrh

 

RE: nice clip leads! :-), posted on December 11, 2016 at 22:34:49
amandarae
Audiophile

Posts: 2231
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"Cryo treated" haha!

For caps, I would recommend Aerovox or John E. Fast for polyprop . Hyrel, Micamold, or Gudeman( I am using 0.67uF, 0.22//0.47) PIO. Vitamin Q is also fine but the Hyrels,Micamolds, and Gudeman are smoother and clearer for some reason in my system. To me, better than the Russian PIO, Jensen PIO, or Mundorf PIO I tried for supertweeter duty. But of course, different system, different results.

Happy Holidays!

 

thanks for the capacitor suggestions (nt), posted on December 12, 2016 at 06:09:55
mhardy6647
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nt
all the best,
mrh

 

RE: Fostex alnico tweeters, posted on December 12, 2016 at 07:05:37
Don Reid
Audiophile

Posts: 389
Joined: February 2, 2001
Thanks for the compliment, claudejel.

I did consider polar dispersion along with many other factors before I decided that the best compromise to try was the tweeter crane. After cobbling it all together I made jigs which allowed me to quickly and precisely position a laser gun sight at the mouth of the Oris horns and bullet tweeters which directed the laser beam along a path that at least theoretically followed the center of the sound wave projected by each horn/driver combination. Then I aligned each horn driver combo so that the red spots from the four positions of the laser appeared at a point on a screen just behind my listening seat about 1/2 meter above and 1 meter behind my ears. Actually the four laser spots hit within an area about the size of a half dollar coin. Aligning them to all hit at the same point just wasn't possible, and I thought I might go crazy if I kept attempting that. Then I listened. I was pleased, but being well into geezerhood my ears aren't as good as they were fifty or sixty years ago. The real acid test was when I invited audiophile friends over for a listen. They too were pleased by the sound.

The only way I thought I could achieve great polar dispersion was to make a jig which positioned the bullet tweeters in the center of the mouth of the Oris horns, and that was a nonstarter because of the havoc I thought it would wreak on the sound of the Oris horns.

Crossovers are at a nominal 8kHz with both high pass and low pass slopes at 96dB/octave.

 

RE: Fostex alnico tweeters, posted on December 12, 2016 at 07:38:27
Crazy Dave
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Posts: 12578
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How does it sound?

Dave

 

Thanks for all the responses! (nt), posted on December 12, 2016 at 08:50:57
Jim D.
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.

 

RE: Fostex alnico tweeters, posted on December 12, 2016 at 09:14:12
Jim D.
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Yes, well said about buying the T500amk2 first. After my negative experience with the Fanes, I tried a couple "cheap" tweeters and decided I'd wait until I could buy something that is up to the challenge of my horns.

I see you use some First Watt gear. I'm listening to an M2 clone now with my horns.

Jim

 

RE: Fostex alnico tweeters, posted on December 12, 2016 at 10:05:17
Don Reid
Audiophile

Posts: 389
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I find your mention of First Watt amps interesting. For a long time I used Cary Audio 2a3 SET monoblocks to power the wide range horns and bullet tweeters of my rig. I replaced those with a pair of First Watt F3 stereo amps. I found that to be a real upgrade, and I have no regrets about the change.

 

What is the point going so high?, posted on December 12, 2016 at 12:05:18
pix
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Location: sweden
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I read that a lot of you fellows are using a 0,67 uF cap in series with your 8 Ohms tweeters.
That will give you an Xover point of 30 000 Hz, which is way above human hearing and also most playback sources.
I use a 1,5uF cap giving my Fostex T90a a 13 000 Hz Xover, which I feel would be better match to my Radian 750/200hz tractrix horns.

 

Have you tried it?, posted on December 12, 2016 at 20:19:49
amandarae
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I do not use the tweeters in a conventional tweeter duty. In this arrangement, many call it " super tweeter". Yes, it is about 30kHz, I also try 25kHz (about 0.8uF). Try it, it adds "ambience" to the listening room and virtually increases the size of stage when done right. At 1800 Hz XO to my Altec 614's, 1800 Hz up to 22kHz is taken care of by the HF driver(Altec 802) and not the tweeter we are discussing. Cheers!

 

Well..., posted on December 12, 2016 at 22:18:25
pix
Audiophile

Posts: 357
Location: sweden
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No. My Radian 750 with alu membrans dropp of by 15 kHz and My thought was to extend that up to 20 000 Hz.
Perhaps with My lowish roll off, a 30k Hz would be strange with a gap i the frequency range?

 

RE: Have you tried it?, posted on December 12, 2016 at 23:08:17
ahendler
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That added ambience is probably noise. Have you listened to the super tweeter by itself? There is no musical material there that you can hear.
Alan

 

RE: What is the point going so high?, posted on December 13, 2016 at 00:56:54
91derlust
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Posts: 466
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These guys are using 1st order crossovers, in some cases without padding down. I reckon the tweet would be (easily) heard when used like this.

Cheers,
91.

"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein

 

RE: Fostex alnico tweeters, posted on December 13, 2016 at 03:49:12
awsjr
Audiophile

Posts: 141
Location: Austin, Tejas
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good morning Don... my set up components are similar, Onken 360 cabinets with GPA 515LF bass, Oris 200 with AER MD3 and Fostex T900A... passive crossovers at 400 and 6000... with the AER MD3 so $$$ thought I would try two way to let the AER drivers really play and like this a lot more then 3 way... have you tried this ?

 

RE: Have you tried it?, posted on December 13, 2016 at 06:07:51
amandarae
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Hello Alan! I remember you from my Magnepan days!
Anyway, no but I tried. The Fostex is no match to an 802 doing HF duty in my config. As for the freq range that it cover as a super tweeter using 0.68 uF, try it, but you have to implement an LPad to attenuate the amplitude so as to blend in with the HF driver. It is not "just" noise as you call it. Difficult to explain really until you try it. I was a non believer too but I heard it from a system and added it to my set up.

 

FW amps, posted on December 13, 2016 at 06:31:16
Posts: 2889
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I tried the single ended thing and enjoyed them until I realized they made everything sound too similar. Yes, it was a nice golden sound but you eventually grow tired of that fingerprint.

The FWs eliminate tube condition anxiety.

I have hot-rodded the SIT1s by putting in a small input cap to act as a high pass filter around 400 hz and the output caps are removed and the capacitance needed for the speaker level 500 hz high pass inserted.

I used a copper Vcap on the input and the DYNAMICAP at the speaker. Was using Russian paper oils but the DYNAMICAPs are better once they get some age on them.

The amp is spacious and true in tone.

My FW amps are my last amplifiers.

 

RE: Yes, I Have!, posted on December 13, 2016 at 08:02:33
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 5736
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
Hi ahendler.

You were 100% when you said, a super-tweeter adds no musical material to the music info ---that you can hear! This is something most audiophiles attempt to prove to themselves by listening to the super-tweeter itself. However doing this isn't sufficient enough to come to the conclusion that "the added ambience that's heard when using a super-tweeter is probably noise." I know what I'm talking about because I previously added a pair of Fostex T900a to act as "super-tweeters to my Dayton PS220-8 single, full-range drivers.

The T900a super-tweeters were crossed in using a 6dB crossover @ 10 kHz and covered the frequencies of 10 kHz to 38 kHz. I believe that despite the fact that I don't hear above 15 kHz, adding super-tweeters must create some psycho-acoustic effects that the brain perceives on a subconscious level. I say this because I heard the same sonic improvements to my system that you can read about super-tweeters from most anyone else who's super-tweeters.

Almost all audiophiles who've used them will say something basically like what John Potis said in his MuRata super-tweeter (TG1954: the MuRatas are true super-tweeters covering from 15kHz to 100kHz) review for 6moons: ---there's an increase in vibrancy and detail that they bring to the treble as you would expect. But that's only the beginning of their story. Cleaner, more sharply defined and more articulate bass is what will amaze you and an easily perceived bump in midrange articulation may just astound you. And add to that greatly improved transient snap, microdynamics and drive.

So no, my friend it's not just noise that added by super-tweeters. They definitely add to the enjoyment of listening to your music and in a very noticeable way...

I'm listening to: Use Me by Vanessa Fernandez





Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: Visaton TL 16 H, posted on December 13, 2016 at 08:11:49
thetubeguy1954
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Hi Rpower!

While I haven't heard them myself, I've read where others said the same thing about the Visaton TL 16 H super-tweeter. They cost $600 a pair but the Fostex T900a cost $1070 a pair. So they might even be considered a deal? I'd love to compare these two horn super-tweeters one day if I could.


I'm listening to: Use Me by Vanessa Fernandez







Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: Fostex alnico tweeters, posted on December 13, 2016 at 08:44:01
Don Reid
Audiophile

Posts: 389
Joined: February 2, 2001
Hey, awsjr. I played the Oris horns in a two way setup with the bass bins of a pair of Klipschorns providing the bass. DSP corrected for the time difference caused by having the Khorns back in the corners and the Oris horns out in the room. The two way setup sounded good but lacked the high frequency shimmer or sparkle present in most live music. The t900a tweeters corrected this and greatly improved the accuracy of the system.

 

Hard to explain how old ears that can't hear above 10KHz or so..., posted on December 13, 2016 at 09:11:26
Ivan303
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Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - San Francisco
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And yet in experiments with super tweeters with a claimed low end of 15K, I seem to be able to tell when they are in the system and when not,

Blinded, of course, which is a pretty easy test for me as while my hearing is good for an old guy, my eyes are pretty bad.





 

No, it's passing freqs. well below 10K., posted on December 13, 2016 at 09:20:12
Coner
Audiophile

Posts: 1843
Location: S.W. Washington state, USA
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If you just use a cap for 10K, it'll pass plenty of highs below
that point. Only 6db down at 5K. So it's covering well more than
the "10K-38K" you stated.

 

No, it's audible., posted on December 13, 2016 at 09:25:14
Coner
Audiophile

Posts: 1843
Location: S.W. Washington state, USA
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Still passing audible freq's...7.5 Khz @ 12db down, 15K @ 6db down
using your 30K x-over point. Still useful as a supplemental
super tweeter.

 

Digital medias cuts of at 22kHz, posted on December 13, 2016 at 09:39:59
pix
Audiophile

Posts: 357
Location: sweden
Joined: March 18, 2006
As I wrote, I own a pair of Fostex T90a and I am rather ambivalent on what to think.
Sure when The X-over is at 15k (1st order) they will sound way below that. But when you guys X-over at 30k, one must wonder how much is music, and how much is noise within the human heariing range (maximum 17khz when you are around middleaged).
Beond that, the CD-medium cuts of really hard everything above 22khz, so what kind of signal reaches the tweeters at those freqencies?

 

With just a cap and no L-pad your looking at 100dB at 5KHz..., posted on December 13, 2016 at 09:42:03
Ivan303
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Posts: 34956
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - San Francisco
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Well past the sensitivity of your Dayton full range drivers (95.6dB)

Even I could hear them at that level. ;-)



 

RE: Yes, I Have!, posted on December 13, 2016 at 10:48:05
ahendler
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Never said you are not hearing an improvement in sound when using a super tweeter. In the 60's when we first brought in the Dolby-A noise reduction system to our studio everybody though high frequencies were being rolled off. But when we took measurements Frequency responce was the same with or without Dolby. We spent a lot of time trying to figure out what was going on. We discovered that if you took a recording and added random noise from 12khz to 20khz there was a definet increase in frequency extension along with increased resolution in detail. So you guys are correct in what you are hearing, you just have the mechanism wrong. Interesting passive aggresive use of the phrase "my friend" or is it sarcasm?
Alan

 

RE: Have you tried it?, posted on December 13, 2016 at 10:50:10
ahendler
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See my above post showing how adding noise at high frequencies causes the effect you are hearing. I tried a super tweeter with a pair of Lowthers and they had no effect at all
Alan

 

RE: Yes, I Have!, posted on December 13, 2016 at 12:45:46
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 5736
Location: Orlando, Fla
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Alan when I say "my friend" there's nothing passive aggressive or sarcastic meant on my part. To me you're one of my online audio "friends." Now while I suppose audio acquaintance would be a closer rendition of what we actually are. I feel using the term "my acquaintance" would come off more like what your suggesting I meant! Trust me, I'm not a subtle type of person. When I'm being sarcastic or aggressive ---{I'm never passive in my aggressiveness}--- you'll definitely know what I'm being. In the meantime I suppose this will be one of those topics where we'll just have to agree to disagree until someone does a test comparing the same exact song, in the same room, on the same audio system, at the exact same volume. And then adding both random noise from 12 kHz to 20 kHz and a super-tweeter and have people listen for whether or not there are audible differences between those two, or not. I believe it would be a waste of time for us to discuss this any further as you won't be able to convince me I'm wrong in my beliefs and I'm quite sure I won't be able to convince you you're wrong in your beliefs either. So until those tests are run, neither of us will know who's opinion is correct...

I'm listening to: Feel The Rhythm by Daria







Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

Not noise but hf..., posted on December 13, 2016 at 12:46:57
amandarae
Audiophile

Posts: 2231
Location: So.Cal
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... what can I say? There's sonething there and I am telling you from what I am experiencing.
Your 3.6R is what, 40kHz I believe. Connect a low pass filter at say 20kHz cut off to the ribbon and you will hear the effect of losing the "subtle" sound (or harmonics maybe?)coming from the tweeters upper range.
Happy holidays!

 

RE: With just a cap and no L-pad your looking at 100dB at 5KHz..., posted on December 13, 2016 at 12:58:14
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 5736
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
Ivan,

You weren't the first person to bring that issue up. Almost all my local audio friends did as well. But remember I cannot hear above 15 kHz so the T900a being a good 5dB more sensitive shouldn't matter much. Granted I didn't have an L-pad, but a friend threw a resistor in the XO somewhere to make them almost even volume wise. My point is if I cannot hear above 15 kHz how did I hear what I'd call more extended highs, with more "air" around instruments & singers? If I had an equalizer and boosted the frequency at 5 kHz that wouldn't be the effect I'd expect to hear! The weirdest part is the bass seemed more taunt and deeper as well. Go figure...

I'm listening to: Feel The Rhythm by Daria







Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: Not noise but hf..., posted on December 13, 2016 at 13:04:13
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 5736
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
Hi amandarae!

You're 100% correct all one has to do is disconnect their tweeter and listen to how much the midrange and bass changes without a tweeter to understand how a super-tweeter can also greatly influence the sound of the music as well...

I'm listening to: Feel The Rhythm by Daria






Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: Fostex F-17H, posted on December 13, 2016 at 13:44:01
Scott L
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Posts: 246
Location: Knoxville
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I gave Jim a pair of those a few years back, when I visited him. I really didn't think they were efficient enough to match his Edgar Salad bowls, but I said hey, try them anyway !

 

RE: No, it's audible., posted on December 13, 2016 at 14:31:27
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 12023
Location: So. Cal.
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Small correction, but your point still stands.


The 30k crossover point is the -3db point so 15k would be at -9db and 7.5k would be at -15db


Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Hard to explain how old ears that can't hear above 10KHz or so..., posted on December 13, 2016 at 14:33:07
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 12023
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
I thought humans "hear" the real high stuff through the bones in our head.

I don't know, I read that somewhere.


Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

Perhaps you refer to, posted on December 13, 2016 at 14:56:55
E-Stat
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Boyk's work found here.

Perhaps the question is not what we *hear* as much as what we perceive.

 

RE: Perhaps you refer to, posted on December 13, 2016 at 16:48:56
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 5736
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
Hi Estat!

That's an excellent point you made about it not being what we *hear* as much as what we perceive. That's why I said in my first post in this thread; ---adding super-tweeters must create some psycho-acoustic effects that the brain perceives on a subconscious level.


I'm listening to: Shine On Brightly by Procol Harum






Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

If you x-over at 30K with a 6dB per octave x-over..., posted on December 13, 2016 at 17:50:20
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 34956
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - San Francisco
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with no L-pad, and your horn tweeter in question is 6dB more sensitive that the rest of your speaker, then you are right in line at 15K and only 6dB below the rest of the speaker at 7.5K.





 

RE: Yes, I Have!, posted on December 13, 2016 at 18:56:01
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 4715
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
Contributor
  Since:
January 14, 2010
I agree with everything you just said. I also apologies for my comment on My Friend. I have experienced a lot of rude behavior on this site and I guess I just have come to expect that. Happy holidays
Alan

 

RE: If you x-over at 30K with a 6dB per octave x-over..., posted on December 13, 2016 at 20:12:49
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 12023
Location: So. Cal.
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,
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Perhaps you refer to, posted on December 13, 2016 at 20:58:54
jad
Audiophile

Posts: 146
Joined: August 23, 2002
When most of us can't hear above 10k it doesn't mean we can't hear above 10k. It simply means we can't hear 10k at the db level of the 2k-5k frequencies. This is shown in the Fletcher-Munson curves are is exaggerated as we age. If we boost the level at 10k we can hear it. So even though the super tweeter might be -7.5db down or more within the hearing range and rising to 0 or plus db at our crossover frequency which might be out of our hearing range, we are still adding (tweeter plus super tweeter) to the db level within the upper limits of the hearing range (rising from 5k to 15k) while not adding to the 2k-5k range. In other words by adding a super tweeter, aren't we providing a hf boost within our range of hearing and flattening the hf curve? Even if we have not truly flattened the frequency curve we have added to it which is something we will hear and the extent of what we hear will depend on not only the crossover frequency providing the additive curve, but our own hearing range.

 

Waste of Time, posted on December 14, 2016 at 09:27:25
Inmate51
Audiophile

Posts: 8744
Joined: July 6, 2005
This is one of the ongoing problems in audiophileland. Armchair "audio experts" develop "beliefs" which, only when reality smacks them on the head will they change, if then. This is despite that their beliefs are often unfounded, unproven, incorrect, or based on what they read in some audio magazine or from other audiophiles.



 

Yes, that's it. Thank you. (nt), posted on December 14, 2016 at 09:27:30
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 12023
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.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Yes, I Have!, posted on December 14, 2016 at 10:26:37
Inmate51
Audiophile

Posts: 8744
Joined: July 6, 2005
"The T900a super-tweeters were crossed in using a 6dB crossover @ 10 kHz and covered the frequencies of 10 kHz to 38 kHz. I believe that despite the fact that I don't hear above 15 kHz, adding super-tweeters must create some psycho-acoustic effects that the brain perceives on a subconscious level."

Actually, in your implementation, they usefully covered the frequency range of about 5kHz and upward, given your 10kHz at 6 dB x-over. Further, since an 8 inch driver will severely beam at upper frequencies (as well as have decreasing output even on-axis), another part of the improvement can be attributed to a better ambient sound field. This is not subconcious, it's readily and audibly apparent.

 

RE: Waste of Time, posted on December 14, 2016 at 11:32:38
ahendler
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Posts: 4715
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Contributor
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I am not an Armchair audio expert. I am a degreed electrical engineer, a longtime recording engineer at the largest recording studio in Chicago and technical adviser to two brick and mortar high end audio stores in Chicago. I am the engineer on Buddy Miles Them Changes album, have recorded the Chicago symphony, over 2000 TV and radio commercials and many location recordings. If I am not qualified to comment about this hobby then I am not too sure that you are qualified either. Next time try to get your facts straight before commenting.
Alan

 

RE: Fostex alnico tweeters, posted on December 14, 2016 at 12:12:57
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 260
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
Excellent approach. Gotta love modern DSP technology coupled with horns!!

 

RE: Waste of Time, posted on December 14, 2016 at 12:42:57
Inmate51
Audiophile

Posts: 8744
Joined: July 6, 2005
My post was directed at tubeguy1954. Did I put it in the wrong place?

:)

 

RE: Waste of Time, posted on December 14, 2016 at 13:15:22
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 4715
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
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January 14, 2010
Sorry if I misunderstood. When there are a lot of posts it is sometimes hard to determine who is being referenced. Well at least I got my credentials out there again. I do want to say that this is a free and open forum. Not really a professional forum even though there are pros here. I do not want to turn off anybody from posting here no matter what there background is. Anything that spurs conversation is good although I wish we, including me, would keep personal attacks out of our discussions
Alan

 

Procol Harum are one of the greats, posted on December 14, 2016 at 16:56:56
Posts: 2889
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
Contributor
  Since:
November 29, 2011
Gets played here often.

Those first four are ageless records.

Music and lyrics that grab your interest even after hundreds of listenings.

Glad to hear SOMEONE else appreciates them!

 

RE: Waste of Time, posted on December 14, 2016 at 19:52:19
Inmate51
Audiophile

Posts: 8744
Joined: July 6, 2005
"then I am not too sure that you are qualified either. Next time try to get your facts straight before commenting."

"I wish we, including me, would keep personal attacks out of our discussions"

Okee doekee. ;)


:)

 

RE: Yes, I Have!, posted on December 15, 2016 at 09:30:18
Don Reid
Audiophile

Posts: 389
Joined: February 2, 2001
Perhaps I am just too slow to pick up on aggressions and insults , but in my opinion High Efficiency Asylum is a quite civilized website compared to many others I regularly visit. That is one of many things I like about our
forum.

 

RE: No, it's audible., posted on December 15, 2016 at 10:11:02
Hornlover
Manufacturer

Posts: 2095
Joined: March 8, 2002
No, the turnover is still in transition at the -3db (cutoff) point. It will be -6.02db at 7.5k.

 

RE: Procol Harum are one of the greats, posted on December 15, 2016 at 17:32:04
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 5736
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
Hi Rick I grew up listening to Procol Harum. A Salty Dog and Shine On Brightly are my two favorite recordings by them! But of course their first Procol Harum was also an amazing piece of work. I also really like Procol Harum Live: In Concert with the Edmonton Symphony Orchestra very much too. IMHO these recordings from the late 60's to early 70's are still very fresh.


I'm listening to: Across The Rubicon by Silhouette




Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: Waste of Time, posted on December 15, 2016 at 18:03:45
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 5736
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
Hi Inmate!

I can definitely see some truth in what you said. But unless extensive tests are done, we'll never know who's right or wrong will we? It's quite possible one of those armchair "audio experts" you spoke of, might have actually developed a "belief" that's correct!

I recently had an a new audio friend that I met at one of our local Audio Society meeting over to listen to my audio system, a Mastersound Reference 845, Integrated amp, YBA Genesis CD4 CDP and Beauhorn Virtuoso speakers. As we spoke between recordings he asked why I had 3 different pairs of ICs, 4 different pairs of speaker-wires and 3 different digital wires. I replied that whenever I make a change in my system by replacing say one CDP with a different CDP or if add a new audio component, like the Musical Paradise MP-D2 DAC I'm looking at, then I try all these wires over again. So that I can see which one sounds best with the new system configuration!

He laughed a little and said to me "You really believe those different ICs, speaker-wires or digital wires sound noticeably different? I told him I know they sound different and I'll show you they do. After replacing the ICs we were using with a different pair, I noticed a look on his face that revealed to me he heard, not just a difference, but a very noticeable difference in their sonics! Which is exactly what he said as soon as the song stopped. His problem was created before coming to my home. He had tried different ICs on his system, but, didn't hear a significant difference and came to the immediate conclusion that 1) wires all sound the same and 2) those who say differently are just fooling themselves. That's NOT what he believes today.

Inmate, my friend, if there's any "problem" with audiophiles/music lovers, it's that they often form staunch opinions based on too little knowledge, experience, or trials. We all only know what we know about audio based from what we've heard. Then we form opinions based on the knowledge we have or we create a post on some audio forum based from that same audio knowledge. While the reality is that those opinions we've formed could actually change based on the very next audio system we listen to...


I'm listening to: Across The Rubicon by Silhouette




Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: Waste of Time, posted on December 15, 2016 at 18:09:02
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 5736
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
Hi ahendler,

I hope you're not suggesting that I personally attacked you? If you feel I did please include a link to the post where I did so ok? I'd like to reread that post. Perhaps you saw something that wasn't there like when you said I was either being passive-aggressive or sarcastic, when I wasn't being either to you?


I'm listening to: Across The Rubicon by Silhouette




Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: Waste of Time, posted on December 15, 2016 at 18:24:01
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 4715
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
Contributor
  Since:
January 14, 2010
No, no, I did and do not feel attacked by you at all. As I said just felt the phrase "my friend" was a little strange. No problem, I always enjoy your posts
Alan

 

RE: Yes, I Have!, posted on December 15, 2016 at 18:25:02
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 5736
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
Alan,

That's quite alright! I, too, have experienced a lot of personal attacks because of some opinions I have. IMHO there are some audio arguments that will ever be won. One of those is: Do wires have a unique sound of their own? I believe if you see two people discussing the POV that is the opposite of what you ---{and by you, I mean anyone who has the opposite POV than the one being discussed}--- believe on this issue. It's almost always best to stay out of their discussion!

Why do I believe this? Because I've yet see anyone from one side of this argument win a convert to the opposite side of this argument. Usually a person from the opposite POV will join their discussion and usually the conversation stays civil initially. But as more people join in on both sides of this argument/discussion/debate, some will start to make mean comments about one of those from the opposite POV and this inevitably leads to name-calling, disparaging comments about each other and always near the end, before a moderator intervenes, just one side attacking the other!

I never understood why people let this happen over & over again. But, in any event it was nice talking with you again. I can tell that although we might have different beliefs about audio, your a gentleman and I respect that aspect of your personality --a lot.

I'm listening to: Across The Rubicon by Silhouette




Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: Waste of Time, posted on December 15, 2016 at 18:29:21
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 5736
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
Alan I just read your other post and I can tell from your response your a person of integrity. If you read my other response it will explain more that I don't wish to repeat here! In all sincerity I wish the best "my friend!"


I'm listening to: Across The Rubicon by Silhouette






Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: No, it's audible., posted on December 15, 2016 at 21:36:57
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 12023
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
The example was a .67uf cap in series with a 8 ohm tweeter. A first order filter.

The crossover point for a BW filter is the -3dB point and for a LR it is the -6dB point.

All first order filters are BW filters.

A .67uf cap in series with a 8 ohm tweeter will cause the -3db point to be 29,693 Hz.

From that -3db point on, the signal will fall an additional 6db per octave.

One octave below the crossover point will be at -9db

Tre'


Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Yes, I Have!, posted on December 16, 2016 at 01:05:56
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 5736
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
Hi Don,

I'd have to agree with you.


Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: Fostex alnico tweeters, posted on December 16, 2016 at 07:20:03
Rpower
Audiophile

Posts: 211
Location: Northeast Georgia
Joined: October 27, 2000
It is good, but has a sort of "cupped hands" sound to it. the Selenium ST200 is smoother and blends better, maybe because it is phenolic or maybe because it is a larger diaphragm than the Fostex.

 

RE: No, it's audible., posted on December 16, 2016 at 08:17:35
Hornlover
Manufacturer

Posts: 2095
Joined: March 8, 2002
No, it isnt. At the 3db point, the slope is still transitioning. its still on the knee of the curve.

 

RE: Waste of Time, posted on December 16, 2016 at 08:37:40
Inmate51
Audiophile

Posts: 8744
Joined: July 6, 2005
"unless extensive tests are done, we'll never know who's right or wrong will we? "

If you'd read your AES and ASA journals, you'd know that a plethora of tests, experiments, studies and research have been done for at least 70 years!

Ya gotta get your head out of the audiophile mags and read some real science. Start here: "Why You Hear What You Hear" by Dr. Eric Heller. Go from there.


:)

 

RE: Hard to explain how old ears that can't hear above 10KHz or so..., posted on December 16, 2016 at 12:09:36
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9702
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005

I feel there are resultants on high, that come down the scale into the midrange. As we age, we hear those resultants, and judge easily what sounds real or canned.

I recall Bob Fulton, in about 1983 give or take, tell me about an 80+ year old woman on his Listening Panel, who couldn't hear a watch tick, and had 'nada above 5K. One day, Bob removed the fuse from is tweeter section's highest-playing driver, maybe, lets say, 32 K on up to 100K, and the Old Woman blurted out to Bob " What Happened To The Highs ".

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Fostex alnico tweeters, posted on December 16, 2016 at 12:38:00
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 12578
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
The Selenium is also much lower in price. Is it very beamy?

Dave

 

Beamy?, posted on December 17, 2016 at 08:57:03
Jim Smith
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Since the tweeter will aim all frequencies straight ahead whose wavelength is smaller than the tweeter's diameter, I have wondered why you wouldn't have to aim any supertweeter directly (horizontally & vertically) at the corresponding ear to even receive the higher frequency sounds at all.

For example, 20 kKz is 0.678" in length, so shouldn't any supertweeter have to be smaller than a half inch in diameter to be picked up by the listener off-axis (seemingly would require the left supertweeter to be aimed precisely at the listener's left ear and the same for the right channel)? 30 KHz (0.452") would seemingly require laser-like focus of the supertweeter at the listener's ears.

And yet I routinely see images of systems with the supertweeter aimed off-axis and often above the listener's ears as well.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I would love to understand this concept better.

Best regards,

Jim Smith

 

RE: No, it's audible., posted on December 17, 2016 at 12:33:11
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 12023
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
"At the 3db point, the slope is still transitioning. its still on the knee of the curve. "

OK, did I say it wasn't?

My point is that the stated crossover frequency is the 3db down point when using a 1st order filter.

Do you dispute that?

"No, the turnover is still in transition at the -3db (cutoff) point. It will be -6.02db at 7.5k."

How do you figure that?

The 3db down point of his filter is at 30kHz. At 15kHz if will be nearly 6db further down and at 7.5kHz another 6db below that.

I feel like we are having some trouble communicating with each other.

Maybe it's me, maybe it's you. :-)



Sorry, I know we were talking about a high pass filter and this chart is of a low pass filter but it's the first one I found. It still show what needs to be seen.


Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Beamy?, posted on December 17, 2016 at 19:44:52
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 12578
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
Theoretically, the dispersion is narrow, because that is what is specified, even at lower frequencies. The Selenium ST200 tweeter is specified as 40 degrees x 40 degrees dispersion. However, I was more interested in what an advocate of this tweeter actually experienced, since theory does not aways predict what actually is experienced. Being in my late 50's, I don't expect I hear much at 20kHz.

 

RE: No, it's audible., posted on December 19, 2016 at 09:18:12
Hornlover
Manufacturer

Posts: 2095
Joined: March 8, 2002
7.5k was in error. it would be -6db at one octave below the cutoff. It seems that you are saying it would be -9db at one octave below cutoff, but it is -6.

 

I stand corrected., posted on December 19, 2016 at 15:46:28
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 12023
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
Yes, you are right.

I see that now.

My apologies.

The filter is still on the knee, as you said, for the first octave after the 3db down point. The filter only reaches the 6db per octave rate of fall after that. Actually the filter takes a little longer than that to reach the 6db per octave fall rate.

I guess that means my tweeters are playing harder at the lower frequencies than I thought.

Thanks for the correction.

Tre'


Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Fostex alnico tweeters, posted on December 19, 2016 at 21:59:51
Rpower
Audiophile

Posts: 211
Location: Northeast Georgia
Joined: October 27, 2000
I didn't find the ST200 to be beamy. I really liked the way it blended. It is listed as a super tweeter BTW, a big chunky fellow.

 

RE: I stand corrected., posted on December 20, 2016 at 08:54:42
Hornlover
Manufacturer

Posts: 2095
Joined: March 8, 2002
No need for apologies. Learning is what this is all about. Sharing knowledge which would be much harder before the internet. I have learned some things from you over the years.

 

RE: Fostex alnico tweeters, posted on December 21, 2016 at 08:09:25
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 12578
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
Thanks for the follow-up. It does seem like a lot of super tweeter for the money. That gets the gears turning! It might be just the thing to go on top of an Eminence Alpha 5 or 6. Add some 12" of 15" woofers on the bottom or an active subwoofer and you've got a low priced great souring system.

Dave

 

RE: Beamy?, posted on December 21, 2016 at 10:01:48
Inmate51
Audiophile

Posts: 8744
Joined: July 6, 2005
"Since the tweeter will aim all frequencies straight ahead whose wavelength is smaller than the tweeter's diameter, I have wondered why you wouldn't have to aim any supertweeter directly (horizontally & vertically) at the corresponding ear to even receive the higher frequency sounds at all."

You're referring to theory. Harry Olson, in "Acoustical Engineering", described this. However, that isn't how it works in reality. Other factors come into play. Olson also noted this.

With regard to tweeters being "aimed" off-axis, this may be an attempt to improve the direct and/or ambient soundfield in some rooms with some speaker/room combinations.

Hope this helps.

:)

 

RE: Fane Tweeters aren't THAT bad..., posted on December 31, 2016 at 01:58:40
EduardG
Audiophile

Posts: 240
Joined: May 30, 2002
Fostex 925A IS the best balance. We (as in Cyrus Brenneman and I) compared 925A with T500 A-B and the difference was barely, if at all, noticeable.

 

RE: nice clip leads! :-), posted on January 28, 2017 at 11:55:08
PakProtector
Audiophile

Posts: 11270
Joined: May 14, 2002
For tweeters, and coupling caps for that matter, it is hard to beat the MKV. The only size I have them in is 1.25 uF at 660 VAC...:)
cheers,
Douglas

Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.

 

Cool!, posted on January 28, 2017 at 13:53:37
amandarae
Audiophile

Posts: 2231
Location: So.Cal
Joined: November 30, 2004
I will find some and try it out!

Abe

 

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