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Weekend at Harry's

206.255.211.134

Posted on February 28, 2011 at 18:30:03
E-Stat
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  Since:
April 5, 2002
When I was in college in the 70s, I worked part time at a hi-fi shop in Atlanta. While I never made much money, what I did find proved to be far more valuable over time. It was through that association I met a number of people who became good friends and mentors to this young audio enthusiast. John Cooledge (former TAS writer JWC) would periodically come by the shop and invite the guys over to his house to sample his latest audio goodies. It was then and there I developed my fondness for electrostats with his Dayton-Wrights. It is also where I met Harry Pearson. Over the years, I’ve had the opportunity to visit Sea Cliff numerous times and just got back from a long weekend there.

These visits have always been learning experiences along with providing aural, visual and culinary delights. Every time serves to recalibrate my perspective of what audio and video systems can do and each time I marvel at what is available today. I’ve been to a number of audio shows, but they really do not provide an ideal environment to get the full measure of what the best systems can do. I wish others could share in my fortune and experience the same exposure to a world that I would otherwise not really know. From the outset, what you will find is that all three of his systems are phenomenally transparent. I do not use that adjective lightly. Play any piece of music that you know intimately and you will hear detail that you’ve never heard before. You find yourself rediscovering your old friends. While the exact make up of his systems constantly change, what remains constant is the level of quality. I’m not suggesting that he alone has found the “best”, but whatever you do find delivers spectacular performance. In 1980, the IRS system defined for me the concept of “authority”. The 2000 Nola Grand Reference system was the first system I heard that truly made the walls disappear. The current Scaena system adds better coherency - especially at the bottom where the four “depth charge” subs offer no excuses for any subterranean content you care to throw at them.

What triggered this post was some observations over at planar about the new Magnepan 3.7s. He has a pair in room 2 and I spent a lot of time listening to them both with HP and Mike Hobson (of Classic Records and HRT fame) and by myself. One of my challenges has always been to understand the capabilities of his systems. To that end, I always bring a collection of CDRs to help calibrate my ears to exactly what I’m hearing. It was also in that room that I spent a lot of time evaluating the 20.1s a number of years ago. So, how good are the 3.7s? Exceptionally so. I confess to having a particular passion (fanaticism?) about coherency which is why I like full range electrostats. Magneplanar ribbon tweeters have always offered extended response and “sweetness”, but have sometimes come across to me as belonging to a different speaker than the rest of the “quasi” ribbon drivers. The 3.7s impress me as closing that gap between earlier Maggies and single driver based systems. Here you find a speaker that is exceptionally coherent throughout its range. I should mention that hearing tri-amped Tympani IIIs in 1974 was a turning point in my audio awareness. At the time, they brought me closer to realizing my perspective of how a speaker should disappear and sound like live music. 3.7 shortcomings? They are few and expected given the physical constraints of the design: the bottom octave hasn’t fully reported for duty and image height (not depth) is slightly limited as compared with what floor to ceiling line sources can do. And I found the system just a bit bright for my tastes. I will be quick to admit that I don’t find systems which are measurably flat on top to sound truly natural to me. Wendell put 1.2 ohm attenuators on the tweeters. I might opt for a slightly different value. Let me also suggest that you consider using high quality fuses. I use Hi-Fi Tuning fuses in the backplates of my Sound Labs and HP was using Furutechs in the Maggies. I think they are a must to maintain the transparency of high performance speakers of all flavors. Other than that, the speakers offer no excuses. Which - in a sense creates a bit of a quandary and illustrates a realization that I have come to understand in the past couple of years. I find that I am arguing with myself. My mentors drilled into me the concept of starting with and building a system around the very best speaker you could find that fits your set of compromises. Source and electronics are important, but it is the speaker that rules. As of late, I find that I have turned closer to becoming a “Linnie” understanding that the source is what really determines the quality of everything that follows. These speakers assert that position. What I heard was an $85k analog and digital front end driving them to an exceptionally high level of transparency. Unfortunately, my guess is that many happy buyers of them will never fully appreciate their full potential. The big Scaenas offer more scale and bass power, but speak no more faithfully to the musical truth. That is saying something for the comparatively modest price they command. They can show you all the magic that is the EMM Labs XDS1 player or a VPI Classic with a Benz using the Veloce electronics playing one of Mike’s best recordings. I heard one of those incredibly realistic sounding recordings that you’ll read about in part II of HP’s assessment of the speakers. While I wasn’t able to directly compare them to the 20.1s (which I did hear in the MC/HT system), my take is they give up only some scale and a bit of first octave bass. Bottom line is that I could find myself quite happy with a pair.

As a videophile as well, no visit would be without sampling the HT system. This is a projection system using a three gun Sony unit on a 100 odd inch screen using a very nice audio system sourced by a Krell processor, Oppo player, Edge electronics, and a mix of Magneplanar 20.1s for the front, the latest CCRs (?) for center and 3.6s in the rear supplemented with three Nola Thunderbolt subs. Picture quality and color saturation is beyond belief. What struck me most, however, was the sound. Here are two instances. One night, I played Twister with Helen Hunt and Bill Paxton and I heard something that I’ve never heard before and hope I never hear live. Have you ever been to Disney and ridden the “Tower of Terror”? If you have, you know that there is a time when your car falls without warning. While you can intellectualize that you are on a completely safe ride, there is a split second during the “fall” when your primal instincts kick in and you find yourself in true fear. I felt a similar reaction viewing the movie on the Maggie system. There were two instances where you could hear truly unsettling sounds from the shrieks and growls of extreme wind found near a tornado. The instinctual feeling of fight-or-flight kicked in for an instant and I wanted to get the hell out of there! I had never before heard those exact sounds nor felt that sensation before then. And I never want to again for real. On another night, I was channel surfing on Dish Network and found Avatar in 5.1 HD. Say what you will about the story line, but the effects and the spectacular alien landscape are worth the viewing. Later in the film, there is a scene where Jake is riding Toruk (as “Toruk Makto”) with other Ikran flying about. I have seen the film countless times in IMAX 3D, other theatres and at home and have never heard the sound of the wings beating in the air sounding so realistic and utterly natural. Truly amazing.

Finally, I always enjoy sampling the Sea Cliff area Japanese restaurants for sushi. If you enjoy such and are ever in that area, I heartily recommend going to kiraku. The salmon sake sashimi melts in your mouth and I was introduced to a new treat – thinly sliced scallop sashimi. That was positively wonderful in its delicacy. High definition sushi nicely complemented the other sensual delights.

rw

edit: For any of you who would like to be an audio reviewer, its a lot of work. Harry has a two car garage and for at least thirty years it has housed audio boxes, not his car. A French made CD player needed to be returned and he asked if I could re-box the unit. No problemo. First of all, the player had the weight of a sumo. I got the huge box and wondered why the box itself weighed so much. The answer is that inside was a metal suitcase with fitted inserts for the player and accessories. That made packing the suitcase pretty easy. It didn't, however, reduce the task of putting the combined bulk into the outer carton. It came with a clever T-handled rope and plastic sled that fit underneath the unit to assist with the hoisting. You could then pick up everything with four handles. Ideally, however, with two guys. It was then I remembered an old audio store trick and decided it would be easier to put the box on the player than doing it the other way around. Also, I moved a phono preamp from room #2 into room #3. So how much can a phono preamp weigh? When it comes in two pieces and looks like and has the heft of monoblock amplifiers, the answer is a bunch. You'll have to wait to hear about this unit.

 

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RE: Weekend at Harry's - I share in the excitement - , posted on March 9, 2011 at 14:17:54
hifimercer
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 111
Location: So. Cal
Joined: April 28, 2005
I, admittedly, haven't read all the responses here, but those here that know me know that meeting Harry as a teenager changed the course of my life (and some would argue for better or for worse - LOL - leading me to a life spent in Hifi and the music business).

I will say this:
He has, for me, continued to be both a great friend and teacher, and he believed in me back at a time where I could have easily slipped into a whole other lifestyle (he believed in my intelligence, which back then was simply being wasted). My own family did not demand as much as he did in terms of my effort, and my integrity (say what you will, he impacted my life for the better in terms of my work ethic, which brought me to work for the great Arif Mardin at Atlantic Records - whom I miss with all my heart).

I was just back in Sea Cliff myself a few weeks ago, spending time in Rm 2 - and just when I thought I'd heard mind-bending things in the past, I was astounded yet again.

I consider myself both privileged and lucky to call him my friend - and I will keep fighting for Good Sound until the say I die! I'm so glad a friend sent me the link to this post!!!!

(and I realize I need to update my info here, so my apologies if my info is dated).

Yours in Sound,

Michael Mercer


The Daily Swarm.com
Positive Feedback Online
Trash Menagerie

 

Is it just me, or have you written more than what I've seen from HP in TAS lately?, posted on March 3, 2011 at 18:52:26
DustyC
Audiophile

Posts: 963
Joined: November 4, 2000
Really, I miss the multi page insights from when he ran the mag. I don't know why Harley doesn't let him run.

 

You'll be happy to know, posted on March 4, 2011 at 09:08:34
E-Stat
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that part two of the 3.7 review is longer than what I wrote. It should be in print soon. :)

rw

 

He seems pretty unhappy, posted on March 3, 2011 at 19:24:53
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
A year ago, he was talking like he was going to start a new magazine. Any word on that?

 

RE: He seems pretty unhappy, posted on March 4, 2011 at 08:29:03
I've been hearing the same rumour for years. Just guessing, but financial backing for such a venture has to be hard to come by these days. Plus all people do is bash the few audio mags we have left now.

 

Good point, posted on March 4, 2011 at 08:47:40
josh358
Industry Professional

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Between the recession, a shrinking high end, and the challenges the Internet presents to print media, it does sound like a hard sell.

OTOH, I think he'd have a guaranteed subscriber base among those who miss the old TAS.

 

If anything, HP would..., posted on March 4, 2011 at 14:07:09
mkuller
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Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
...probably start an internet-based publication - at least that would be my guess, if he ever decides to do something on his own.

It would take less capital, but would his ageing fan base follow?

And how would he derive an income from it.

Writing for TAS IS his day job.

 

Hmmm, posted on March 4, 2011 at 15:54:44
josh358
Industry Professional

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I'm a sample of one, but I'd definitely subscribe to a publication of his.

That's a start, anyway. And I suspect though can't be sure that I'm far from alone. After all, there are still a lot of folks willing to pay for subscriptions to Stereophile and TAS, and judging by what I've read here, others miss his stewardship of TAS.

On the other hand, I have no idea of how he could make a financial go of Internet-based publication. Perhaps a paid newsletter (I know he was contemplating that at one point) in PDF form?

 

Just how much..., posted on March 5, 2011 at 10:30:49
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
...would people be willing to pay for an HP publication?

Remember Martin Collom's HiFi Critic?

No ads and something like $125 a year.

Is it still in business?

 

Just looked it up, posted on March 5, 2011 at 11:22:18
josh358
Industry Professional

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Joined: February 9, 2010
and it seems to be:

http://www.hificritic.com/subscribe/order.aspx

It's business model and publication schedule seem very much like those of the original Absolute Sound. I wonder how many copies they sell?

 

RE: Just looked it up, posted on March 5, 2011 at 11:33:10
John Atkinson
Reviewer

Posts: 4045
Location: New York
Joined: November 24, 2003
>I wonder how many copies they sell?

I am told that current circulation is around 1000.

It must be low as I was interviewed for a recent issue of The HiFi Critic and said some
things that might have raised some eyebrows. However, I didn't get any email about it.

John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile

 

RE: Just looked it up, posted on March 6, 2011 at 10:56:24
josh358
Industry Professional

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Whoa, now you have me curious. If I had $150 I didn't want, I'd go see what you said.

So $150,000 gross? I don't know anything about the economics of magazine publishing, but it sounds like it could support HP.

 

RE: Just looked it up, posted on March 6, 2011 at 15:04:24
John Atkinson
Reviewer

Posts: 4045
Location: New York
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>So $150,000 gross? I don't know anything about the economics of magazine publishing,
>but it sounds like it could support HP.

Except that with the HiFi Critic, printing, paper, and distribution costs eat away at that
gross. You need to publish on the Web, but then you run up against the mantra that
"content wants to be free." Even an icon like HP wouldn't be able to charge $150/year
for a downloadable newsletter.

You asked in another recent message:

>Has there been piracy of Stereophile and TAS? Of course, with their subscription prices
>being what they are, they're almost free; a newsletter might be a more tempting target.

Even though our subscription price is low and we make most of Stereophile's content
available on our website free of charge (though not "day and date"), we do suffer a
piracy problem. Every issue is available from bit torrent sources within hours of it being
mailed to subscribers. One estimate was that as any as 15,000 pirated copies of
Stereophile (complete with ads) are downloaded each month. :-(

John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile

 

$150/yr for a downloadable jnewsletter?, posted on March 7, 2011 at 09:25:44
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
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"Even an icon like HP wouldn't be able to charge $150/year for a downloadable newsletter."

Probably true. I pay $129/yr. for a downloadable Wall Street Journal.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

Where do they get it from?, posted on March 6, 2011 at 17:18:22
Charles Hansen
Manufacturer

Posts: 6984
Joined: August 1, 2001
I downloaded one just to see what it was, and it was the real deal. Everything was perfect. Somebody with access to the original computer (PDF?) files put it out there. Where is the leak?

 

RE: Where do they get it from?, posted on March 7, 2011 at 15:09:35
Posts: 881
Location: North America
Joined: April 16, 2005
Hi,

I actually about this a number of months ago. My thoughts are in an article linked below called "The Future of Print Magazines is Online and Free." In my opinion, stopping pirating will be as successful as what's happening with the music industry. I know a few publishers and all their content has ended up online. In one instance, THREE WEEKS before the newstand date!

DS @ SoundStageNetwork.com

 

RE: Where do they get it from?, posted on March 7, 2011 at 07:12:17
John Atkinson
Reviewer

Posts: 4045
Location: New York
Joined: November 24, 2003
>I downloaded one just to see what it was, and it was the real deal.
>Everything was perfect. Somebody with access to the original computer
>(PDF?) files put it out there.

Yes, it looks as if the pirated version is prepared from the same hi-rez
pdfs we send to the printer and Zinio. These are not cheesy scans from
the paper magazine.

> Where is the leak?

Our management is investigating because the leak must either be from
the pre-press department or the printer. All we have found out so far
is that the sources for the pirated version(s) are sites in Spain and
the Ukraine. While these sites have sent "cease and desist" letters,
enforcing copyright in those countries is, I am told, very difficult.

John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile

 

RE: Where do they get it from?, posted on March 7, 2011 at 08:44:15
Charles Hansen
Manufacturer

Posts: 6984
Joined: August 1, 2001
>> Our management is investigating because the leak must either be from
the pre-press department or the printer. <<

Shoot, that's easy. Just send Luigi out to break a few kneecaps.

Or if you want to be civilized, you go to both places and tell them if this happens again that you will switch companies. They will find the guy for you and fire them, as losing Stereophile would also mean losing forty other titles. Money talks...

 

yes it does, posted on March 7, 2011 at 18:12:21
trav
Audiophile

Posts: 2218
Joined: January 25, 2003
My friend works (and now supervises) pre-press for a large printer in Colorado. Threats of lost business are taken very seriously, especially as a result of security concerns or employee mistakes.

 

RE: Where do they get it from?, posted on March 6, 2011 at 18:43:39
With all the highly classified material that gets distributed it is clear that nothing would be sacred. It is a shame that hard work gets pirated. It would be fitting that those doing the pirating would be caught and processed to the full extent of the law, but I would not bet on it after what we all see going on now.

 

How 'bout we split the cost?, posted on March 6, 2011 at 14:35:24
Just kidding. But if there were pictures involved, I'd seriously consider it.

:-)

 

Pictures..., posted on March 6, 2011 at 17:03:10
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
...of what - Harry sitting there contemplating the sound?

Of the set up in his rooms?

Maybe of his set-up man tweaking the equipment?

 

Those rich audiophiles..., posted on March 5, 2011 at 15:37:02
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
...are too busy sailing around their winter homes in the islands to get around to emailing you.

 

"Christian Distributivism" is the "Business Model", posted on March 5, 2011 at 08:37:20
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7808
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
A little witticism there...

As far as "making a financial 'go' of it."

Christian Distributivism has usually worked when there is a rich patron in the background who provides the land or seed capital or whatever else is needed. Not that the Guild members don't work hard; it's just that the world doesn't value their works sufficiently to make a financial 'go' of things. Hence the need for sponsorship.

E.g. (even though it was not explicitly Christian), Elbert Hubbard's community Roycroft only worked because the workers received room and board and little if any money.

40 years ago you could make a living on a limited-circulation printed, mailed newsletter--if the information was timely and valuable. Today, things are quite different. Nearly everybody in the target demographic has a scanner and email. Keeping one's finger in the dike is not a realistic option. E.g., Stereophile's website gets more unique visitors in a month than printed copies get mailed. I usually get two rounds of letters to the editor: the first wave that comes when the print issue hits; the second wave (oftimes more rude and making less sense) when my column goes up on the web for free reading a month or so later.

When I was between TAS and Stereophile and therefore owed loyalty only to myself, I discussed with another writer the economics of a print-only newsletter that would not accept advertising. Our considered opinion: Impossible--regardless who the editor in chief was. Not enough people are willing to fork out fifty bucks in advance for six or eight newsletters, even if the newsletter were written by Shakespeare and copy-edited by T.S. Eliot.

So, OK, you have to have advertising. Oops. The same people selling ads and writing reviews? Are you serious? So you have to have an ad salesperson, and he or she needs to feed himself or herself and perhaps a family, and so it goes. You also need a business/copyright lawyer, and insurance, etc.

So it comes back to, the only way the craftguild business model works is to have a voluntary or involuntary "patron" or patrons. At one point I had been told by someone who should know that AMM's cumulative losses were in the vicinity of $6 million, although that person said in the same breath that post-kicking HP upstairs, the magazine was making money on a cash-flow basis. A magazine that accepts advertising, has had at least one prominent ethical imbroglio, is not written by Shakespeare, and is not copyedited by T.S. Eliot.

I am not making these points to run anyone down or to be a wet blanket. It is possible that the world would be a better place if HP had his own print newsletter (or .pdf). But barring someone who is willing to stand him a few years' living expenses, and pay the printer and the post office and the layout person, and for circulation development ($100,000 is a drop in the bucket right there) etc., and be willing to lose it all, I don't see it happening, certainly not on a pay-as-you-go basis.

The other factor of course, is that HP's appeal is primarily to men who are at least 50 years old and who have been in the hobby for at least a decade, and that is a demographic that is thinning out rapidly. And a business model that includes making HP more relevant to kids wearing earbuds makes as much sense as a business model of teaching Maria Callas to sing Motown... .

John Marks

 

RE: "Christian Distributivism" is the "Business Model", posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:30:16
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
If I had a spare million or two, I'd bankroll it myself. Unfortunately, my 747 needs an overhaul.

Has there been piracy of Stereophile and TAS? Of course, with their subscription prices being what they are, they're almost free; a newsletter might be a more tempting target. OTOH, as you point out, an HP newsletter would appeal mostly to us boomers. I'm not sure there are many middle-aged audiophiles out there who are into posting pdf's on torrent sites. I can see people sharing the occasional issue with a friend, but that happens with print, as well.

Anyway, you know far more about the practicalities of magazine publishing than I do. I know that HP started TAS on a shoestring, and marketed it with a classified ad in the back of Audio. But I suspect that sort of bootsrap operation is easier when you're young and not particularly worried about keeping a roof over your head. OTOH, I think HP's name recognition would be a huge advantage. Sure, he'd be appealing to an older demographic, but word spreads quickly in the Internet era and he's a known quantity. And I don't think he'd have to imitate the breadth of coverage of Stereophile and TAS in a new publication. Rather, I was thinking of their underground days as the model. As you pointed out, his demographic -- really, the entire high-end audio demographic -- is fading, at the same time as the Internet is competing with print publications. It's hard to see how HP could start a large, mainstream publication in such a market. This wouldn't be for kids, who I'm increasingly convinced will have to develop their own high end from the technology they use, but rather for established audiophiles.

But, again, you know much more about the practicalities than I do. I'm just someone who wishes he had a better platform than his few pages in TAS.

 

1973 vs. 2011... . (and a COOL IMAGE), posted on March 6, 2011 at 13:26:12
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7808
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
I don't disagree with anything you say, I just have a slightly different perspective.

HP started TAS in 1973 though he might have started publicity in 1972. You must remember that back then it was before: personal computers, video games, portable phones (except for the very wealthy). Videocassettes were three years in the future, and took about 10 years to become widespread. Cable TV had very little of high quality on it, it was mostly for people who had bad TV reception as opposed to an enhancement over broadcast TV in terms of programming.

On Tuesdays, new LPs would hit the store shelves. People listened to FM radio to learn about music they would want to buy. There was not much talk radio, and new acts and non-commercial music still had a chance because mega-networks like Clear Channel didn't exist. College kids wanted to have the best stereo on their dorm corridor.

An important aspect of it was, I am totally serious, social mores about dating and mating and marriage. If a girl went up to a guy's room and all there was was a bed, she might be labelling herself as a girl of easy virtue. But if there was a nice stereo and a Miles Davis or Glenn Gould LP, they were cultured. "Aspirational" magazines such as Playboy, starting in 1959, would run several features a year (main article, Holiday gift guide, Father's Day gift Guide) that implanted the idea that "the good life" included a stereo. Not today. Today, it's the freak-show aspect: look how much that stuff costs.

I attach a link to my Stereophile AWSI that puts forth the notion that the Golden Age of Hi-Fi (1946-circa 1992) was in large part the result of a one-off demographic and social confluence. Things are different now. The largest change being that listening to music used to be a social event (I will try to load an image--yes, from the 78 rpm era),



a shared opportunity to sit down and shut up and pay attention to music, whereas now it is something you do alone while doing something else, like reading your text messages or treadmilling.

Audio magazine, of course, is out of business. But let's say that when HP ran classified ads in Audio, its circulation was 300,000. If he got 2% of those to subscribe (a very high response to a direct-marketing campaign), he had 6,000 subscribers. Let's say TAS has 30,000 subscribers today. 2% of those is 600, which is not enough to make a go of it. All those numbers are total guesses. Perhap a new HP magazine would attract 3,000 subscribers, but I have a lot of trouble believing that it could attract 10,000 subscribers, especially if it was priced high enough to run without ads. Because a lot of people yearn for the TAS of old without ads, but I doubt they want to pay $125 or $150 a year!!!!!

Another factor is that compared to 1973, when startup audio companies were the rule, and computers were only at universities and many of the loudspeaker designs were laughable by today's standards, putting together a good stereo was hit or miss, while today, the sound of entry-level components is good and most high-end equipment is rather wonderful. Lots of people who passionately care about music have bought their "final" stereo. "The hobby" in that regard is a victim of its own success. We don't need a New Moses to lead us out of the wilderness and into the promised land.

All the best,

JM



 

RE: 1973 vs. 2011... . (and a COOL IMAGE), posted on March 6, 2011 at 19:43:20
lord addleford
Audiophile

Posts: 1095
Location: new england
Joined: July 5, 2005
JM- your understanding of the social piece may be accurate for a limited demographic during the late '40s,'50s and early '60s, , but is sorely inaccurate for the youth/musical culture of the '60s onward. I have no idea about what world you inhabited during the '60s, but it is non representational of the youth culture world inhabited by that piece of the baby boomers.

 

RE: 1973 vs. 2011... . (and a COOL IMAGE), posted on March 6, 2011 at 17:17:14
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
Yes that is indeed a cool image, you don't see beer glasses like that much anymore... Was that Eico equipment?

"Golden Age of Hi-Fi (1946-circa 1992)"

Exactly, the Hi-Fi boom was congruent with the baby boom so there's a whole glut of us with the same fascination that enjoy chatting about it on AA. Since we were formed by the unusual conjunction of successfully completing a war and the commercialization of the new field of electronics it's probably just hubris to think that subsequent generations should share our tastes.

Even though we haven't done so well in the war department, to this day Electronics continues to be a large driver of culture.

But it's not OUR Electronics and the hard core yet cling to their tubes, records and horn speakers and will be probably be laid to rest with a 6SN7 in each hand and a mint copy of the Dark Side of the Moon on their chests. Boy will the anthropologists have a hay-day with that one. "It's got to be some sort of religious/sex fetish thing, it's just gotta be!".

And of course they're right...

Regards, Rick

 

Great posting, thanks., posted on March 6, 2011 at 17:59:28
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7808
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
The image is from a stock art company, and it is indexed under "Food and Drink."

Yes, I am sure it is Eico, but it was not an Eico ad. It could be cheesecake-free calendar art.

JM

 

RE: Supposed COOL IMAGE, posted on March 17, 2011 at 14:09:45
cdb
Audiophile

Posts: 2948
Joined: April 6, 2001
Two white guys in suits, three white women in prom gowns.

Some hack artist's idea of the good life back then in a cheesy Rockwell imitation. Too bad he forgot the loudspeakers...

 

RE: Hmmm, posted on March 5, 2011 at 05:47:08
soulfood
Audiophile

Posts: 3725
Joined: August 9, 2001
It's apparent from the start, the road to this projected happiness is paved with conflicts.

 

RE: Weekend at Harry's, posted on March 3, 2011 at 17:31:52
Pat D
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I'm happy that you enjoyed your visit with HP at Sea Cliff. He must have lots of good equipment on hand, and I understand he has an extensive collection of recordings. HP gave the Keynote Address at RMAF 2009. He seems to be a friendly and intelligent person. I'm sure he is very hospitable.
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"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

RE: Weekend at Harry's, posted on March 2, 2011 at 18:15:18
I trust your evaluation. People should take note. HP gets results that few achieve. His standard is significantly higher than most. Some people might be put off by the astrology or the weed.

 

HP still the father of the high end., posted on March 2, 2011 at 16:09:33
ruxtonvet
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HP is still the most honest golden eared reviewer out there. All of us who enjoy music on a high end system owe him our thanks.

 

He came on a little late for that, didn't he?, posted on March 2, 2011 at 18:18:27
Pat D
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In any case, I find it a little strange to give such a title to any audio reviewer. I'd look to Paul Klipsch, Peter Walker, Edgar Villchur, and others who made advances in design and/or manufactured excellent equipment.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

It is you who has difficulty reading, posted on March 3, 2011 at 06:02:26
E-Stat
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The reference was to the high end, not run of the mill.

rw

 

Would you actually call a reviewer 'father of the high end'?, posted on March 3, 2011 at 06:14:22
Pat D
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GMAB
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

Yes, "The High End" is a marketing segment created by peddlers, not engineers or scientists, posted on March 3, 2011 at 10:33:02
Tony Lauck
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"The High End" is a marketing category. It is entirely possible that HP was very important in the creation of this marketing segment.

It is questionable whether the quality of music that most of us listen to is better because of the existence of this marketing segment. It is entirely possible that without this artificial market segmentation the overall quality of run of the mill equipment (previously called Hi-Fi, now called mid-fi) would be better. And well before this artificial marketing segmentation there were niche products that were priced out of the range of all but a fraction of audiophiles.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

Not true then..., posted on March 3, 2011 at 11:56:49
mkuller
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...in the early 1970s, High End were the manufacturers who were focused on producing "musically accurate" audio reproduction equipment.

Like Magneplanar, Marantz, Citation, Audio Research, Quad, Infinity and Levinson to name a few.

As opposed to the mass market Japanese rack systems, if you recall.

The early days of solid state electronics were no friend to music.

Perhaps today your comment might be more applicable.

 

RE: Not true then..., posted on March 3, 2011 at 13:34:21
Pat D
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My old Kef 104 speakers came out in 1973, I believe. the year TAS began. I can't see that HP and other reviewers had much to do with it. It was one of the speakers using computer aided designs.

Which is part of my point. I can't see that HP and most other equipment reviewers had much of anything to with advances in audio. Julian Hirsch at least encouraged manufacturers to provide accurate specifications for electronics.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

"I can't see that HP and other reviewers had much to do with it.", posted on March 3, 2011 at 15:43:26
E-Stat
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Correct. HP reviewed in in issue 8 and found its upper midrange peak unbearable, despite being non-boxy sounding and having good imaging. Computer analysis can as quickly create problems when you make the wrong assumptions as it can provide solutions. Early integrated circuits such as the LM301 were also computer designed - and horrible sounding!

rw

 

RE: "I can't see that HP and other reviewers had much to do with it.", posted on March 3, 2011 at 16:22:02
Pat D
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That proves HP didn't know what he was talking about-either that or you misidentified the speaker as Kef had later speakers which have 104 in the designation, such as 104.2, etc. Aside from several reviewers and myself, let's see what Paul Barton had to say about it.

"Barton: Yes. I would definitely agree with that. Can I talk about other speakers? It's one that no longer exists, but the original KEF R104aB was very flat on-axis. But they crossed the tweeter over way too high. If you put a pair in a room that had reflections, it was a very laid-back speaker. Very distant-sounding. Very pleasant.

Atkinson: Because of the lack of presence-region energy in the room?

Barton: Because the total energy wasn't there. The 104 was a very well-respected loudspeaker, and quite frankly worked well in a dead-end/live-end situation, which was at that time the way KEF designed loudspeakers. But it was very room- and placement-sensitive."

I agree with Barton's remarks on the Kef 104aB (and the earlier version, the 104). Upper midrange peak my foot!


-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

You know what, posted on March 3, 2011 at 18:13:04
E-Stat
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as Kef had later speakers which have 104 in the designation, such as 104.2, etc.

You're entirely correct. After the original 104, next came the 104ab. Let's review your comments to which I responded:

My old Kef 104 speakers came out in 1973

You referred to the 104. I too, referred to a review in 1976 of the 104. We both refer to the 104.

"Barton: Yes. I would definitely agree with that. Can I talk about other speakers? It's one that no longer exists, but the original KEF R104aB was very flat on-axis.

You and I spoke of the 104 while Barton speaks of a later revision called the 104ab. Was there any difference?

It would appear that the change involved the crossover. Apparently, they realized their earlier error.

I agree with Barton's remarks on the Kef 104aB

Ok, if that is the case (as opposed to what you originally wrote), then you and HP are referring to different revisions of the speaker. Did that clarify your confusion?

rw

 

RE: You know what, posted on March 3, 2011 at 19:26:09
Pat D
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The difference between the Kef 104 and Kef 104aB is the crossover. After 17 nor 18 years, one of the crossovers capacitors went, so I had the distributor put in the 104aB crossover. I am quite familiar with both versions of the speaker. I certainly don't need HP to tell me how they performed.

The Kef 104 and Kef 104aB versions had a mid-range control, plus or minus 2 dB. The crossover was at 3 kHz. This of course means that the off axis is not as flat as with many modern speakers.

With the Kef 104, I turned the midrange control down to the -2 position. With the Kef 104aB, I turned it up to the +2 position, which Richard C. Heyser considered to give the flattest response. I couldn't compare them directly, of course, but I think I preferred the older 104.

If HP said there was a peak in the upper midrange of the Kef 104, I can only say he didn't know what he was talking about. The original Kef 104 was very flat in the listening window, no peak in the upper midrange. Indeed, peakiness in the upper midrange is something I particularly dislike. It was a somewhat distant sounding speaker, but I like that. If HP thought the sound was too forward, he could have turned the midrange control down.


-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

That's what make the reviews interesting..., posted on March 4, 2011 at 10:58:19
mkuller
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...everybody has their own opinions.

And that's what I believe this forum was set up to discuss.

 

RE: That's what make the reviews interesting..., posted on March 4, 2011 at 17:14:22
Pat D
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I watched the videos of HP's Keynote addresses to RMAF 2009 and heard him expound on observational listening, something you have never managed to explain. If E-stat's remarks accurately reflect HP's review of the Kef 104, it didn't work all that well.

I think HP's keynote speeches were best on marketing and reaching out to those using the new digital technologies.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

If you don't understand ..., posted on March 4, 2011 at 17:49:38
mkuller
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...observational reviewing from my past posts about it, then you haven't been paying attention.

I've always described it as being an objective process, comparing what you hear to a reference - live music - and describing the differences.

Then adding a subjective component to it - whether it fits with your personal listening biases or not, i.e. do you like how it sounds.

I haven't seen that clip of HP in a couple of years, so I don't recall what he said about it.

 

"Trust Your Ears", posted on March 6, 2011 at 07:03:08
kerr
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Still the best advice in audio. How a component is supposed to sound pales in comparison to how it actually sounds.

 

Straw man., posted on March 6, 2011 at 20:35:57
Pat D
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"How a component is supposed to sound pales in comparison to how it actually sounds."

Who says otherwise?

Wilma Cozart Fine was talking about making recordings, not reviewing equipment. I have no idea what sort of controls she used to remaster the old Mercury recordings for CD or whether she ever used blind testing. I suspect any differences she was concerned with were well above thresholds.


-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

Actually, not a man of any composition, posted on March 7, 2011 at 06:42:39
kerr
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I was referring to HP's speech that you linked. If the measurements crowd claim that a component should sound like one thing and it sounds like another, there's a problem with the measurements somewhere.

Sorry - how did Wilma Cozart Fine enter into the discussion? If you made an earlier point about her, I missed it.

 

RE: Actually, not a man of any composition, posted on March 7, 2011 at 08:24:05
Pat D
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HP quoted Wilma Cozart Fine in one of the Keynote addresses.

Measurements by themselves do not say anything about audibility. To do that, they must be correlated with controlled listening tests to find some sorts of thresholds.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

Ah - thanks!, posted on March 7, 2011 at 09:14:55
kerr
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Went back and caught that the second time around.

>Measurements by themselves do not say anything about audibility. To do that, they must be correlated with controlled listening tests to find some sorts of thresholds.<

Aside from our definitions of "controlled", we agree.

 

Julian Hirsch at least... , posted on March 3, 2011 at 15:25:28
mkuller
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...encouraged manufacturers to provide accurate specifications for electronics.>

Unfortunatley the measurements at that time had very little to do with the way the components sounded playing music.

There is only a little more correlation today.

The top reviewers of the day never claimed to advance audio technology and design - only to identify the equipment which was able to sound the most like music and describe their positive traits and shortcomings with terms we have come to take for granted today.

HP coined "soundstaging" and "dynamic contrasts" among many other terms.

His reviews were very influential in the design of high end products - manufacturers took his criticism and modified their equipment to do a better job of reproducing music.

And as he has mentioned, he helped Marantz and Dahlquist voice the DQ-10 loudspeaker in his room.

A classic speaker and my first entry into high end.

 

That explains much. , posted on March 4, 2011 at 08:08:43
regmac
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" And as he has mentioned, he helped Marantz and Dahlquist voice the DQ-10 loudspeaker in his room."

That would explain why TAS has always gushed over the DQ-10, going so far as to rate it one of "The 12 Most Significant Loudspeakers of All Time" (TAS 205). A bit self-serving, don't you think?

 

Your arrow missed the mark!, posted on March 6, 2011 at 19:21:52
Charles Hansen
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>> TAS has always gushed over the DQ-10, going so far as to rate it one of "The 12 Most Significant Loudspeakers of All Time" (TAS 205). A bit self-serving, don't you think? <<

I think that the DQ-10 was deserving of the award. On the other hand there were several choices that were obviously self-serving. (Speaker-of-the-month-club choices from Jonathan "Sticky Fingers" Valin that needed a little more bolstering than just his pandering reviews.)

 

Let me relate my experience..., posted on March 4, 2011 at 10:34:11
mkuller
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...with the DQ-10s.

I had never heard of TAS in 1977 when I was shopping for a new pair of speakers.

I probably listened to 10 different ones in my price range but nothing really impressed me - even with a lot of the stores using "Time" from the DSOM, which was the "in" demo record.

Someone told me about a new speaker, the Ohm (Model A?), which was at a local Federated Store (big box).

So I went there to hear it and was let into their expensive equipment room.

A pair of Dahlquist DQ-10s sitting there had been left playing some Latin percussion music - it was coming from behind and in between the speakers there in space - it sounded like the instruments were right there in front of me. I'd never heard anything like it.

The guy went on to demo the Ohms and while they had a lot of bass, it was the DQ-10s I ended up buying.

Easily one of the 12 most significant loudspeakers of all time and a classic. There is still a lot of interest in them on the used market over 30 years later.

Self-serving, nah - while HP gave them a hand in voicing the speaker in his room, he did the exact same thing with every review he wrote, whether the manufacturer took his advice or not.

 

Just having you on, Mike., posted on March 4, 2011 at 11:06:12
regmac
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As I’ve pointed out on here before, I owned the DQ-10s for eleven years and purchased the speakers over the strenuous objections of the stereo shop’s owner who was a Bose 901 devotee.

 

Funny..., posted on March 4, 2011 at 14:08:10
mkuller
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...I would have guessed you were more of a Bose guy.

 

"A bit self-serving, don't you think? ", posted on March 4, 2011 at 08:47:59
E-Stat
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No. That would be true only if that knowledge had been made common AND if TAS (or HP) had some stake in the success of the speaker. Neither criteria is met. Go back to the issue and review who made the recommendation. Hint: it wasn't HP. Seems to me that even thirty years later, you were unaware of that involvement. FWIW, I know of at least three other stories of designers trying out and refining designs at Sea Cliff. I suspect there are many more. The public is simply unaware of them. Which is just as well.

What's to complain about when the outcome is improved product refined through the feedback of truly discriminating ears observing the results on a truly discriminating system?

rw

 

RE: "A bit self-serving, don't you think? ", posted on March 4, 2011 at 11:01:13
regmac
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The king paints his masterpiece and his subjects like it; a prudent policy in every kingdom. In fairness, Stereophile was also somewhat complimentary, listing the DQ-10 #92 in its “Hot 100 Products,” a 40 year retrospective of what JA termed the “most important” products. Of course, Sterophile’s compilation is dated November 2002 while TAS’s “top 12” speaker survey *appears* to be dated Sept. 2010. Long live the king!

 

RE: Julian Hirsch at least... , posted on March 3, 2011 at 15:34:40
josh358
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The concept of the sound stage had, I think, a huge positive effect on speaker design. Before HP called attention to it, we treated stereo as essentially a lateral phenomenon, despite the fact that the enhanced reproduction of depth is discussed in Blumlein's original patent. Such imaging as occurred was almost accidental, what with enclosure diffraction, asymmetrical driver arrangements, poor speaker placement and acoustics, and bad polar response. And yet when I first heard it, imperfectly realized in a friend's KLH-9's, I realized right away that an entire dimension had been missing from my listening. There followed a period of frantic and ultimately failed experimentation in an attempt to get my own speakers, a pair of AR-11's, to do the same trick.

So much for the measurements of the time! It was an important lesson in what counts.

 

RE: Julian Hirsch at least... , posted on March 3, 2011 at 17:20:33
Tony Lauck
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My old high school audio buddy, J. Peter Moncrief, had a pair of KLH-9's at his apartment in Boston in the 60's and I was amazed at the depth. But getting good imaging was nothing new, we used to take our KLH-6's to the chapel and play prerecorded tapes (around 1960). We couldn't get enough volume though to match a large orchestra in this room that would seat several hundred people. But the quiet portions were pretty realistic if you didn't mind tape hiss.


Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: Julian Hirsch at least... , posted on March 3, 2011 at 17:59:57
josh358
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AFAIK, good imaging did happen, as evidenced by Blumlein's original patent, but it seems to have been a pretty much hit-or-miss affair. Forex, I gather the KLH-6's were symmetrical two-ways, but my AR-11's were asymmetrical -- midrange and tweeter side by side, but not mirror imaged. Which caused problems with crossover lobes, too, something that wasn't understood until a few years later. Also, I don't think the deleterious effect of early reflections on imaging was understood. Loudspeakers were regularly placed against walls, when pulling them only a few feet out into the room would have improved things dramatically. I also suspect that edge diffraction and symmetry issues are less deleterious at a significant distance, as in a large hall.

 

RE: Julian Hirsch at least... , posted on March 4, 2011 at 10:19:48
Tony Lauck
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As I recall, the tweeters weren't exactly above the woofers when the speakers were sitting on the floor (woofer down). But I could be mistaken about this.

In this time frame (early 60's) KLH had another model that had two tweeters, but I was suspicious of this one (heard it only in the store) as I had already experienced the bad results from running two KLH-6's side by side for each channel, with obvious comb filtering of the treble. That summer three roommates, E. Brad Meyer, Clark Johnsen and myself, had a lot of KLH-6's betweem us. At one point we had a fifth KLH-6 running an A + B center channel. When we were running only three speakers with the center channel we got good imaging on our Mercury Living Presence prerecorded tapes.




Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: Julian Hirsch at least... , posted on March 4, 2011 at 16:45:15
josh358
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Sounds like you had fun! Were the tapes discrete three channel recordings, or the two channel mixes?

 

RE: Julian Hirsch at least... , posted on March 5, 2011 at 06:27:10
Tony Lauck
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They were commercially stereo recordings.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: Julian Hirsch at least... , posted on March 3, 2011 at 16:35:18
Pat D
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I can assure that my old Kef 104 speakers,which came out in 1973, could do plenty of depth of image, and indeed, there is an LP I have somewhere called "Depth of Image" on Opus 3.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

That's not the point..., posted on March 3, 2011 at 18:55:11
mkuller
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...before HP no one talked about "soundstaging".

He identified it and gave it a name.

Did Hirsch mention it or imaging?

Ever?

How about the other publications and reviewers you mention circa 1973.

How about you - did you say in 1973 - "Wow, my KEFs image and throw a soundstage like a mfer!"

 

Nothing original here. This started in the 1930's., posted on March 4, 2011 at 10:42:07
Tony Lauck
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"...before HP no one talked about "soundstaging".

He identified it and gave it a name."


HP may have given it a name that stuck, but he was hardly the first to identify it. Lot's of us were familiar with the effects possible with a properly set up system and true stereo recordings. We may not have used HP's terms, but we certainly were looking for the same effects and knew how to fine tune a system to achieve them. This goes back to the early 1960's in my experience. And of course, Blumlein was familiar with these effects in the 1930's.

Around 1960 I was first introduced to stereo at a demonstration in the art gallery of Philips Exeter Academy. Brad Meyer was a student there (one year ahead of me) and a friend of Bill Bell who ran a Hi-fi store in Wellesley, Massachusetts called The Music Box. Brad arranged for a demo, and Bill Bell brought a huge Ampex 350-2 and a pair of Klipschorns, plus some microphones. The gallery had a grand piano and some local musicians provided the source material. As I recall, results with the piano were unsatisfactory until Brad's "condenser" microphone, a Neumann, was used instead of the the other microphones, which I believe were dynamics. Another student who heard this demo was J. Peter Moncrief. We noted the depth of field as well as left right positioning in this demonstration.


Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

Ahh, J. Peter Moncrieff...., posted on March 4, 2011 at 11:00:55
mkuller
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...I could tell you stories.

He was managing an apartment building in Berkeley, writing his first couple of booklike editions of IAR when a couple of friends and I started the Northern California Audio Society in 1979.

 

RE: Ahh, J. Peter Moncrieff...., posted on March 4, 2011 at 11:14:12
Tony Lauck
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"...I could tell you stories."

I'm sure you can. :-) Perhaps we'll get together some day and tell our tales...

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: Julian Hirsch at least... , posted on March 3, 2011 at 17:02:54
josh358
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E-Stat just mentioned that, it seems that HP praised their imaging in Issue 8 of TAS. But I don't think that affects my point, which is that before HP came on the scene, speakers weren't designed with the reproduction of depth in mind. Even if they'd wanted to do that, they wouldn't have known how. Clearly, though, Blumlein had observed the phenomenon back in the 30's, so there were speakers that did it.

I watched a demo stereo film made by Blumlein at a SMPTE presentation once, and the imagining was spectacular, even in a commercial movie theater. He was walking around on a stage, and you could hear not just his lateral position, but his distance from you.

 

RE: Not true then..., posted on March 3, 2011 at 14:58:03
josh358
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Julian Hirsch touted equipment that sounded like crap. I credit him with playing a role in my own audio education, but measurements aren't all: the sound quality of the equipment I bought took a quantum leap when I discovered first Stereophile and then The Absolute Sound (with Issue 2: HP sent you the first issue too when you subscribed).

 

RE: Not true then..., posted on March 3, 2011 at 15:11:34
Pat D
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I never even auditioned anything based on a TAS review. My dealer had Kef 104 speakers, which sounded better than just about anything else in town, and I read a couple of British reviews who liked them. One of them supplied some measurements, though nothing like those supplied nowadays by Soundstage and Stereophile. I followed the methods laid out by Julian Hirsch, who suggested auditioning speakers with a good variety of familiar recordings. At the time, I discovered I had no really good choral recordings.

Before I got the Quad ESL-63's, I had auditioned them several times over the years. I also had read a number of reviews, including Dick Heyser's not so favorable one in Audio, with measurements, of course, and quite favorable reviews in Stereo Review and High Fidelity. So I have experienced a lot of room placement issues with dipoles.

Several years ago, I went to wide dispersion forward radiating speakers and haven't looked back.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

RE: Not true then..., posted on March 3, 2011 at 15:26:59
josh358
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It was through TAS and Stereophile that I learned about the Tympani 1-D's, surely the most fulfilling audio purchase I ever made. They were, for all their flaws, light years ahead of any box then made, and in one area at least -- midbass reproduction -- remain unsurpassed, all these years later. Amount paid? $700, used, to a guy in New Jersey. They go for more today.

I hadn't heard them when I bought them. I can't think of many critics whose ears I'd trust to that extent. In fact, while it may be a function of the fact that I don't follow this stuff the way I used to, I can think of only one: HP.

 

RE: Not true then..., posted on March 3, 2011 at 12:31:32
rick_m
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"The early days of solid state electronics were no friend to music."

Can you think of anything whose early days WERE a friend to music?

I can't off-hand. It usually takes a good three generations before a truly new technology gets debugged enough to start delivering on it's original hype.

Actually I'm still not all that impressed with stereo, I'd rather have hi-res binaural.

Rick

 

RE: Not true then..., posted on March 3, 2011 at 12:21:47
Tony Lauck
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I was pretty well out of audio during the 1970's, after being in it throughout the entire 1960's, so I can't speak about that time period. I didn't buy any new equipment (just more LPs and a few prerecorded tapes) through this period. I was content with my Marantz 7T and MAC 275 that I inherited from my grandfather.

It was only after the CD vs. LP debate heated up in the 80's that I started getting new equipment, starting with an infamous Sony CDP-101, which was still working a few years ago when I last recall powering it up. Well made, but sounded like s***. In the 80's I also started to read TAS. And yes, I agree the early rack systems were pretty horrible on those occasions that I heard them.




Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: CDP-101, posted on March 3, 2011 at 12:35:03
rick_m
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I've still have mine moldering away in the basement and a service manual for them. You really should start a collection...

Rick

 

RE: CDP-101, posted on March 3, 2011 at 12:38:13
Tony Lauck
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Unfortunately, I sold the MAC-275. Big mistake. :-(

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

How about Godfather? Uncle? Next door Neighbor?, posted on March 3, 2011 at 07:24:56
kerr
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Posts: 4376
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: November 10, 2003
But I think reviewers should be included in the voting for the various royal titles to the High End.

Peter Aczel gets my vote for Redheaded Stepchild and Beheaded Court Jester, Twice Removed, of the High End.

 

I'll just give you, posted on March 3, 2011 at 06:24:35
E-Stat
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Contributor
  Since:
April 5, 2002
a big smile for not understanding.

rw

 

apparently you dont know, posted on March 2, 2011 at 22:13:08
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15388
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
the difference between a REVIEWER (hp, JGH,JA,RH, etc) and a DESIGNER (Paul Klipsch, Peter Walker, Edgar Villchur, and others).

it shows how much you really pay attention. youre too busy trying to discredit others and not busy enough realizing that you have a lot to learn. too bad you dont enjoy this hobby.
...regards...tr

 

Apparently you can't read., posted on March 3, 2011 at 05:33:32
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 12506
Location: Fredericton NB
Joined: June 20, 2000
My post quite explicitly made a distinction between reviewing and designing. Do you want to read the text again? Here it is.

"In any case, I find it a little strange to give such a title to any audio reviewer. I'd look to Paul Klipsch, Peter Walker, Edgar Villchur, and others who made advances in design and/or manufactured excellent equipment."

I should point out that HP started HP in 1973 and JGH started S'phile in 1962. HP was a latecomer. So was JGH for that matter. Audio magazine began in 1947. High Fidelity magazine started in 1951. Stereo Review began in 1958.

But I also said I wouldn't give the title of 'father of the high end' to any reviewer. Why should I?
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

HP really does merit the title, though, posted on March 3, 2011 at 15:04:36
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
IMO. Having lived through that period and watched what happened. And not, I should add, liking all of it.

Pluses: better sound and a community that helps people achieve it
Minuses: equipment that's overpriced for what it is, snake oil

 

Why should you..., posted on March 3, 2011 at 11:51:05
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
...even be posting here in Critic's Corner?

 

Or in any other, except for Speakers and Music, for that matter. N/T, posted on March 3, 2011 at 12:02:36
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
N/T

 

RE: Or in any other, except for Speakers and Music, for that matter. N/T, posted on March 3, 2011 at 14:58:29
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 12506
Location: Fredericton NB
Joined: June 20, 2000
Speaking of speakers, just what are those new speakers you got? The ones that replaced your Kefs.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

But without HP and TAS..., posted on March 2, 2011 at 19:04:48
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
...you would probably not know about most of the high end products of the past 40 years.

And would have a difficult time describing what you hear.

Assuming you do.

 

Without Edison, we'd all be sitting in the dark. No Ben Franklin, no electricity., posted on March 3, 2011 at 09:47:00
Enophile
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If no HP and TAS, there would have been some other guy filling the niche.

Nothing at all against HP or TAS, I value both, but I won't go along with the notion that if it weren't for HP we wouldn't have knowledge of any high end gear from the last 40 years.

Hell, for all we know, there were more audiophiles buying Hi Fi gear before the hobby got ruined by us "aficionados."

I'll go search and try to compare circulation numbers now vs. the electronic/hobbiest magazines from before HP. It may be enlightening!





 

Edison was a shmuck. Try A/C is from Tesla, Then James Watt, How about Count Volta... Galvani, posted on March 10, 2011 at 19:53:38
Guericke, Von Kliest, Musschenbroek (Of Leiden jar fame) Gralath, Priestley, Franklin, Faraday, Maxwell, Volta, Tesla,
The roll call of folks who discovered the science of electromagnetism... Edison was a small bump in the road.
Tesla had a FAR more brilliant mind than that dog, Edison.(and a LOT off the stuff Edison patented, other folks invented, Edison was just a better huckster, and a better liar, and had better lawyers.)
Oh yeah, the real reason i was gonna post (before i ranted about that usurper edison,) was that just like one guy grabs most of the credit because he is a bigger blowhard,(Edison) many many folks helped move audiophilia along. Yeah HP was important, but so were many others.

 

Yeah, he merely invented the phonograph, posted on March 16, 2011 at 19:39:57
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
And -- off the top of my head -- the multiplex telegraph, the carbon microphone, the stock ticker, the practical incandescent lightbulb, the motion picture, the diode, the mimeograph, and the fluoroscope.

What you are doing is confusing book learning, of which Edison had little, with genius.

 

RE: Edison was a shmuck. Try A/C is from Tesla, Then James Watt, How about Count Volta... Galvani, posted on March 11, 2011 at 17:02:24
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
You were right on about Edison. It was fun to listen to the cylinders down at Ft. Meyer's, Florida, though.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

Late 50's early 60's was when housewives listened to the console.. All those easy listening Lps from the 50's., posted on March 10, 2011 at 19:30:44
There were mountains of easy listening Lps in the later 50's early 60's. The 'HiFi' was the home theater of that period. Housewives were supposed to do the housework while listening to Mantovani or whoever. And buy phonograph consoles.... they did. and LPs. ALL those stupid easy listening Lps are from that period...
I can remember my Cousin-in law (who had moved to the suburbs) showing me his new 'stereo' and explained how the 'lows come out over here, and the highs over there' (i kept my mouth shut, he is Italian, and would not take kindly to being corrected by a teenage girl.I was into Stereo by then myself) He only bought it to impress the neighbors..
So the real reason that stereo took off was suburban showoffs having to display the latest and greatest to out do each other.

 

Another scientist would discover electricity, just a little later., posted on March 3, 2011 at 09:52:55
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
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Many discoveries were arrived at independently, by different scientists, at about the same time.

Where do you see the difference, exactly?

 

Exactly. As I said, "If no HP and TAS, there would have been some other guy filling the niche.", posted on March 3, 2011 at 10:27:32
Enophile
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I also think it's fair to see if there has been a detrimental effect on interest in the hobby as a result of this move toward ever more connoisseurship.






 

More today I supect than in the past, posted on March 3, 2011 at 15:08:26
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
because there's no "mid fi" left to bring new blood into the hobby. Even though there is still a good selection of modestly-priced, high value gear, some of it reviewed in Stereophile and TAS, kids get scared by $1000 cables and $40,000 speakers, and it's hard to blame them.

 

"kids get scared by $1000 cables and $40,000 speakers" - that's NOT TRUE., posted on March 3, 2011 at 15:29:22
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
Now, had you said "Kids have no idea, and don't give a s..t about $1000 cables and $40,000 speakers" - I would agree with you. I just don't see why it's a bad thing - this hobby is relatively exclusive, and let it stay that way.

 

-N-O-T- TRUE., posted on March 3, 2011 at 15:42:18
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
At least is is according to what kids have told me, in at least one case on the Asylum. Their image of us audiophiles is a bunch of overweight 50 year old guys with scruffy beards, spending thousands on gear that nobody cares about.

Now you might say what matter if the hobby doesn't attract new blood? From a personal perspective, and aside from a vague feeling of melancholy and personal obsolescence, it probably doesn't. Audio and video paid the rent for many years, for which I'm sincerely grateful -- how many people find people gullible enough to pay them to do their hobby? And even if the audio business were to disappear overnight, I could keep myself happy forever with what's available on Audiogon, or for that matter from Parts Express.

But I like to think that others will have the same opportunity I did to enjoy good sound, and the deep pleasure it's given me over the years. And if we don't attract new blood, fewer people will.

 

RE: -N-O-T- TRUE., posted on March 4, 2011 at 07:13:00
kerr
Audiophile

Posts: 4376
Location: Central Indiana
Joined: November 10, 2003
>Their image of us audiophiles is a bunch of overweight 50 year old guys with scruffy beards, spending thousands on gear that nobody cares about.<

Where does this stereotype come from??? I'm clean-shaven!!! Sheesh! :)

 

LOL, posted on March 4, 2011 at 07:56:41
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
From a post of TeddiJackEddie's:

"You know the type - belly hanging over his pants, totally out-of-style clothes, scraggly beard."

http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=critics&n=50423&highlight=totally+out-of-style+clothes,+scraggly+beard&r=&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3FForumSelect%3DSelected%26amp%3Bauthor%3Dlake%2540http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ciekawe.znajduj%EA.olawa.pl%2F%26amp%3Buser_id%3D52179%26amp%3BsortOrder%3DDESC%26amp%3B

Except I misremembered "scraggly" as "scruffy" . . .

 

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