Streamers- Probably the worst value in audio

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Posted on April 5, 2025 at 08:01:06

1974
Audiophile

Posts: 15
Joined: January 24, 2025

I have been happily using a RP3 with a Digione HAT and a Shanti power supply for years, but I decided to give streamers a shot.

I first tried the Wiim Pro($219):

Worked good on bookshelf speakers in a bedroom system. The sound was awful compared to the RP setup in the living room system.

I decided to try the Wiim Ultra($329):

Definite step up in terms of SQ from the Wiim Pro, but still nowhere near what the RP could do.

So I decided to try the Bluesound Node Gen 4($499) that so many people were raving about and.....

It sounded like garbo compared to the RP setup.

One thing I have noticed when people are discussing the SQ of streamers is that it's hard to tell if they are judging it by the internal DAC or as a pure streamer to an external DAC. To be clear. All of my tests were done using either coax or optical to a Gustard X26 DAC.

I have no doubt that if stepped up to a higher dollar streamer I would get closer to what the RP setup is offering, but why would I spend that kind of money? The RP3/4, Digione, Shanti or other linear supply, and case can still be had for under $400. The $499(On sale from $549) Bluesound Node sounded like it was playing through memory foam couch cushions compared to the Digione.

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My phone as the source sounds as good as my DMP-A6

ppopp

19:47:00 04/22/25

RE: Streamers- Probably the worst value in audio

Goober58

08:00:21 04/07/25

The Cost of a Stand-Alone Streamer ..

cawson@onetel.com

10:35:58 04/06/25

...

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My phone as the source sounds as good as my DMP-A6

ppopp

19:47:00 04/22/25

RE: Streamers- Probably the worst value in audio

Goober58

08:00:21 04/07/25

The Cost of a Stand-Alone Streamer ..

cawson@onetel.com

10:35:58 04/06/25

Really shows how good the Pi is

Daveslater

09:36:16 04/06/25

RE: Streamers- Probably the worst value in audio

Grinnell

09:32:57 04/06/25

I recently bought a WiiM Ultra; it provides no added value for me

Feanor

04:46:21 04/06/25

Dirty Little Secret of Streamers

Jon L

09:36:56 04/06/25

RE: I recently bought a WiiM Ultra; it provides no added value for me

Kirk57

07:19:59 04/06/25

Invest $100 or so

E-Stat

07:29:34 04/06/25

Yes. Many network streamers are way over priced

AbeCollins

15:12:21 04/05/25

RE: Yes. Many network streamers are way over priced

kh6idf

16:10:30 04/05/25

First of all...

E-Stat

13:57:57 04/05/25

RE: First of all...

mike1127

23:44:24 04/26/25

RE: Streamers- Probably the worst value in audio

Gary

13:32:29 04/05/25

I have a Wiim Pro

jedrider

10:05:29 04/05/25

RE: I have a Wiim Pro

farfetched

12:31:19 04/05/25

RE: Streamers- Probably the worst value in audio

mlsstl

09:59:39 04/05/25

RE: Streamers- Probably the worst value in audio

AbeCollins

14:53:02 04/05/25

I found your card, Abe!

chocolate_lover

16:12:49 04/05/25

RE: I found your card, Abe!

AbeCollins

21:44:58 04/05/25

RE: Streamers- Probably the worst value in audio

Leo loves music

08:16:44 04/05/25

RE: Streamers- Probably the worst value in audio, posted on April 5, 2025 at 08:16:44
Leo loves music Audiophile Posts: 881 Location: NJ/NY Joined: October 14, 2021	Have you tried Bluesound Node with USB output? I have an iFi Zen streamer. I use the USB connection. However I prefer a CD transport with coax SPDIF.

RE: Streamers- Probably the worst value in audio, posted on April 5, 2025 at 09:59:39

mlsstl
Audiophile

Posts: 1215
Location: Midwest
Joined: September 1, 2015
Contributor
Since: December 16, 2024

Interesting. I've been using RPi's as streamers for many years now and have switched to WiiM devices on all four of my systems but one since the WiiM software app makes them much easier for my wife to use. Can't say that I've noticed any audible difference that I can ascribe to the streamer-only aspect. While not as cheap as a straight RPi setup, I still consider the WiiM's a very good value due to their ease of setup/use and excellent app.

Of course, I gave up my "audiophile" card years ago so I'm sure others are hearing things I don't. I just like enjoying the music.

I have a Wiim Pro, posted on April 5, 2025 at 10:05:29

jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 16057
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003

I'm OK with it except that I don't have a successful front-end strategy yet. I can stream from a PC, but my wife has Apple Music and I haven't quite figured that out yet. So, I just go down to my main system and put on my headphones. I have about 15 feet to cross to get to computer-DAC interaction and I even haven't crossed that barrier yet, so I play a CD or record instead.

(Being on topic. Streamers are where it's at and they come at all price points. Yes, what are we actually getting for our money? ??)

RE: I have a Wiim Pro, posted on April 5, 2025 at 12:31:19
farfetched Audiophile Posts: 1080 Location: Cleveland! Joined: October 13, 2010	I as well still stream using a computer and an AQ Dragonfly. I can't justify upgrading. It is significant that any kind of streaming is my 3rd source of music. And, I have a lot of music in house. Radio Paradise is nice. But that's an FM radio simulator in many ways.

RE: Streamers- Probably the worst value in audio, posted on April 5, 2025 at 13:32:29
Gary Audiophile Posts: 1347 Location: New York, NY Joined: April 21, 2000	My experience is different to yours. I've used both an RPi4 and a WiiM Ultra as streamers only in the same system with the same DAC. I just don't hear a difference.

First of all..., posted on April 5, 2025 at 13:57:57

E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 41338
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
Since: April 5, 2002

your RPI *is* a streamer. I use a similar if not identical one in the garage system.

The term refers to any device that streams digital content and does not have to possess an internal DAC nor power supply as you find with other units you mentioned. I also have a Sonore ultraRendu which also qualifies as an audio streamer. I use Roku audio/video streamers as well.

Each part of the chain can make an audible difference in my experience. :)

RE: Streamers- Probably the worst value in audio, posted on April 5, 2025 at 14:53:02

AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 49453
Location: Maidenhead Grid Square DM79
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
Since: February 2, 2002

"Of course, I gave up my "audiophile" card years ago so I'm sure others are hearing things I don't. I just like enjoying the music. "

Similar here. I was a magazine review and 'recommended components' trained audiophile for a couple decades. After not hearing what the reviewers were hearing I had to turn in my audiophile card. I shed the shackles of believing that sound quality is proportional to price and I am now free to simply enjoying the music.

Yes. Many network streamers are way over priced, posted on April 5, 2025 at 15:12:21

AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 49453
Location: Maidenhead Grid Square DM79
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
Since: February 2, 2002

Many network streamers with audiophile brand names are way over priced for what they are. Like many folks I'm not hearing huge differences between my DIY RPi3/RPi4 streamers vs some commercial units including my Sonore microRendu, Eversolo DMP-8, and even the Mac Mini used strictly as a streamer.... all tested with the same external USB DAC.

All things being equal - set up and configuration, network, lossless music files, no sample rate conversion, etc., AND the same outboard DAC, I think the WiiM and some others are absolute bargains. They might cost a fraction more than a DIY Raspberry Pi but not by much.

It's the audiophile brand names with big glossy ads with lots of marketing hype (often disguised as technical papers) that are the biggest rip-offs.

A basic network streamer doesn't produce a sound of its own. As such, it's the outboard DAC that matters the most.

RE: Yes. Many network streamers are way over priced, posted on April 5, 2025 at 16:10:30

kh6idf
Audiophile

Posts: 1554
Location: Texas
Joined: May 2, 2001

I ditched my Denon HEOS streamer / preamp when it started chopping off the first two seconds of every track. Decided to try a Raspberry Pi (4b) running PiCorePlayer next. Worked fine. At first I was using a program called Squeeze Ctrl on my Android phone as the control / display interface (cost about $5), but now I use the material skin plugin (free / donation) which is just a web page that I access from a tablet for a larger display than the phone.

I'm using a good external DAC (Bryston BDA-2) and sound quality is very good. If anything goes wrong or needs updating I can download the PiCorePlayer myself and even purchase another Raspberry Pi if needed for less than $100.

After a few years I hooked the Denon streamer back up and updated to the latest software. It still chopped off the first two seconds!

I found your card, Abe!, posted on April 5, 2025 at 16:12:49
chocolate_lover Audiophile Posts: 1729 Location: South Central Coast, California Joined: October 12, 2003	;)

RE: I found your card, Abe!, posted on April 5, 2025 at 21:44:58
AbeCollins Audiophile Posts: 49453 Location: Maidenhead Grid Square DM79 Joined: June 22, 2001 Contributor Since: February 2, 2002	Hey, pretty cool !! That certificate is even better than a card.

I recently bought a WiiM Ultra; it provides no added value for me, posted on April 6, 2025 at 04:46:21

Feanor
Audiophile

Posts: 10662
Location: London, Ontario
Joined: June 17, 2003
Contributor
Since: March 12, 2004

I tried, (and am still using), the WiiM Ultra in my main stereo system. I'm not presently using a streaming service, only listening to my own, NAS-based music files.

My conclusion is that I'd suggest a small, dedicated computer as better, cheaper option for streaming or accessing one's at-home library than streamer device. Certainly that's the case for me for accessing my NAS-based music library.

The sound from the WiiM Utra is fine for me but the Ultra provided less functionality in terms of music management than my dedicated Windows 11 computer. The Utra is OK for "popular" music but I will continue to used my computer for Classical listening.

The 'WiiM Home' Android app let's me control the Ultra from my 'phone which I couldn't do in case of my computer, but the WiiM Home app is not impressive. The 'Browse' function is far less powerful than my Foobar2000 program on the computer to get at my music files.

As I mentioned I'm not using an streaming service. The WiiM Ultra does seem to support the most popular one but I'm pretty sure that the Windows computer would support any streaming service using an Internet browser or dedicated amp.

NOT the 51st state, eh!?!

RE: I recently bought a WiiM Ultra; it provides no added value for me, posted on April 6, 2025 at 07:19:59
Kirk57 Audiophile Posts: 756 Location: Chicago's North Shore Joined: December 9, 2008	I found the WiiM user interface to be clunky and slow. I've gone back to using my old Squeezebox Touch and iPeng on the phone.

Invest $100 or so, posted on April 6, 2025 at 07:29:34
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 41338 Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	and replace the Touch (used them years ago) with a 1 GB Raspberry PI4 running piCorePlayer and enjoy improved sound quality. I continue to enjoy iPeng after many years of use. Tried Material Skin but prefer the UI and capabilities of the former.

RE: Streamers- Probably the worst value in audio, posted on April 6, 2025 at 09:32:57
Grinnell Audiophile Posts: 733 Location: Front Range Joined: December 23, 2007	I went from using a old MAcBook Pro to the Wiim Ultra. I used both with a MHDT DAC. The Wiim is so easy to use, we can control it from our phones or our computers. I got the Ultra so I can stream music from a HD. Sounds great. My wife even finds it easy to use and she hates AV setups :)

Really shows how good the Pi is, posted on April 6, 2025 at 09:36:16
Daveslater Audiophile Posts: 1046 Location: UK Joined: June 11, 2003	Really shows how good the Pi is

Dirty Little Secret of Streamers, posted on April 6, 2025 at 09:36:56
Jon L Audiophile Posts: 6283 Joined: April 6, 2000	They are all just computers. There used to be a time when USB protocol for audio was absolute poo, but today it's quite robust and even the cheapest DAC's use nice asynchronous USB protocols.

The Cost of a Stand-Alone Streamer .., posted on April 6, 2025 at 10:35:58

cawson@onetel.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2602
Joined: September 27, 2004

is likely 10% streamer electronics and 90% case, sockets, power supply and cables. Yes, a total waste of money.

However, put that streamer module into a single case together with a DAC, preamp and maybe a power amp, phono stage, headphone amp and "room correction" DSP and things start to make sense cost-wise.

This is where you find real value in hi-fi, as all you need is a pair of hugely costly (but great) speakers and you'll be in audio heaven

RE: Streamers- Probably the worst value in audio, posted on April 7, 2025 at 08:00:21

Goober58
Audiophile

Posts: 6484
Joined: November 15, 2016

I replaced an RPi3 with an RPi4 a few years back because I wanted good sound quality and didn't want to pay extra for coax. The RPi3 was great sounding music player running Linux with monitor and keyboard attached and network services disabled. But to lose the keyboard and monitor those services were needed so enter the RPi4 because I wanted the to run a browser app (Moode in this case). Everything was fine with the RPi4 as an interface to a USB hard drive music library. Unfortunately I didn't want to continue the hassle of trying to get network streaming working and last October purchased a Cambridge MXN10 streamer with a StreamMagic app and support for both network and USB inputs.

I removed the RPi4 when the MXN10 came in. I also added a new preamp and some other interconnects since then. For $400 the MXN10 was worth it just to get lossless streaming working. The only comment on sound quality is that my digital system sounds better with the MXN10 but I can't say for sure it's because of the MXN10 or the preamp/interconnect changes. I am planning to put the RPi4 back into the system as the USB hard drive music library server but until then I'm not commenting on SQ differences other than what I've already said. I am using coax outputs on MXN10 and USB for the RPi4 and the NAD 1050 DAC will be serving to select which input gets sent to the preamp.

My phone as the source sounds as good as my DMP-A6, posted on April 22, 2025 at 19:47:00

ppopp
Audiophile

Posts: 3014
Location: OR
Joined: October 10, 2002

Both are using the same DAC (Chord 2Qute).

The phone feeds an Auris BluMe Pro Bluetooth receiver (LDAC).

The DMP-A6 is connected straight into the 2Qute.

There's subtle difference in sound between the two set-ups, but its very slight. Different, not better either way.

I don't use a streaming service, I just have (mostly) FLAC music files.

I favor my phone because the app I use is the best I have tried (Pulsar).

RE: First of all..., posted on April 26, 2025 at 23:44:24

mike1127
Audiophile

Posts: 348
Joined: June 3, 2009

Yeah, everything in the chain makes a difference. With a USB DAC (Gustard R26) I tried an iFi Zen streamer, sending music over the network from my MacBook Pro, and it sounded awful.

So much better to use my aurender N100 server (that's not a streamer)

Then putting a Gustard U18 DDC between the aurender and the R26 improved things even more.

I use top quality (custom) cables such as the coax on the U18 -> R26. Have very good custom power conditioning. These things probably make my system more revealing.

So to me, everything upstream of the DAC matters: a lot. In the end, my opinion. Your experience may vary.

Digital Drive

Streamers- Probably the worst value in audio

76.27.221.94