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High Efficiency Monitors

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Posted on September 20, 2010 at 18:16:12
jackiejr
Audiophile

Posts: 4
Location: NJ
Joined: March 21, 2009
 I want to purchase an SET amp. Not sure what kind of tube yet. However, I need monitors. My room is 12'x13'. Price range for the speakers, $3-$5k (new or used). Listen to orchestral, small ensemble to R&B.

I guess I would augment the monitors with a sub. 30Hz-35Hz.

All suggestions will be appreciated.

Spend about the same for the amp(new or used).

 

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RE: High Efficiency Monitors, posted on September 20, 2010 at 18:55:53
Tom Brennan
Audiophile

Posts: 5854
Joined: January 2, 2000
 Do you mean monitors in horn enthusiast terms; the often very large and very high efficiency speakers used in studios and in the homes of many hornys? Or in audiophile terms meaning shoebox sized speakers usually with a small cone and dome?

If you want large monitors I'd suggest a big Altec, EV or JBL with 15" or dual 12" woofers; Altec 19 or 9844, JBL 4430 and so on. Or EV Sentry IIIs. And others of that ilk such as big Tannoys, Altec 604-605, Ureis and such.

If you want a small monitor save yourself some dough and instead of putzing around with audiophile speakers go to Guitar Center and get some KRKs that IMO&E sound just as good at a fraction of the price. But note that small monitors with decent bass won't be high-E; The KRKs are not but they'll do OK in small room with low powered amp.

 

RE: High Efficiency Monitors, posted on September 20, 2010 at 19:17:41
jackiejr
Audiophile

Posts: 4
Location: NJ
Joined: March 21, 2009
 I mean small monitors such as the Audio Note offerings, etc. Or the Coincident model as another example.

 

Two comments, posted on September 20, 2010 at 22:15:39
Rick R
Audiophile

Posts: 723
Location: San Diego
Joined: June 24, 2002
Contributor
  Since: September 22, 2003
 1. Please don't call small or book shelf speakers monitors, it drives some people crazy. See link below:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=133813&highlight=rick+r+rick+r&r=

2. I have tried a bunch of these, here is a past post with some thoughts:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=122957&highlight=speakers+Rick+R&r=&session=


 

RE: High Efficiency Monitors, posted on September 21, 2010 at 04:53:39
theaudiohobby
Audiophile

Posts: 4674
Joined: January 16, 2003
 "small monitors such as the Audio Note offerings" are no more efficient that most of the competititon, I owned the Audio Note K/D and I doubt it was better than 86db/1m, My experience with the Audio Note J/Spe though more limited is such that I am certain its true efficiency is no better than 90dB/1m. High efficiency and small monitor speakers are contradictory concepts. If you want moderately efficient that is high 80s small speakers, the likes of Kef Q, Audio Note (J/Spe) and Omega are good options. IMO, the Kef is probably the most balanced and cheapest though the Audio Note and Omega have their fans.

Music making the painting, recording it the photograph

 

RE: High Efficiency Monitors, posted on September 21, 2010 at 05:20:34
Cut-Throat
Audiophile

Posts: 18286
Location: Minneapolis - St.Paul Area
Joined: September 2, 2000
Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021

Get a pair of Tekton Design 4.5s for $300. Or if you want a fancy finish like Bubinga Burl Wood they cost $500. killer sounding speakers, that I have no trouble driving with my SET amps. 45, 2A3, 300B - And they can fill my large room with music, if you don't get carried away. They are not 'party' speakers.

They offer a 30 day return policy as well, so you try them out and return them if you don't like them. Here is a picture of mine. They are 17 inches tall.




 

RE: High Efficiency Monitors, posted on September 21, 2010 at 07:43:49
Paul Folbrecht
Audiophile

Posts: 1417
Location: Midwest
Joined: June 30, 2006
 From both my measurements and direct comparison with other speakers, the Audio Note Kit 3 AN/E HE is about 95 dB/W and easily drivable with a 2W 45 SET in a large room. More power = more dynamics but the 45 does fine.

AN/Es have too much bass for a small room, though, and I understand the smaller models are not as efficient.

Did the OP give a price range?? No way to give any advice without that.

 

RE: High Efficiency Monitors, posted on September 21, 2010 at 09:29:24
theaudiohobby
Audiophile

Posts: 4674
Joined: January 16, 2003
 Very interesting measurements were those in-room or anechoic? The Audio Note J/Spe as far as I can tell is closer to the 89/90dB/1W ball park. The A K/D is unsurprising closer to the 85/86 db/1w mark.

Music making the painting, recording it the photograph

 

RE: High Efficiency Monitors, posted on September 21, 2010 at 11:39:57
Paul Folbrecht
Audiophile

Posts: 1417
Location: Midwest
Joined: June 30, 2006
 It's not surprising at all given your own numbers given that the E is 2-3 dB more sensitive than the J and the HE version of the E is 3 dB more sensitive than that.

This was in room but very far in the corners in a very large room so negligible room gain.

This also jives with what one of the UK mags measured them at.

 

RE: High Efficiency Monitors, posted on September 21, 2010 at 13:51:20
theaudiohobby
Audiophile

Posts: 4674
Joined: January 16, 2003
 Not aware of any recent measurements of the E, but the last one I have of the Audio Note E(? model) by Paul Messenger in Hi-Fi Choice(UK, 2004) put the sensitivity at 92dB which more or less in agreement with John Atkinson's measurements in Stereophile. I imagine that room gain was a factor given that you measured it in a corner presumely to take advantage of corner loading. How large was the room in which you took the measurements as they jar with the other records I have on hand, the room will have to be exceedlingly large to mimic freefield conditions.

Music making the painting, recording it the photograph

 

Reference 3A MM de Capo - nt, posted on September 21, 2010 at 16:10:36
rbakedq
Audiophile

Posts: 96
Location: Westchester, NY
Joined: June 24, 2007
 ....

 

Urei 815 *, posted on September 21, 2010 at 18:47:44
eso
Manufacturer

Posts: 7843
Location: Long Beach, CA, USA
Joined: March 15, 2001






They were a carnival of American decay on parade, and they had no idea of the atrocity they had inflicted upon themselves." Henry Chinaski

 

RE: High Efficiency Monitors, posted on September 22, 2010 at 08:11:26
Hansson3
Audiophile

Posts: 399
Location: No. California
Joined: July 20, 2005
 I heard several models from both of these companies at a recent audio show in California. Both had some magic no doubt. Its real tough in a hotel room/show environment, though I would lean slightly toward the Sonist floor standers if it were me.

http://www.sonist.com/

http://www.tonianlabs.com/tonianacoustic.htm

 

RE: High Efficiency Monitors, posted on September 22, 2010 at 13:34:52
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 The AN J/Spe was measured by Hi-Fi Choice magazine (not in corners because they don't have any) as the AudioHobby noted as 89.5db or around 93db if you place them correctly in the corners.

Typically, Audio Note does not make 1.5 watt SET amps - they typically make 8-27watt SET amplifiers because the speakers are not super high sensitive.

Interestingly the AN J is about 1db lower in sensitivity but they seem to be easier loads never dipping under 5ohms while the AN E dips to 3.6. So you could make the case that the J is the easier speaker to drive.

If you go with the HE version of the woofer SEAS notes that they are 3db higher.

Hi-Fi Choice magazine also reviewed the AN E/D and Spe version and got better than 94db sensitivity with both of them. Hi-Fi Critic also measured them and got 94.5 (but I would assume these are all corner ratings if you wish to be on the safe side.

I have the J/Spe with the OTO in a 12X16 room (The OTO is a 10 watt amp but about 4 undistorted). I can't imagine anyone who values their long term hearing playing it as loud as the AN J/OTO can play and that's never playing it past halfway. If you want more volume I suppose you could get the higher sensitive drivers or a more powerful SET amp.

A nice alternative to the AN speakers might be the Teresonic single drivers. Not as much bass but more sensitive and the come in a smaller size. But to get more bass than the AN J or E while retaining both the size and the efficiency and more importantly the sound quality - I have not found it yet - or anything even in the same class. To get more bass usually means a much bigger speaker - bigger speakers seem to present more room problems, cost more money, and if you want the high sensitivity usually means being forced to buy a horn. If you go single driver you don't get the bass - and if you do get the bass the speakers are massive. Even the AN's need to be put very very hard in the corners to really show what kind of bass can be put out.

If you have more money you could look at the Trenner and Freidl RA Box. It's bigger than the AN E though but it can thunder (not super easy to drive so you would still need a powerful SET.

I believe that bass requires size - which is why I don't like most standmount speakers. The AN J and E are quite large for standmounts and even then they basically need the corner to "kind of" make the speaker the size of the wall. I like the big speaker sound in terms of dynamics and ease of presentation but I like the advantage of the small speakers sounding more cohesive. The AN J and E are compromises getting most of what the big speakers can do while retain as close tot he single driver sound as any two way I have heard is able to do.

The numbers are not all that useful. I have had plenty of speakers that are rated for example 90db and 40hz that sound wimpy on both counts while my bigger speakers are also rated as 40hz and actually sound the part in "real life" and not merely on someone's test bench.

That is why the AN E/SPE HE with a 20 watt amp at CES could pound the snot out of so many other rooms despite their triple the size 3 ways with 15 inch woofers and 400 watt SS amps. You have to actually listen and put you hand on the volume knob or have a demonstrator will gleefully turn the knob up and up. The proof as it were is in the pudding.

 

RE: High Efficiency Monitors, posted on September 22, 2010 at 18:24:00
Inmate51
 "I want to purchase an SET amp. Not sure what kind of tube yet. However, I need monitors. My room is 12'x13'. Price range for the speakers, $3-$5k (new or used). Listen to orchestral, small ensemble to R&B."

I understand the SET amp thingy. You have a small room, and ANY speaker won't need much power to fill it. Given all that...

Have you considered the Dynaudio B-something or other 8" two-way? They are fine speakers, and in your price range. Add a sub, and your 12x13 room will be one kick butt place to be. Be aware: Some bass trapping and mid absorption will be very helpful.

 

RE: High Efficiency Monitors, posted on September 22, 2010 at 18:43:35
dwkurfman
Audiophile

Posts: 45
Location: Nebraska
Joined: November 16, 2007
 If smaller is desired, modest efficiency, and it is only being pushed by a SET (not much chance of IM), then a 4425 is nice too. Wouldn't come close to breaking the budget.



 

RE: High Efficiency Monitors, posted on September 23, 2010 at 16:45:16
jackiejr
Audiophile

Posts: 4
Location: NJ
Joined: March 21, 2009
 Terrific info. I think I will go push/pull in this room for now and save the SET for a bigger room where I can utilize the proper speakers. Thanks.

 

No, Junior, go with SET in your small room. You got it backwards.(nt), posted on September 23, 2010 at 18:44:58
samtellig
 (nt)

 

RE: No, Junior, go with SET in your small room. You got it backwards.(nt), posted on September 23, 2010 at 22:39:26
Tom Brennan
Audiophile

Posts: 5854
Joined: January 2, 2000
 He doesn't have it backwards at all if he intends to go SET with larger and more efficient speakers which are more suitable for him in a larger room. Like the Altecs, EVs, Edgars, JBLs, Khorns and other large speakers we talk about here.

 

The advantage of SET in a small room is you don't need humungous speakers, posted on September 24, 2010 at 05:27:45
samtellig
 Thanks for all your insights, Tom, but I have to disagree, in part.

I look on a small room as an opportunity to do SET with reasonably sensitive small, stand-mounted speakers. Models from Tekton and Omega come to mind. And some DIY plans using Fostex drivers. Or small horns from Ed at the Horn Shoppe.

There are others -- including some models from Triangle and ProAc. Even something like the Dynaudio Excite A12 might work with 8 to 10 watts.

There IS something thrilling about SET on a pair of large speakers in a large room.

But there is also someting special about SET on a pair of small speakers in a small room.

These are different experiences. Maybe our friend should experience both.

 

Nothing like a SET on proper large horns, posted on September 25, 2010 at 07:32:40
Steyr
 Sure the wee loudspeakers can sound enjoyable off SET power nearfield or in small med rooms SET does very well with such designs but to get a SET to sound as powerful as massive SS power one needs massive horns and on such a system a SET can truly perform without the usual limitation one associate with SET amps. Seems most never even hear what there SET amp can do.

 

RE: High Efficiency Monitors, posted on September 25, 2010 at 18:08:34
jackiejr
Audiophile

Posts: 4
Location: NJ
Joined: March 21, 2009
 One more thing. Tubes with higher wattage might be an answer to drive stand-mount speakers. Tubes such as the 845 or 211. Output tubes in the say, 15 watt and lower range seem to limit speaker choice. It would be nice to have some dynamic range.

I suppose a 20-50 watt SET amp could drive speakers at 90-93 sensitivity with a friendly impedance. Are the low wattage tubes necessarily more desirable?







 

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