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New DAC + Preamp from PS Audio.......

73.229.163.4
Posted on September 22, 2023 at 20:08:06
AbeCollins
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Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 Not yet available for purchase but will be soon, probably before the end of the year. I was invited to be a beta tester with an offer to buy at significant discount. But even at a big discount I think these are going to be too rich for me considering the huge number of absolutely fantastic DACs out there in the $1000 class.

And my sub $1000 Schiit Kara preamp offers huge bang for the buck not to mention outstanding sonics.

PS Audio StellarGold DAC $3995

PS Audio StellarGold Preamp $3995

My SMSL D400EX DAC $959

My Schiit Kara Preamp $699

P.S. I've owned MUCH higher-end and higher-priced gear over the years and I'm telling ya some of this "cheap stuff" is really very good!


Both In Beta Testing


PS Audio StellarGold Preamp $3999



PS Audio StellarGold DAC $3999

I still have my 7 year old PS Audio NuWave DSD DAC at $1299 MSRP. Here I thought PS Audio was coming out with another "value DAC" for their product line. I guess "value" starts much higher these days.

Time to Schitt or Chi-Fi !!

;-)




 

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RE: New DAC + Preamp from PS Audio......., posted on September 22, 2023 at 21:14:31
scriabin
Audiophile

Posts: 94
Joined: August 29, 2003
 I was surprised by the PS Audio pricing considering Okto DAC8 for about $1600 is rated Stereophile class A+. Plus, there are many competing DAC's for far less money as already noted by Abe.

 

RE: New DAC + Preamp from PS Audio......., posted on September 23, 2023 at 06:31:11
mlsstl
Audiophile

Posts: 1140
Location: Midwest
Joined: September 1, 2015
 I also received a "beta tester" offer email. I saw the prices and immediately said never-mind to myself. Also it wasn't clear if the $4K per unit price already was the discounted price or they were going to offer some undisclosed discount off that price. Guess one has to be a PS fanboi to pursue this.

 

I'm underwhelmed by these new offerings, posted on September 23, 2023 at 08:08:05
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 14010
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 I'm presuming the SQ of both items will be just fine, but I think they're
overpriced, as Abe points out. For at or under $4k, you have a choice of
a lot of excellent DACs - Schiit, Benchmark, Bryston, and Weiss to name a few - that aren't made in China. As for preamps, I'm less familiar with that situation, but I did manage to score a Pass Labs XP12 for $4200 from Reno HiFi prior to its recent closing, and I doubt the new PS Audio unit will be an improvement on that.

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

RE: New DAC + Preamp from PS Audio......., posted on September 23, 2023 at 08:50:53
DrN
Audiophile

Posts: 367
Joined: January 31, 2014
 I agree!
Forgetaboutit, PS is over priced.

 

Well, the gold trim does seal the deal n/t, posted on September 23, 2023 at 09:05:42
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15350
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003

 

Yup ................., posted on September 23, 2023 at 11:41:06
Cut-Throat
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Contributor
  Since: May 16, 2021
 Nope.



 

RE: I'm underwhelmed by these new offerings, posted on September 23, 2023 at 18:19:29
AbeCollins
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 You lucky dog! Used entry model Pass preamps are hard to find. I see a few of the dual chassis units out there but the XP-10 and XP-12 get snatched up really quick. I had the XP-10 and thought it was excellent. The XP-12 is probably as good or even better.

I'm sure the new PS Audio preamp and DAC will sound excellent but they've gotten a little too pricey for me. I was hoping to see a new PS Audio DAC in the $1500 - $2000 range but the StellarGold DAC is 2x that.



 

RE: New DAC + Preamp from PS Audio......., posted on September 23, 2023 at 18:22:25
AbeCollins
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 I believe the $4K pricing is MSRP but even if PS offered a 50% beta tester discount I don't think I would bite.

At the $4K MSRP price I see that they offer a Trade-In credit up to $1000. PS will sometimes put their products on sale at worthwhile discounts but being brand new I don't see this happening real soon.



 

RE: New DAC + Preamp from PS Audio......., posted on September 23, 2023 at 20:35:36
scriabin
Audiophile

Posts: 94
Joined: August 29, 2003
 I inquired on the Beta price --- $3200.

 

It wasn't used, posted on September 23, 2023 at 22:26:57
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 14010
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 It has a full manufacturer's warranty and the box(es) it came in appear never to have been opened.

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

RE: I'm underwhelmed by these new offerings, posted on September 24, 2023 at 04:46:55
John Elison
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  Since: January 29, 2004
 If you're looking for a preamp, I just bought a Topping Pre90 line-stage preamp from Amazon for $599. I bought it after reading Kal Rubinson's review in Stereophile where he compared it to the Pass Labs XP-32 preamp. Anyway, Stereophile gave the Topping Pre90 an "A" rating in their most recent 'Recommended Components' and it really sounds good to me, too.

Happy listening!
John Elison

 

That's an even better deal...., posted on September 25, 2023 at 14:13:59
AbeCollins
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Last time I checked Reno HiFi was low on inventory.



 

Thanks for the info..., posted on September 25, 2023 at 14:16:15
AbeCollins
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I suppose if you're in the market for a new DAC and really like PS Audio $3200 might not be so bad but for me that's pretty rich considering what I have heard in the $1000 class.



 

I had the Topping Pre90...., posted on September 25, 2023 at 14:29:20
AbeCollins
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 I had the Topping Pre90 with optional Ext90. While it sounded fine the botched design of the microprocessor / software logic hindered proper operation of the Remote Control. It drove me nuts ! Kal alluded to some Remote Control issues in his Pre90 mini review but he was (IMHO) overly polite about it. Some can overlook it but I rely on the Remote and the Topping Pre90 wasn't always responsive to commands. And no, it had nothing to do with a narrow IR beam or receiver window.

On the other hand I'm very pleased with the $699 Schiit Kara preamp that I'm presently using.

Schiit Kara balanced preamp




 

Reno HiFi has closed up shop, posted on September 25, 2023 at 20:41:13
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 14010
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 A good company, hated to see them close.

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

RE: I had the Topping Pre90...., posted on September 26, 2023 at 07:04:16
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23973
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Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 I don't seem to have any problem with my remote control. I use it exclusively to turn the unit on and off, and to change volume, and select inputs. I'm sitting very close to mine, so maybe that makes a difference, but my remote works just fine. I like the fact that I can program two volume settings.

Oh, well. Such is life!

Happy listening!
John Elison

 

RE: I had the Topping Pre90...., posted on September 26, 2023 at 10:23:39
AbeCollins
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Posts: 47305
Location: USA
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Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
Maybe they fixed it.



 

RE: Reno HiFi has closed up shop, posted on September 26, 2023 at 10:24:38
AbeCollins
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That's too bad. I bought a couple items from Reno Hifi over the years.



 

RE: I'm underwhelmed by these new offerings, posted on September 27, 2023 at 07:34:59
dgaapc7
Audiophile

Posts: 432
Joined: August 16, 2013
 Mr. Elison,
How does that compare with the Vacuum Tube Audio SP 14 line stage you liked several years ago.
I bought one and the designer threw the Sylvania tubes in for free. Now, the Pyxi phono to the SP 14 to the Mac MC 275 yields the best sound I've ever gotten from vinyl since 1970.
I had to change out the MC 275's stock tubes with nos Tele 12ax7s, nos Sylvania 12at7s, and JJ KT 88s to get there, but I've gotten to the point where I really don't feel any desire to change. Digital music sounds equally improved. Of course, money does enter into the picture.
Just curious.

LowIQ

 

RE: I'm underwhelmed by these new offerings, posted on September 27, 2023 at 09:09:13
John Elison
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 I haven't listened to my SP-14 in several years. I suspect the Topping Pre90 sounds just as good, but maybe no better. The SP-14 is an exceptional sounding preamp. If you're happy with it, I wouldn't recommend switching to the Topping.

The reason I bought the Topping is because I wanted a small preamp with topnotch sound quality. I've basically downsized my system. If this is your goal, then the Topping Pre90 might be a good choice.

Happy listening!
John Elison

 

RE: I'm underwhelmed by these new offerings, posted on September 27, 2023 at 10:18:53
dgaapc7
Audiophile

Posts: 432
Joined: August 16, 2013
 Hey thanks. I think I'll keep what I've got. Interesting that my Benchmark 3 HGC dac at about 2300 plus the SP 14 at about 2100 is in the same price range as one of the PS Audio Units. I think Abe and the other posters are right about a bit of overpricing on the PS stuff. I've liked their components, but the prices seem somewhat out of line with current price vs. performance markets.
LowIQ

 

RE: I'm underwhelmed by these new offerings, posted on September 27, 2023 at 14:48:25
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23973
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 I think you're right about the high price of some of the new PS Audio components. They're a bit overpriced in my opinion, too.

Good luck!
John Elison

 

RE: I'm underwhelmed by these new offerings, posted on September 28, 2023 at 10:28:04
kiratobias
Audiophile

Posts: 73
Location: Pacific NW
Joined: February 11, 2004
 After abandoning their dealer network a few years ago and keeping their prices the same on a direct sales model, it's obvious that Paul is maximizing profit in his old age.

 

RE: New DAC + Preamp from PS Audio......., posted on September 28, 2023 at 12:23:27
Ric Schultz
Manufacturer

Posts: 848
Joined: August 7, 2000
 What is surprising is they claim the "big deal" is using 4 DACs in parallel. There are tons of DACs out there that use DACs in parallel.....I mean tons. They state they are using the ESS9038 DAC system. A single 9038 DAC is an 8 channel DAC chip. When used in stereo mode....it has 4 DACs in parallel. There are $300 DACs on the market using the 9038 that way. There are DACs that use 2 9038s (one per channel). So that would be 8 DACs per channel. There have been several DACs under $1700 that have two 9038s inside. The Musetec (LKS) 004 has totally discrete output stages, as well. Of course, it is the sound that matters.....and maybe it is a good DAC for the money.....BUT not because it has 4 DACs in parallel.

Did you guys know you can get a fully digital amp for $1300? and for another $500 have it modded so it sounds super duper? With a fully digital amp you just need a streamer with volume control (I am using the wonky but super sounding IFI Zenstream (upgraded with my own super linear power supply). You do not need a preamp, nor a DAC. The digital amp is a POWERDAC. This thing sounds frickin amazing, better than any DAC/amp combo I have heard. Peachtree GaN 1 amp......check it out. There is a thread on audiogon.

 

RE: I'm underwhelmed by these new offerings, posted on September 28, 2023 at 17:58:28
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23973
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
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  Since: January 29, 2004
 Well, PS Audio also offers a very generous trade-in program. They pay original retail price for old audio equipment taken in trade. For example, I bought their Stellar S300 stereo power amplifier and received $600 in trade for an old Grado headphone amplifier that I bought in 1991. That reduced the price of the S300 from $1999 down to $1399, which made me happy.

Most of the other PS Audio components are a bit too expensive for me, though. I only own two of their products, the Stellar S300 stereo power amplifier and a pair of Stellar M1200 monoblocks for which I paid $4500 when they were first introduced. The M1200 monoblocks now sell for $7000 a pair, which is probably still a fairly reasonable price given their exceptional sound quality.

Unfortunately, most of their other components are priced a bit higher than I'm willing to spend, even with their generous trade-in program.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

Actually a Bit too Much BS from PS Audio, posted on September 29, 2023 at 09:06:24
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 3007
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 Ric Schultz is quite right that using two of the 8-DAC-within ES9038Pro chips has been used for quite a while. LKS, now Musetec Audio was one of the very early designers using two chips comprising 8 DACs on a side. Their newer, flagshp, model the Musetec 005 continues that, with very much upgraded power supplies and an upgraded discrete analog section. The use of two chip, eight-on-a-side DACS has migrated to many other DACS. In some cases, IMO, it's done more for marketing as the rest of the component may not measure up.

What Paul McGowan seems to be doing is obfuscating (intentionally?) the distinction between a DAC and a DAC chip within which there may be multiple DACs.

So on the website it reads, "What makes the new StellarGold DAC unique is its use of multiple parallel DACs. Each channel of the StellarGold is built by paralleling 4 high resolution digital to analog converters." This could be done, as it is in many cheap DAC units with one ESS chip.

In his latest video on the subject he speaks, in turn of, "4 DAC chip per channel," "a total of 8 DACs," "we use 4 of them for the left channel; 4 of them for the right channel," "ESS makes an Octochip; it has 8 DACs on it."

So you figure it out. I can't. Is it 1 chip, 8 DACs per channel? Or is it 4 ES9038Pro chips and 32 DACs per channel with 8 ES9038Pro chips total? We really may not know until we can have pictures of the insides of the DAC, something that PS Audo almost never reveals. For people might then complain that the casing costs far more more than everything inside.

But if I had to guess, it will be 2 chips in total, 8 DACs per channel as is done by many much less expensive DAC players. Nothing very special, notwithstanding all of McGowan's hype.

 

RE: New DAC + Preamp from PS Audio......., posted on September 29, 2023 at 10:12:06
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 38857
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Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 This thing sounds frickin amazing, better than any DAC/amp combo I have heard. Peachtree GaN 1 amp...

Which does not support USB streamers.

 

But they're 35% off !!, posted on September 30, 2023 at 19:35:12
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 47305
Location: USA
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Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 Peachtree dropped the price of their GaN-1 soon after they introduced it.

Nice idea but limited connectivity and limited appeal.


Translation: We over estimated demand and can't sell 'em




 

RE: Actually a Bit too Much BS from PS Audio, posted on October 1, 2023 at 04:12:18
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9229
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 I think the first company to do the multiple DACs was Accuphase back in the early 90s.

They had multi-multibit (MMB) where they used I think up to 16 BB PCM63K 20bit ladder DACs per channel.

Later they went to multi-delta/sigma (MDS) where they used multiple chips...this is more like what people are doing now with the ESS chips.

Aries Cerat still uses 18bit R2R chips (AD1865N) in multiples...I think the top model has 16 chips and that is a dual DAC chip for a total of 32 DACs in parallel per channel...it reduces noise and increases dynamics significantly.

 

RE: Actually a Bit too Much BS from PS Audio, posted on October 1, 2023 at 09:44:06
Mel
Audiophile

Posts: 3007
Location: New York City Area
Joined: February 21, 2001
 I'm not too familiar with old Accuphases, and don't know which you are referring to. But in any event, chips of that day were likely to be two channel. With chips like the two ES9018 chips in my old Oppo 105, a single chip was already comprised of 8 DACs. One was used to provide 4 channels in each of two sides. The other was in a section serving an 8 channel surround system.

IIRC an advantage of 2 ES9038pro chips (8 DACS per side) over one was said to be a noise reduction of 3db. I think you wouold have to go to 4 chips (16 DACs per side) to get another 3db, then 8 chips and so on.

A $60k Aires uses 20 R2R chips, 10 to a side yielding 20 DACs per side. What you actually get from the 19th and 20th DAC on a side would be an interesting speculation.

 

RE: Actually a Bit too Much BS from PS Audio, posted on October 2, 2023 at 05:55:08
AbeCollins
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Posts: 47305
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 My 1990's era Accuphase DP-65V CDP had multiple D/A chips but it's not clear if it used 4 chips per channel or 4 chips per 2-channels. I believe other Accuphase may have used even more. I purchased the DP-65V when it was already almost 10 years old.

My Cary 306/200 CDP used 8 D/A chips.

These were two of my favorite CDP's with the older Accuphase winning out by a slim margin. The Accuphase was just tiny bit more transparent. I sold the Cary and then eventually sold the Accuphase just a couple years ago.


The bottom CDP is a 5-disc Sony ES CD changer / burner for making audio CDs. I made several
"mix CD's" back then and played 5 discs in random track mode. Also played the burned CD's in
my car instead of the originals.



 

RE: Actually a Bit too Much BS from PS Audio, posted on October 2, 2023 at 07:13:57
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9229
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 It was 4 per channel.

The king from Accuphase was the DC-91:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/accuphase-dp-90-cd-transport-dc-91-da-processor

It used 16 PCM63Ks (an all-time great 20bit chip) per channel!

Aries Cerat does something similar but with tube output:

https://aries-cerat.com/kassandra-ii-reference-product-page/

 

RE: Actually a Bit too Much BS from PS Audio, posted on October 2, 2023 at 07:15:55
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9229
Location: switzerland
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 The less expensive AC Kassandra ref has 16 per channel:

https://aries-cerat.com/kassandra-ii-reference-product-page/

The Accuphase max was the Accuphase DC-91... one of the great DACs from the past.

 

RE: I'm underwhelmed by these new offerings, posted on October 2, 2023 at 12:02:48
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 47305
Location: USA
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  Since: February 2, 2002
The PS Audio top-of-the-line DACs and Preamps are pretty pricey IMHO so I was hoping they would introduce their new Stellar DAC and Preamps at prices that are more inline with their previous "value" offerings. But that's not the case so they're no longer on my radar. It's either "value DACs" from other US based companies [like Schiit] or Chi-Fi brands.



 

RE: I'm underwhelmed by these new offerings, posted on October 17, 2023 at 16:54:48
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23973
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 Well, if you ever want to try a Chi-Fi brand, I think you'd be impressed with the sound of FiiO.

Topping might be another Chi-Fi choice. I haven't tried their DAC, but my new Topping Pre90 line-stage is an outstanding performer. It received an "A" rating in Stereophile's most recent Recommended Components.

Happy listening!
John Elison

 

What need for such $4K products?, posted on October 20, 2023 at 04:42:17
Feanor
Audiophile

Posts: 10098
Location: London, Ontario
Joined: June 17, 2003
Contributor
  Since: March 12, 2004
 Take preamps: personally I might be interested in S/S preamp but $4K? Nope.

A few examples of brilliantly measuring preamp for far less money include:
  • Schiit Kara, US$700
  • Topping Pre90+Ext90, $850
  • Hypex Nilai DIY, $1475 assembled

    In other posts I've asserted there is no real need to spend >$1K on a DAC.


    Dmitri Shostakovich

     

    • Nope., posted on October 21, 2023 at 06:43:37
    Kal Rubinson
    Reviewer

    Posts: 12534
    Location: New York
    Joined: June 5, 2002
    		 It is what it was. I think that it is simply that John has better aim than does Abe and/or he sits a lot closer to the Pre90.

    Some folks have solved their RC issues with the Pre90 by either using a different (programmable) RC or adding a remote ir repeater.

    (FWIW, the RC weakness was not a biggie for me as I was using the Pre90s as fixed gain line drivers.)

     

    RE: Nope., posted on October 22, 2023 at 23:33:12
    John Elison
    Audiophile

    Posts: 23973
    Location: Central Kentucky
    Joined: December 20, 2000
    Contributor
      Since:     January 29, 2004
    		 Yeah, I sit real close, maybe one foot. However, I point it at a 45 or 50-degree angle to face of the Topping and it works just fine, every time.

    I can reach out an adjust the volume control, but is seems slower and more difficult than using the remote control.

     

    If you're 1 foot away, why do you even need a remote? ... Just reach out !.......nt, posted on October 26, 2023 at 15:38:46
    Cut-Throat
    Audiophile

    Posts: 18449
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    Contributor
      Since:     May 16, 2021
    		 nt



     

    RE: What need for such $4K products?, posted on October 27, 2023 at 03:34:02
    morricab
    Distributor or Rep

    Posts: 9229
    Location: switzerland
    Joined: April 1, 2005
    		 It's because of your lack of experience with more expensive products.

    I bet if you were to get hold of an old Sonic Frontiers DAC you would reconsider what you think you know...

     

    In fact I owned an 'Assemblage' made by an affiliate of SF, posted on October 27, 2023 at 04:54:13
    Feanor
    Audiophile

    Posts: 10098
    Location: London, Ontario
    Joined: June 17, 2003
    Contributor
      Since:     March 12, 2004



    That is, by The Parts Connection' as it was then known. Granted it wasn't an "expensive" component.

    It was decent DAC that I used for several years. It used an R2R DAC chip, if memory serves that was a PCM1702. It also did HDCD decoding. I had Parts ConneXion, (successor to Parts Connection, owned by Chris Johnson, one of the original principals of SF); that included changing op amps to OPA627's -- no necessarily an improvement based in my own subsequent experience.




    Dmitri Shostakovich

     

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