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John Georgiadis spills the dirt on the big-shot conductors!

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Posted on November 13, 2019 at 11:32:30
Chris from Lafayette
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 John Georgiadis was the concertmaster (or, as the Brits say, leader) of the LSO for two separate stints, the first starting from 1965 to 1973 and the second starting in 1976. He produced an apparently self-published book earlier this year, called "Bow to Baton: A Leader's Life". Because it's self-published, he has set the price rather high - I got my soft-bound copy from Amazon for $50. Whatever - it's the type of book I relish and which I can't put down. In fact, on the day that it arrived, I had to keep reading it and didn't turn out my light until 3:30 a.m.!



When you consider all the conductors who appeared with the LSO during this period, it seems to be a veritable who's who among the profession. And what makes this book so fascinating is that Georgiadis has negative things to say about almost all of them! I'll just recount a couple of his anecdotes to give you a flavor of what he has to say. One of MY favorite conductors, Antal Dorati, comes in for some harsh criticisms, as well as this story:

Before he took over the LSO as concertmaster, Georgiadis had listened to some of Dorati's recordings and was amazed at the unanimity of the orchestra he was conducting during sudden tempo shifts, say, in the middle of a movement. Under Dorati, the ensemble was incredibly precise both before the change of tempo and after it. To Georgiadis, it was almost uncanny how Dorati could keep the orchestra so exactly together in these spots. During a Mercury recording with Dorati and the LSO (where Georgiadis was in his role for the first time), he discovered how Dorati achieved this. When he came to what was supposed to be the tempo change, Dorati in fact did NOT change the tempo - Harold Lawrence (Mercury's musical supervisor and sometimes recording director) had told him not to! What Lawrence then did was to have Dorati start just before the tempo change in a subsequent take - but this time at the changed tempo. Once again, no tempo change was made at the spot where the composer had indicated it - everything just proceeded at the changed tempo of the subsequent take, and the ensemble was perfect. Lawrence would then splice the two takes together and. . . Voila! No problems at that spot! (BTW, I can't resist mentioning again that Harold Lawrence once made a recording of Teddy Abrams, now the conductor of the Nashville Symphony, and me in my living room - but Lawrence didn't use any trickery for us like he did for Dorati - LOL!)

The other eye-opener (or ear-opener?) was Georgiadis' account of rehearsing with Claudio Abbado. One of the things Abbado was famous for was conducting from memory - in fact, Georgiadis mentions one performance of the Bartok Violin Concerto (the famous one, not the early one) where the soloist used music, while Abbado conducted the orchestra from memory. Georgiadis suspects that the reason for all this memorization was that Abbado was very near-sighted and could not see the score without glasses - and he was vain enough so that he never wanted to wear glasses. So what happened in the rehearsals was that Abbado would bring the score, but would conduct from memory. But if there was a particular spot where Abbado needed to check the score, he would open it up and practically touch it to his nose in order to see the detail(s) he needed. What ended up happening was that the Abbado rehearsals became sessions for Abbado to test his memory and they consisted of Abbado plowing through the scores with hardly any stopping to talk about interpretation, balance, etc. All he wanted to do was to make sure he had the score memorized - no help to the orchestra. Surprising.

Anyway, there are dozens and dozens more of these stories, and if you don't mind the price, I would highly recommend the book. Hugely entertaining!

 

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To me, the first story says more about studio recording..., posted on November 13, 2019 at 13:04:00
SE
 than the conductor Dorati. The second story doesn't belie the fact that, for whatever the reason, Abaddo had considerable skill at memorizing scores. Whether or not Abaddo chose not to wear glasses as a matter of expediency (he simply did not have the ability, even with glasses, to sight read a score in real time) or vanity is speculation. The last point...are we saying that Abaddo spent a lifetime as a world class conductor without giving his orchestras clear interpretive directions? I don't buy that -- he must have had his methods.

None of that, of course, is my way of saying the book isn't an interesting read. We just have to read it closely to understand the subjective judgements involved.

 

The only thing is that Georgiadis was actually there (as opposed to speculating), posted on November 13, 2019 at 14:32:07
Chris from Lafayette
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 At another point in the book, Geogiadis mentions that Andre Previn (whom he seemed to respect less than he did Abbado!) had great facility with his memory and could have conducted without the score but chose not to. When asked why he didn't conduct from memory, Previn is said to have answered, "Because I can actually read the score!". If Previn actually said that, then it's an answer that he stole from Knappertsbusch who is said to have replied similarly when asked the same question. (Who knows, maybe Knappertsbusch stole his answer from some earlier conductor!)

 

RE: The only thing is that Georgiadis was actually there (as opposed to speculating), posted on November 13, 2019 at 15:00:44
PAR
 From conversations I have occasionally had with orchestral musicians few seem to have positive words about "super star" conductors*. Ask whom they rate and conductors regarded as in the second rank are more likely to have their approval. A clear beat seems to outweigh any other aspect. Perhaps some of the practitioners here could chip in?

* but maybe that's because it makes for a better anecdote.

 

"few seem to have positive words about "super star" conductors*.", posted on November 13, 2019 at 15:11:50
pbarach
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 In spite of (or perhaps in addition to) Szell's reputation as a cold taskmaster, a number of Cleveland musicians have made adulatory statements about Szell over the years as both a conductor and as someone who would go out of his way to help some members of the orchestra (e.g., paying for a player's psychiatric treatments for years).

 

Hmm, $50? I enjoy reading stories about conductors/orchestras, but not at that price. nt , posted on November 13, 2019 at 15:15:53
Rick W
 nt

 

I understand - Ms. CfL tried to dissuade me from forking over that amount! [nt] ;-), posted on November 13, 2019 at 15:34:22
Chris from Lafayette
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Of course, there's a section on Szell in the Georgiadis book too, posted on November 13, 2019 at 15:40:52
Chris from Lafayette
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 Some years after Szell had stopped guest conducting the LSO, he and Georgiadis ran into each other by chance, and Georgiadis claims he greeted Szell amiably. Szell replied, "Hmm, I see that you're back with the LSO. Let's hope you behave yourself this time." Georgiadis then comments, "I had never given him a particularly hard time, although he no doubt sensed that I wasn't his greatest fan." ;-)

 

The answer may simply be..., posted on November 13, 2019 at 19:51:31
Jim Treanor
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 that Abbado didn't want to make a spectacle of himself.


Jim

 

By George, I think you've got it! [nt] ;-), posted on November 13, 2019 at 20:08:09
Chris from Lafayette
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RE: By George, I think you've got it! [nt] ;-), posted on November 14, 2019 at 16:01:56
frankwm
 So what's his version of this (if any):-
(quoted from Philip Stuart's 2019 LSO discography)

23-24 Mar 1979 Abbey Road Studio 1
Loris Tjeknavorian
led by John Georgiadis
SCHÖNBERG Verklärte Nacht Op.4
STRAUSS Metamorphosen AV142

Unpublished: rejected as unsatisfactory performances. "A breach of discipline" was reported to the Board (LSO Minute Book, 30 Mar 79)
and it was six years before Georgiadis led another recording session.

 

Was there anyone that he DID like? Or is the book just a....., posted on November 14, 2019 at 16:31:16
TWB
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 bitch and tell? I can only imagine what he had to say about Solti.....

 

I can't even begin to tell you what he thinks of Solti!, posted on November 14, 2019 at 17:24:38
Chris from Lafayette
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 I still have not read the whole thing, but he seems to like Boult, Monteux, Ashkenazy (that's a REAL surprise to me) and a few others. And he does have positive things to say about some of the conductors of whom he's otherwise critical - for instance, Abbado could at least get a certain level of excitement at the actual concert (once he had plowed though the rehearsals - LOL!). Two conductors (Stokowski and Kertesz) come in for special praise because of their ability to adapt to the changing conditions of a concert performance. (IOW, they didn't simply rehearse the piece a certain way and then rigidly keep to that interpretation regardless of what might change in the actual concert.) OTOH, he wrote about the Kertesz set of Dvorak symphonies: "The Dvorak symphonies we thought were truly great records, although listening to them again some 20 years later, I was a bit disappointed that they weren't as good as I had remembered." As for Stokowski, there's one anecdote in the book (too long to recount now) which really puts him in a bad light, but Georgiadis still greatly respected Stokowski's conducting, even when his approach was counterintuitive, such as using karate chops sometimes to conduct Die Meistersinger Overture. I think this was the actual performance he was referring to:








View YouTube Video



He thought Previn was OK as long as he kept to RVW and Walton. Otherwise, he claimed that the LSO was frequently having to cover for him. One conductor whom I was surprised he trashed was Giulini - practically a saint among conductors - and about whom he found practically nothing good to say.

 

That's an intricate story as Georgiadis tells it, posted on November 14, 2019 at 17:55:42
Chris from Lafayette
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 That particular recording happened on the very last day of his second stint as LSO concert master. (He was leaving his post in order to study more intensively with Celibidache, whom he genuinely worshipped.) There was champagne set out for the other players in the orchestra to wish Georgiadis well in his future pursuits. At one point, the control room notified everyone that they had everything they needed, so many of the players uncorked the champagne and were starting to pour it. But no sooner had they done that than they were called back to the studio - Tjeknavorian wanted to record one section yet again. This was not made clear to the players as they rushed back to the studio. Georgiadis assumed in fact that the reason they were being called in was for Tjeknavorian to say the traditional final word of thanks for completing the recording. So he brought his champagne glass with him and set it down near his stand - this incensed the EMI people who were there, who accused him of "alcoholic arrogance"! I've just given the "condensed version" of the episode - Georgiadis adds background and detail in the book, and his retelling of the incident takes a couple of full pages.

After that episode, Georgiadis was invited back for guest appearances as the LSO concertmaster - as you say, it must have been six years before he had the first of these guest appearances.

 

I played in SFS with Ashkanazy. I liked him a lot, as did the Orch., posted on November 14, 2019 at 18:02:54
oldmkvi
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 He is a FINE Musician, and very energetic and positive. and it comes out in his Conducting.
I have one or 2 Cleveland Orch CDs with him, one especially, Don Quixote and Dance of the 7 Veils, wonderful pieces, great playing.
Never heard him play Piano!

 

Clear Beat!, posted on November 14, 2019 at 18:20:48
oldmkvi
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 Absolutely, I've seen Conductors who were rather difficult to decipher.

What's a Conductor Salad?
No Beats.

Musicians respond well to Faster/Slower, Louder/Softer, Sharper/Flatter...

 

psychiatric treatments- See, he wasn't without emotion., posted on November 14, 2019 at 18:22:29
oldmkvi
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 Guilt counts...

 

Not surprising really... I mean Solti didn't get the nickname "The Skull"...., posted on November 15, 2019 at 00:02:12
TWB
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 for no reason! I don't care though as he still is my overall fav. conductor... I too am surprised about Giulini, I believe that I have read that he was fairly well loved and respected by most of the orchestras that he conducted for as was Monteux... I seem to remember seeing an interview with a retiring member of the CSO (1st trumpet I believe) who when pushed on who his favorite conductor that he had worked for was, named Monteux but he did say nice things about Solti too... Personally, I never liked Previn... pretty sure I got rid of any recordings that I had of his.. Solti, Stokowski, Giulini and Monteux are all in the same league as far as I am concerned....

 

Not just "The Skull". . . "The Screaming Skull" [nt] ;-), posted on November 15, 2019 at 00:05:01
Chris from Lafayette
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Yeah well.... being "creative" can be a bitch sometimes!.. (nt), posted on November 15, 2019 at 00:08:09
TWB
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 NT

 

Never heard him play Piano! -- Wow!..., posted on November 15, 2019 at 05:31:30
SE
 I think he's great. Perhaps not the deepest or most interesting interpreter, but a rock solid technician and often a poet.

 

Once again, reading closely..., posted on November 15, 2019 at 05:34:56
SE
 It is this type of information that makes you question the motives or judgements of the author. Every reflection has its source.

 

Toscanini went ballistic on soloists/orchestra members numerous times. Nevertheless....., posted on November 15, 2019 at 10:37:19
Rick W
 he was considered a fantastic conductor by MANY of the soloists/orchestra members who worked under his direction and certainly his audiences and employers.

 

And moreover, unlike other "tyrant" conductors (e.g., Reiner). . . , posted on November 15, 2019 at 11:57:34
Chris from Lafayette
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 . . . Toscanini never fired any of his players.

 

That's interesting - what recordings did you hear?, posted on November 15, 2019 at 12:00:20
Chris from Lafayette
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 My own view is that Ashkenazy's early recordings were very good indeed, but, over the decades, his piano career has been one long, slow descent into mediocrity.

 

You do well at playing devil's advocate! [nt] ;-), posted on November 15, 2019 at 14:11:20
Chris from Lafayette
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RE: Clear Beat!, posted on November 15, 2019 at 14:21:25
pbarach
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 I saw Jakob Hrusa last night with the Cleveland Orchestra in Adams On the Transmigration of Souls and Mahler 4. I can't recall seeing anyone with a clearer beat--it looked exactly like the diagrams in Max Rudolf's conducting book. I hear that the musicians like him. I wasn't too fond of his interpretation of Mahler 4, and I didn't like the Adams piece.

Maazel had the clearest beat of anyone, musicians say, and he was often disliked.

Blomstedt formerly used a baton, but now he conducts everything like this, and musicians really like playing with him:

 

Actually, I heard a couple of musicians from the SF Sym. . . , posted on November 15, 2019 at 16:03:38
Chris from Lafayette
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 . . . discussing a Blomstedt guest appearance a couple of years ago - I think the repertoire was Mendelssohn's Midsummer Night's Dream music. They claimed that the only way they could stay together was to avoid looking at Blomstedt's beat! Whatever. I like a lot of Herbie's recordings anyway - especially his LGO Bruckner symphonies on SACD.

 

RE: Clear Beat!, posted on November 15, 2019 at 16:18:58
PAR
 Coincidentally I saw one of Jakub Hrusa's orchestras last night in London (the Philharmonia - JH is Principal Guest Conductor). It was conducted by Pablo Heras-Casado in a lovely programme of early 20th century French orchestral pieces ( Ravel, Debussy and Lili Boulanger).

Partly because of this thread I tried to take particular notice of his conducting style- from my strictly amateur standpoint of course. He is not a baton user and I have to say that on the occasions when I picked up the beat from his right hand it seemed as if he would often then transfer it to his left. Lots of both arms in synchrony with full shoulder and body movement too. Definitely not Strauss' right hand for baton and beat, left hand kept in waistcoat pocket. Being somewhat naive I have no idea how the players followed him, particularly in Debussy Images but I now have even more respect for their professionalism. Anyway it all seemed to work as the concert was highly successful. BTW also a fabulous performance of Ravel PC for left hand with Denis Kozhukin.

 

Not that I'm trying to change your mind..., posted on November 15, 2019 at 17:02:15
SE
 'cause I know that ain't happening!:-)

I like his Chopin cycle, Beethoven Concertos with Solti and most of his Rachmaninov recordings (especially the Previn conducted PC's and the Corelli Variations).

I'm also a big fan of his Brahms PC's with Haitink.

Just like with the Tchaikovsky/Mravinsky I don't always care for over-the-top interpretations. I'll take solid and clean most of the time. I also like the Haitink Concerbebouw Schumann symphonies (which are considered to be "plain"), so that will give you an idea of where I'm coming from (sometimes). Maybe in another thread we can compare the most "radical" choices folks have (versus the most tame) -- I don't want to bore people!

 

Joe Allard was BassClarinet with NBC Orch w/ Toscanini! Nt, posted on November 15, 2019 at 17:49:33
oldmkvi
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 /

 

Yeah - sometimes I'm in favor of middle-of-the-road myself, posted on November 15, 2019 at 19:36:25
Chris from Lafayette
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 Other times, not so much! ;-)

Regarding the Ashkenazy/Solti Beethoven Concerto cycle, I think I'm more bothered by the SQ on that recording than I am by the performance. I remember one time listening to the radio and they played Ashkenazy/Solti in the Fourth Concerto, kind of interspersed with the Cliburn/Reiner recording (same orchestra). Every time they went back to that Cliburn/Reiner recording, I was amazed at how much more natural that recording was in comparison.

 

I'll say this..., posted on November 16, 2019 at 08:04:23
SE
 There is no way to defend the sound quality on early digital and early efforts at analogue-to-digital transfer, especially from the bigs (EMI, DG, Decca) -- it's just not that good, and that's why they have made a cottage industry out of later gen remasters (which, I must admit, I have bought into with mostly positive results, but not always).

I would never do real time side-by-side comparisons between good recordings and lesser ones...it's just depressing. That said, if I stay with the lesser recording and hone in on the artistry I find that I adapt and can manage. But, like what you said (but different) other times, not so much!

 

RE: Never heard him play Piano! -- Wow!..., posted on November 16, 2019 at 09:30:39
Jim Treanor
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 Was fortunate to hear him play live at Occidental College's Thorne Hall during his 1958 U.S. tour. Riveting performance.


Jim

 

RE: Joe Allard was BassClarinet with NBC Orch w/ Toscanini! Nt, posted on November 16, 2019 at 10:25:32
gussclarinet
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 Joe Allard was my teacher for many years.

Roy

 

A True Legend in the Sax World! nt, posted on November 16, 2019 at 10:28:24
oldmkvi
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 /

 

Is he in his 80s now? He helped build SFS into what it has become., posted on November 16, 2019 at 10:31:36
oldmkvi
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 But Time Marches On...
Actually, I had trouble deciphering Sawallich at Strauss Domestic Sym, in the 80s.
But the Orch sounded great with him, and they Loved him!

 

RE: Never heard him play Piano! -- Wow!..., posted on November 16, 2019 at 10:31:43
Chris from Lafayette
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 That was when he was in his prime IMHO.

 

Yes - I thought the Blomstedt era was great for SF [nt], posted on November 16, 2019 at 10:41:30
Chris from Lafayette
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Other way of looking at it, posted on November 16, 2019 at 11:28:12
Analog Scott
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 Is that an indictment of Dorati or the LSO? Seems to me to be the latter. Conductor can lead but it's on the orchestra to follow. Abbado criticism seems a bit petty and presumptuous. BUT... interesting to see his POV and to see it so unfiltered.

 

RE: Never heard him play Piano! -- Wow!..., posted on November 16, 2019 at 12:18:07
Jim Treanor
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 He was certainly "on" that night.


Jim

 

RE: Joe Allard was BassClarinet with NBC Orch w/ Toscanini! Nt, posted on November 16, 2019 at 13:19:10
Travis
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 A music instructor at my undergraduate school was a clarinetist and, IIRC, was a student of Allard's. I knew this man in the early '60s, Ned Owen(s).


"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok

 

RE: Is he in his 80s now? He helped build SFS into what it has become., posted on November 16, 2019 at 14:39:44
pbarach
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 Blomstedt is 92. From friends associated with Cleveland Orchestra, and one friend who played in TCO for decades, the orchestra likes making music with him. I heard him conduct twice here in CLE during the last decade, and the orchestral ensemble was tight as it almost always is.

 

RE: Other way of looking at it, posted on November 17, 2019 at 00:41:58
Chris from Lafayette
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 Yes, I think the LSO was pretty notorious during this period - one incident which Georgiadis mentions is one player in the orchestra reading newspapers during rehearsals with the pages spread out to make sure the conductor (in this case, Dorati) saw it. When told to put the newspaper away, he opened the pages all the wider. Amazing arrogance!

 

RE: Other way of looking at it, posted on November 19, 2019 at 13:56:15
Analog Scott
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 I've seen it first hand

 

RE: John Georgiadis spills the dirt on the big-shot conductors!, posted on January 12, 2021 at 14:00:45
frankwm
 Died 5/1/2021.
Probably not too much opportunity to spend the book royalties,,,,,

 

"A clear beat seems to outweigh any other aspect. ", posted on January 12, 2021 at 15:12:44
pbarach
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 Former Cleveland Orchestra musicians often mention that Lorin Maazel had the clearest beat of any conductor. I haven't heard of anyone who loved working with him.

 

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