Opinions of the cognoscenti ?

I attended one of the concerts at which the 1st Symphony was recorded. Whether that qualifies me to be numbered among the cognoscenti I will leave to others to determine. I've been listening to this recording today on Spotify, and based on my memory of the live performance, the recording sounds swifter and lighter-textured. In person the music came across as massively powerful, as if a leather-bound copy of War and Peace had been dropped on one's head. The recording sounds OK, but I don't think Verizon Hall is an easy place to record--the sound does seem a bit dry. Still, a worthwhile listening experience. I'll probably buy the CD as a souvenir. Who knows? My reaction may be different when I hear this on my main system.

One other thing about the concert performance: before the music began, Y N-S turned to the audience to inform us that it was being recorded, encouraging us to keep audience noise to a minimum. I was won over; he's extremely personable. I can see why he's well liked by concert audiences.

"Live" Recordings are a Menace imnsho, posted on February 2, 2021 at 11:31:58

Mel
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They are inexpensive to produce, but I think they have resulted in a noticeable reduction in listening pleasure. It is but one reason that many of us prefer older recordings made before this trend.

1. They are recorded in concert halls that may or may not provide acoustics as good as nearby recording studios.

2. Even where the concert hall is a good recording venue, the hall will almost certainly sound better for recording purposes without an audience. One can, for example, compare the Berlin Philharmonie with and without an audience since they are recording without one for their streaming during the Covid period. Some halls, notably the Concertgebouw, may even need some dampening when the audience is not there.

3. When recording with an audience, the microphones are generally placed very close to the players to minimize audience noise. Hence more and closer multi-miking than is required with an empty auditorium.

The economic considerations of recording seem to weigh more heavily on the Majors than the Minors. That seems to be where we are seeing more "live" recordings.

Not to mention something of a misnomer, posted on February 3, 2021 at 06:45:17

Doktor Brahms
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Most (nearly all?) "live" recordings of major orchestras on major labels are recorded over a series of performances, often supplemented by patch sessions. The final release is edited from these various elements. How is that a "live" recording? For this reason, the inclusion of applause in such a recording seems to be something of a cheat. And as Donald Vroon said in American Record Guide, all applause sounds the same, and it never sounds musical. Its inclusion in a recording is a ruinous distraction, at least to me.

Agree Entirely, posted on February 3, 2021 at 08:00:31
Mel Audiophile Posts: 2993 Location: New York City Area Joined: February 21, 2001	And there's always the idiots standing and screaming Bravo! before the music has died down. When I record I try to cut the applause and patch in some silence where needed.

But to an audiophile. . . , posted on February 3, 2021 at 11:03:55

Chris from Lafayette
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. . . applause "definition" is a great test of one's system! ;-)

OTOH, I once interviewed Aldo Ciccolini for our local newspaper in Palo Alto. He agreed with you, and he said he hated the whole ritual of applause and bowing to the audience. He claimed that when the last note is over, the pianist's work should be done, and he should just get up and leave the stage in silence, especially since applause breaks the spell. Of course, the peanut gallery would never stand for this! ;-)

Furthermore, he said that a musician should be like a monk, and not get married or have a family or social life. Rather, a musician should be married to the music!

One other tidbit Ciccolini mentioned was that he was scheduled to perform the Busoni Piano Concerto with Furtwangler, but Furtwangler died a few months before that performance was to take place. That performance might have been very interesting if it had occurred.

Busoni , posted on February 3, 2021 at 12:52:19
pbarach Audiophile Posts: 3307 Location: Ohio Joined: June 22, 2008	I saw Garrick Ohlsson play the Busoni a couple of years ago with Cleveland Orchestra; he didn't look any more stressed than someone eating a sandwich. Even the Hamelin video on YouTube shows the pianist looking plenty stressed from time to time. I wonder if Ciccolini had the technique for the Busoni--I mean I only know his Satie records, and that repertoire surely didn't stretch him that much.

Actually, Ciccolini had a pretty BIG repertoire, posted on February 3, 2021 at 13:40:01

Chris from Lafayette
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Complete Mozart Sonatas, complete Beethoven Sonatas, complete Debussy piano works, Tchaikovsky Concerto, Albeniz, Granados, Falla, lots of Liszt (my own first exposure to his playing), Chabrier, Schubert, Schumann, Chopin, Mendelssohn, Ravel, Saint-Saens, Grieg, and (yes) Busoni (even aside from the Concerto). (And I didn't even mention Satie!)

In fact, when I interviewed him, Ciccolini mentioned that he was excited to be recording some of Busoni's solo works (which is how his story about the (non) performance of the Busoni Concerto also came up). Also, it looks like Erato put out a collection of Ciccolini's recordings from 1950 to 1991 this past November - 56 LP's [EDIT: Oops! I meant CD's].

RE: Ciccolini . . . BIG repertoire - And Quite Elegant Technique (at Least on My LPs) --, posted on February 22, 2021 at 17:21:22
goldenthal Audiophile Posts: 1001 Location: Ontario Joined: March 28, 2003	A fine musician. My only quibble is that, to me, he made Spanish music sound Italianate (you know, just as Karajan made Prokofiev 5 sound German, as did Pappano with Aida, amazingly enough). Maybe it's just me? Jeremy

RE: But to an audiophile. . . , posted on February 3, 2021 at 11:32:01
Mel Audiophile Posts: 2993 Location: New York City Area Joined: February 21, 2001	But one such recording of applause should do. I notice that sometimes, especially where the endings are not at maximum orchestral force, the conductor will leave his arms in the air as though to lead the audience in silence, and not break the spell, until he lowers his arms.

What? You don't like to compare different applause in different halls? ;-), posted on February 3, 2021 at 13:15:39
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26477 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012	"I notice that sometimes, especially where the endings are not at maximum orchestral force, the conductor will leave his arms in the air as though to lead the audience in silence, and not break the spell, until he lowers his arms." And sometimes, even that doesn't deter some of the yahoos in the audience! ;-)

I call him "Bravo! Guy", posted on February 3, 2021 at 14:08:31
srl1 Audiophile Posts: 1339 Location: Florida Panhandle Joined: September 2, 2003	He has to be first! I always listen for him at the end of live recordings. :)

I cannot tell a lie - I was a "Bravo Guy" once back in the 70's, posted on February 3, 2021 at 17:33:46
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26477 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012	Weissenberg/Ozawa/SFSO doing the Rachmaninoff Third at Flint Center in Cupertino. Some kid a couple of rows in front of me turned around and gave me a dirty look! ;-) But I've been clean and on the straight and narrow for goin' on 50 years now!

Dunno about that "monk" thing...J.S. Bach multiplied like a RABBIT!:-) n/t, posted on February 3, 2021 at 11:22:10
SE	.

Maybe he was thinking more of Bruckner! ;-), posted on February 3, 2021 at 13:11:43
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26477 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012	I don't remember the quote exactly, but I think Brahms once said that the monks of St. Florian have the transgressions of Bruckner's compositions on their souls!

Yes - your third point is particularly troubling for me, posted on February 2, 2021 at 13:17:30

Chris from Lafayette
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Nevertheless, there are some "live" recordings which IMHO are amazingly good from an engineering point of view, such as my old stand-by DVD-Audio label, Nishimura, which did a number of outstanding minimally-microphoned in-concert recordings, such as the Mendelssohn Lobgesang Symphony with Marcus Bosch, and "Die Akustik des Leipziger Gewandhauses" (works by Mozart, Boccherini and Mendelssohn) with Morten Schuldt-Jensen and the Leipzig Chamber Orchestra.

RE: Opinions of the cognoscenti ?, posted on February 2, 2021 at 09:30:13
LtMandella	"the recording sounds swifter and lighter-textured." I agree, streamed version sounds a little bass light, not as "weighty" as I would expect. That's a nice story about YNS :)

RE: Opinions of the cognoscenti ?, posted on February 1, 2021 at 08:46:44
Mel Audiophile Posts: 2993 Location: New York City Area Joined: February 21, 2001	FWIW Gramophone agrees with you calling it a "stunning album" and making it recording of the month.

I think Gramophone needs a good talking to by Amphissa! [nt] ;-), posted on February 1, 2021 at 11:29:41
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26477 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012

As do we all...., posted on February 1, 2021 at 15:24:59
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 48887 Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM Joined: February 26, 2001	Especially you. :-) First they came for the dumb-asses And I did not speak out Because I was not a dumb-ass

Hey - I'm willing to have a talk from anybody! [nt] ;-), posted on February 1, 2021 at 16:14:28
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26477 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012

RE: Opinions of the cognoscenti ?, posted on February 1, 2021 at 09:09:47
LtMandella	Interesting although "stunning does seem a bit "hyperbolic". I would stick with "really like" :) But I suppose the editors of Gramaphone wouuld not tolerate such a colloquialism.

No thanks., posted on January 31, 2021 at 14:52:14

Kal Rubinson
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I hadn't heard it because, although I love the Rach Sym1 and the Symphonic Dances, I already have many good recordings including several in MCH. But I just played it and find it superfluous. The performance is workman-like and the sound quality barely acceptable.

Let me suggest something vastly more entertaining from a surprising source.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-87-oppo-udp-

The curse of the "Fabulous Philadelphia Sound?' When will it end? , posted on February 2, 2021 at 07:58:16

jdaniel@jps.net

In my experience, EMI captured the best string sound overall. I still enjoy Ormandy's Bartok Mandarin/MSPC from '79. Muti took over soon after.

Denon recorded Ormandy performing Tchaikovsky 5, at the dawning of the CD era, and Telarc's Saint Saens 3rd caught the Philly strings at their very silkiest.

DGG did a fantastic job recording Garcia's Rodrigo, IMHO. Sorry they couldn't get it together in Philadelphia.

Denon? Nope., posted on February 2, 2021 at 17:24:42
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26477 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012	I remember when Harold Lawrence was at my house, we talked about this very recording. ;-)

RE: Denon? Nope., posted on February 3, 2021 at 14:51:13
Mali Audiophile Posts: 2220 Location: Wyoming Joined: June 12, 2003 Contributor Since: November 11, 2009	Ovation magazine. It was a great one, but didn't last very long. It's articles and reviews (not that many in each issue) were excellent. I still have a few copies around the house and enjoy re-reading them.

Wasn't it staffed by writers who used to work for High Fidelity magazine? [nt], posted on February 3, 2021 at 17:35:29
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26477 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012

RE: Wasn't it staffed by writers who used to work for High Fidelity magazine? [nt], posted on February 4, 2021 at 14:58:47

Mali
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I now believe I was thinking of Opus Magazine, not Ovation, and you are probably, too. Yes, Opus was started by writers from High Fidelity who quit when that magazine cut its classical music coverage drastically. High Fidelity always had far better coverage of classical than its main rival of the times, Stereo Review, but as rock took over like everywhere else, the suits starting making the inevitable cuts in coverage.

Opus only lasted a few years before its owners decided its bottom line wasn't worth continuing with it. Early 80s.

Amazingly, back issues of High Fidelity are available online (ink). Brings back a lot of memories, some of which are back when I drooled over Japanese gear for sale at dirt cheap prices in the PXes I got to occasionally in Viet Nam. Ended up with mainly Sansui gear and a Teac tape deck.

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/High-Fidelity-Magazine.htm

Haha, good catch. I was close! That CD was out when record stores and audio boutiques offered about 10 or 12, posted on February 2, 2021 at 19:54:07
jdaniel@jps.net	CDs, under glass.

RE: The curse of the "Fabulous Philadelphia Sound?' When will it end? , posted on February 2, 2021 at 14:51:15
Todd Krieger Audiophile Posts: 37333 Location: SW United States Joined: November 2, 2000	Wasn't that "Philadelphia string sound" as much a product of the old Academy of Music? (I attended several concerts there, and loved the acoustics.) I always thought "string sound" was mostly a function of the hall and the balance between the sections..... Unless Philly had a higher percentage of Strads, Amatis, Guarneris, etc., relative to other orchestras.......

Is it really so surprising?, posted on January 31, 2021 at 23:02:21
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26477 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012	Weren't many of us here (with one notable exception!) raving about Feltz's MCh recording of Gliere's Ilya Mourametz Symphony a couple of years ago? I haven't yet heard his Rachmaninoff First Symphony though - sounds as if I probably need to make some time for it! ;-) And I still want to hear N-S for myself too, although I'll probably be concentrating more on the Symphonic Dances.

RE: Is it really so surprising?, posted on February 1, 2021 at 00:49:41
Kal Rubinson Reviewer Posts: 12436 Location: New York Joined: June 5, 2002	I t was surprising because it was unexpected. In fact, for me, it was the other way around because the Gliere was released more than 2 years after the Rachmaninoff.

Actually, Amazon doesn't show that that Rachmaninoff First Symphony. . . , posted on February 1, 2021 at 01:34:35
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26477 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012	. . . has been released even now! ;-) (And, yes, I searched under Rachmaninov too!)

Since when is Amazon an authority?, posted on February 1, 2021 at 08:29:39
Kal Rubinson Reviewer Posts: 12436 Location: New York Joined: June 5, 2002	I received the SACD in 2016.

(Just poking a little fun your way - E-X-C-U-U-U-S-E. . . M-E-E-E!) [nt] ;-), posted on February 1, 2021 at 17:01:22
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26477 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012

RE: Since when is Amazon an authority?, posted on February 1, 2021 at 09:07:45

Ivan303
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Rachmaninoff with a 'w' :-)

17.07 and free Prime shipping.

Link below:

First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

Sergei Rachmaninow: Symphony No. 1

LOL! The mystery is solved! - Thanks! [nt] ;-), posted on February 1, 2021 at 11:26:02
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26477 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012

And I bought it..., posted on February 1, 2021 at 19:17:14
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 48887 Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM Joined: February 26, 2001	The 16/44.1 version on QOBUZ was so 'alive' I have to hear what the SACD sounds like. First they came for the dumb-asses And I did not speak out Because I was not a dumb-ass

Ah, yes..., posted on February 1, 2021 at 06:54:02

Ivan303
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Spelling!

First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

RE: No thanks., posted on January 31, 2021 at 21:39:52
LtMandella	Will definitely check it out, thank you.

The Feltz/Dortmunder is already listed in my QOBUZ favorites..., posted on January 31, 2021 at 17:00:25

Ivan303
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so I must have liked it. :-)

That, along with the Petrenko/Royal Liverpool Philharmonic take.

Oh, and the Jurowski/London Phil, the Kitayenko/G�rzenich-Orchester K�ln, the Kogan/Moscow State Symphony and the Hughes/Royal Scottish.

That's about it.

Wonder if Sanderling/Leningrad State Philharmonic would be worth a listen

Great piece of music that's hard to mess up, IMNSHO.

First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

RE: Opinions of the cognoscenti ?, posted on January 30, 2021 at 19:55:07
Daverz Audiophile Posts: 2104 Location: So. California Joined: September 24, 2002	Easy to judge yourself: how loud is the tam-tam in the final moments?

"how loud is the tam-tam" - (The Hurwitz test!) [nt] ;-), posted on January 31, 2021 at 00:42:56
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26477 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012

Whoa! He got that from me. I started the gong/tam tam craze when people thought the instrument was dead. Nt, posted on January 31, 2021 at 11:31:50
jdaniel@jps.net	.

OMG - then I've been wrong all these years! I always associated you. . . , posted on January 31, 2021 at 12:01:33
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26477 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012	. . . with a "is the organ loud enough?" sensibility - but I'm happy to acknowledge my misconception! ;-)

Umm ...., posted on January 30, 2021 at 18:19:36

Amphissa
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.
I have the original recording. He uses the revised opening, which is good IMO. As for the rest --- well -- the Rach Sym 1 is my favorite of his symphonies, and of my 35+ recordings, this would not be among my top 20. Plus it is DG audio, which had problems back in the day.

That said, I don't do streaming stuff, so maybe it is among the better options if you are limited to streaming like Qobuz.

.

"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)

The Prodigal Son has returned again [nt] ;-), posted on January 31, 2021 at 00:59:30
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26477 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012

Noticed it on Qobuz yesterday, posted on January 30, 2021 at 14:26:56
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26477 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012	Haven't listened to it yet. And I haven't been a fan of N-S's Montreal recordings, but I DO really like his complete Daphnis and Chloe with the Rotterdam forces on BIS.

RE: Noticed it on Qobuz yesterday, posted on January 30, 2021 at 16:08:03
LtMandella	thanks! I will listen to that one tonight on Amazon.

RE: Opinions of the cognoscenti ?, posted on January 30, 2021 at 11:42:42

Mel
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As for recording quality, DG has been giving the Boston Symphony some great sound for their recent recordings. A cursory listening to this new one from Philadelphia on a secondary system reveals it to be dryer. I like the piece so I'll give it a full listen. Thanks for the tip.

An old standard with superlative sound is Ashkenazy in Amsterdam. But for those who care, only 2 channel 44/16.

RE: Opinions of the cognoscenti ?, posted on January 30, 2021 at 12:31:04
gussclarinet Industry Professional Posts: 40 Location: Central NJ Joined: March 2, 2011	Yes, Boston Symphony Hall is superior to the Kimmel Center. All of the Nelsons recordings for DG sound great. Roy

RE: Opinions of the cognoscenti ?, posted on January 30, 2021 at 11:57:56
LtMandella	I'll look for the DG/BSO recordings. Thanks. re: dryer. I am listening with an OTL tube amp that generally sounds a bit "wetter" ;) than SS amps.

RE: Opinions of the cognoscenti ?, posted on January 30, 2021 at 12:54:17
Mel Audiophile Posts: 2993 Location: New York City Area Joined: February 21, 2001	Then perhaps, if I am right, the BSO recordings will sound sloshier to you?

RE: Opinions of the cognoscenti ?, posted on January 30, 2021 at 16:03:08
LtMandella	sweaty, and perhaps a bit clammy ;) But this does point out the limitations of using natural language to describe what we hear. Impossible except in very vague and imprecise terms.

Sloshy but good! ;-), posted on January 30, 2021 at 14:17:56
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26477 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012	Actually, the DG BSO recordings have sounded pretty darned good for quite a while IMHO, starting with the Steinberg Planets/AsZ. I was just recently listening to the Ozawa Damnation of Faust and the Kubelik Concerto for Orchestra and Beethoven Fifth - all truly excellent IMHO. (Discrete quad in all via SACD or blu-ray audio.)

Tried to get excited about him..., posted on January 30, 2021 at 10:58:22
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 48887 Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM Joined: February 26, 2001	when he was in Montreal. Just could not do it. But then I'm hardly the 'cognoscenti'. Will see how he does with the Philly group. First they came for the dumb-asses And I did not speak out Because I was not a dumb-ass

RE: Tried to get excited about him..., posted on January 30, 2021 at 11:10:19
LtMandella	too "plain vanilla" ?

So just streamed it via QOBUZ, posted on January 30, 2021 at 19:09:41
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 48887 Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM Joined: February 26, 2001	And yes, a very good take and recording of the 1st symphony both artistically and audio-wise. Good to see the Philly folks producing good stuff! First they came for the dumb-asses And I did not speak out Because I was not a dumb-ass

Classical Court

Opinions of the cognoscenti ?

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