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It is unfortunate, but classical music continues to take it on the chin for past sins of

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Posted on October 5, 2020 at 11:01:22
tinear
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 non-inclusion of women and minorities. I say "unfortunate," because in these times, it already faces cataclysmic difficulties that indeed, if the virus continues on into the far reaches of the coming year, which is a very real possibility, could threaten many if-not-all major orchestras and drive many professionals, well, out of the profession. The damage to future players also cannot be overstated.

Though I have agreed with the accusations, for the most part because they are irrefutable, there is one area of attack wherein even I draw the line: the assertion that Western classical music as a genre is not superior to other non-Western musical traditions in other cultures and that it's world-wide popularity is not just evidence of imperialism.

I won't bother to criticize that, partly because I can't take it very seriously and partly because it's too easy a target. What next, attempts to equate gothic and baroque cathedrals to early Egyptian, Persian, or Aztec monuments?

Western philosophy, literature, painting, science (and much more) simply represent in number and complexity the highest intellectual and artistic achievements of humanity--- I hardly think false equivalences do any culture much good.

That said, it must be understood that "Western" culture wasn't formed in an incubator; it's inspirations, underpinnings, and improvements drew from many, many sources outside its geographic boundaries.

 

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Hey, tin - you deserve to be "cancelled" for thoughts like those! [nt] ;-), posted on October 5, 2020 at 11:56:37
Chris from Lafayette
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I woke the toke. nt, posted on October 5, 2020 at 17:50:40
tinear
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 dd

 

RE: It is unfortunate, but classical music continues to take it on the chin for past sins of, posted on October 5, 2020 at 18:11:52
rivervalley817
 'What next, attempts to equate gothic and baroque cathedrals to early Egyptian, Persian, or Aztec monuments?'

we can do that:

 

Greece was the beginning of the "West." Rome continued it. Even mosques, per your, posted on October 6, 2020 at 11:39:33
tinear
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 article...

I don't know, i wouldn't put the pyramids up there with stained glass, sculpture-and-mural painted cathedrals. Magnificent, yes, but minus the artistic depth, historical meaning, or elevating impact. Pyramids were, after all, monuments to one person's vanity--- and fear of death.

 

RE: Greece was the beginning of the "West." Rome continued it. Even mosques, per your, posted on October 6, 2020 at 12:26:47
rivervalley817
 well, stained glass is ornamentation, not architecture

re: the pyramids ... have you read 'The Wind From Nowhere'?

it posits that they were built as survival bunkers against a worldwide recurring natural disaster - extinction event that moves the concept into the 'modern world' as the phenomena reappears ... sort of a cousin to the HAB Theory

'Hardoon Tower is a pyramid-like structure intended to withstand the wind; it is being built by Hardoon, a millionaire businessman, who has a private army.' [how quaint ... a 'millionaire'!]

you can read it on-line for free with a web search

this went so far OT it really belongs in Central, sorry CFL

see link:

with regards,

 

RE: [how quaint ... a 'millionaire'!, posted on October 6, 2020 at 12:40:53
B. Scarpia






View YouTube Video

 

RE: [how quaint ... a 'millionaire'!, posted on October 6, 2020 at 12:48:59
rivervalley817
 yesssss! perfect!

 

RE: It is unfortunate, but classical music continues to take it on the chin for past sins of, posted on October 6, 2020 at 13:04:35
steve.ott@kctcs.edu
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 Jacques Barzun taught (I think) Western Cultural history at Columbia for decades, and wrote a book called "From Dawn to Decadence: 500 Years of Western Culture". He was once asked how do you know a culture has become decadent (its last phase). He said when a culture accepts the absurd as normal, the culture is decadent. When the greatest music is dismissed and even condemned because it was written by mostly male Europeans, that is an absurd and therefore decadent position.

 

Yes! Barzun had a lot of insights! [nt], posted on October 6, 2020 at 14:42:20
Chris from Lafayette
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"it really belongs in Central" - I just screwed up in that respect too. . . , posted on October 6, 2020 at 14:45:12
Chris from Lafayette
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 . . . I posted something on Central when I meant to post it on General.

I have no problem with your post remaining here, if that's where you want it.

 

I would have picked far more compelling examples of current absurdities destroying Western Civilization. Otherwise, , posted on October 6, 2020 at 15:13:57
jdaniel@jps.net
 I'm a big fan of Barzun.

If I'm not confusing his book with Boorstin's "Creators," I really enjoyed all the surprising perspective, such as IIRC the "invention" of the audience, (passive onlookers as opposed to participants) and the invention of the Concert Hall, which allowed the recently invented "artist" to orchestrate in far more subtle ways.

Great stuff~

 

RE: "it really belongs in Central" - I just screwed up in that respect too. . . , posted on October 6, 2020 at 15:21:54
rivervalley817
 well, I was just riffing to 'What(s) next, attempts to equate gothic and baroque cathedrals to early Egyptian, Persian, or Aztec monuments? from tinear's 'classical music continues to take it on the chin for past sins' comments posted here

so I don't know where it belongs or if I get any say, that's above my pay-grade ... we've already explored this with 'what's the value of free' before, remember?

with regards,





 

And in any case, Rod solved my problem - Thanks, Rod!, posted on October 6, 2020 at 16:13:22
Chris from Lafayette
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 But if in the future you (or any inmate here) need(s) any "special handling" of your posts in THIS forum, I believe my special moderator powers still would allow for that.

 

Stained glass are architectural art. One of the driving ideas was to design wall, posted on October 6, 2020 at 17:57:03
tinear
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 supports to allow more area for them. They are a key to the architectural impact. Similarly, chapel sculptures and altar murals/paintings all add to the whole. They are "architectural."

 

RE: Stained glass are architectural art. One of the driving ideas was to design wall, posted on October 6, 2020 at 18:23:35
rivervalley817
 I'm not one to live in a stained glass house and throw rocks but ...
I'm pretty certain that the geometries and implementation of flying arches were in use before stained glass windows ... well, any glass windows really

the spring voussoir and central voussoir or keystone arch concepts came well before they filled them with glass from what I've been taught and learned

I'm relying on memory but am certainly willing to learn more or otherwise

edit: I just realized that you've got the flying buttress in mind, and yes that engineering was driven by weight relief across spans of glass ... but that's [forgive me] a narrow focus on the overarching cncept

best regards,

 

RE: It is unfortunate, but classical music continues to take it on the chin for past sins of, posted on October 6, 2020 at 21:58:54
Todd Krieger
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 I blame the mainstream media and education system...... It's not just minorities, but young people at large......

Several years ago, I asked a young man (about 15 years old at the time) about Beethoven...... I was shocked when his response was, "Oh, you mean the racist? ..... " ..... He was apparently taught in school that Beethoven was one amongst many "racists" in history..... He didn't even know that Beethoven was a music composer. He only knew him as a "racist."

 

RE: It is unfortunate, but classical music continues to take it on the chin for past sins of, posted on October 6, 2020 at 23:10:54
rivervalley817
 are you sure? do you understand how odd this post seems?

why were you talking to a 15 year old boy about Beethoven?

'not just minorities'

noted: you only talk to white 15 year old boys about Beethoven

where were his parents? I blame them

see how that works? or does this comment seem odd to you?

be well,


 

RE: Beethoven, racist? But..., posted on October 7, 2020 at 06:01:15
B. Scarpia

 

RE: It is unfortunate, but classical music continues to take it on the chin for past sins of, posted on October 7, 2020 at 22:29:35
Todd Krieger
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 "why were you talking to a 15 year old boy about Beethoven?"

Why not?? .......

I think music is a big deal in regard to opening up interest in young people..... I believe if it weren't for music, I wouldn't be alive today.......

It's also a peek into the education and cultural environments these people have been subjected to...... It's often depressing........

The discussion was music, he liked rap, he didn't know who Louis Armstrong was...... I was trying to give him ideas to expand his musical interests....... Although I quickly realized he was totally uninterested...... (I don't cling to a topic if the person I'm discussing it with moves on to something else.)

Most younger people (aged 30 and below), if the discussion is music, I mention Beethoven, I've rarely encountered someone in that age bracket who knew this composer beyond the Fifth Symphony...... I've even encountered people in that age bracket who have never heard of him. I also encountered someone who thought he was a literary writer.... Most of them were conditioned to believe that classical music was "old people music" or "rich people music". (I never editorialize what they tell me, there is no "wrong answer" from them. It's purely curiosity on my part.)

I've also encountered young people who claimed the Beatles, Frank Sinatra, and/or Led Zeppelin was/were "racist"......

 

RE: It is unfortunate, but classical music continues to take it on the chin for past sins of, posted on October 8, 2020 at 06:40:31
Eldragon
 Burnham The Managerial Revolution (1941) and Francis in Leviathan and his enemies wrote abour it. "On its surface, liberalism promotes a fairer social contract and equal protection for all. But beneath its egalitarian aspect hides its vindictive purpose: to subvert traditional ways of life. Liberalism, is a coordinated ­project of cultural dispossession."


Btw, that was a good article.

 

RE: It is unfortunate, but classical music continues to take it on the chin for past sins of, posted on October 8, 2020 at 10:11:25
rivervalley817
 of course 'Liberalism' in the cultural context discussed therein was different from the current context by magnitudes of degrees

it is not equal to 'cancel culture' if that had occurred to you

in any event the attempted point being made sailed far enough overhead no glove could touch it, therefore no error can be assigned

I'll wouldn't go near the subject again with a 10' pole

be well,

 

Good points, Todd - Crazy age we're living in now [nt], posted on October 9, 2020 at 00:06:50
Chris from Lafayette
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What are, in your opinion, "traditional ways of life?" And for whom,, posted on October 9, 2020 at 09:37:10
tinear
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 for what cultures?

 

RE: What are, in your opinion, "traditional ways of life?" And for whom,, posted on October 9, 2020 at 10:44:19
rivervalley817
 the point of the link provided sailed right over some heads I see

yours not being one of them

regards,

 

Funny, posted on October 9, 2020 at 11:34:17
jedrider
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 The Right would say it is Elitist.

The Left would say it is not Woke.

Fuck them all! Classical music is one of the pinnacles of civilization.

Yeah, we really should have remained Neanderthals, but it's far too late to reconsider that fork in the road.

 

RE: Funny, posted on October 9, 2020 at 11:50:36
rivervalley817
 'we really should have remained Neanderthals'

there are several branches of humanity extant and if you ascribe to eugenics, no choice whatsoever ... take redheads for example

or more accurately 'gingers'

no offense intended because I don't ... ascribe that is

regards,

 

RE: What are, in your opinion, "traditional ways of life?" And for whom,, posted on October 9, 2020 at 12:22:34
Eldragon
 "American life, Francis warned,(Liberalism) would eventually target every symbol and institution of the older social order. National loyalty, traditional moral codes, the heroes and founders of American culture" in time, all would be subject to an accelerating campaign of ideological revision waged through legislation and the media. And liberalism gained more through this campaign than moral legitimacy. It secured a self-replenishing base of support comprising those it had emancipated from social norms."

Leviathan and his enemies


If you of all people don't see 'dirty war' waging by the Left in the U.S. the way it was in the 70's Argentina than I can't help you with your problem.


 

Ah, the good old days, eh? Respect for the old, for the wealthy and powerful, , posted on October 9, 2020 at 13:36:57
tinear
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 when women knew their place! Fossil fuels, forever! 14 hour work days for the poor!

I don't know how much you know about Argentina. What exactly do you mean--- is there some connection between the military dictatorship and its brutal murdering of liberals and what you'd like to see in this country? Did you look at Michigan's latest news and say, "too bad!" Just curious.

 

Architecture is a life-long hobby of mine. , posted on October 9, 2020 at 13:39:14
tinear
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 "An external, arched support for the wall of a church or other building. Flying buttresses were used in many Gothic cathedrals (see also cathedral); they enabled builders to put up very tall but comparatively thin stone walls, so that much of the wall space could be filled with stained-glass windows". wikipedia

 

RE: Architecture is a life-long hobby of mine. , posted on October 9, 2020 at 13:51:04
rivervalley817
 yes ... that's pretty much what I said

most engineering concepts are born of their time and need

with regards,

 

RE: Ah, the good old days, eh? Respect for the old, for the wealthy and powerful, , posted on October 9, 2020 at 13:58:31
Eldragon
 In the 70s, leftist politicians in power forgave terrorists and condemned law and order, then the terrorist kept committing acts of terror, then right-wing started hunting them down ...

I am done here. This is an inappropriate forum for such a discussion.

 

LOL!, posted on October 12, 2020 at 13:08:42
E-Stat
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 This thread is far more political than anything in Central.

 

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