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Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME

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Posted on June 19, 2020 at 14:08:30
kkak66
Audiophile

Posts: 595
Location: Florida
Joined: April 25, 2000
Will this work or do I need bigger gauge...8 foot long.

 

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RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on June 19, 2020 at 14:30:50
The Dill
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Posts: 1716
Location: Portland, Oregon
Joined: July 1, 2004
Contributor
  Since:
February 3, 2016
I would go to 12 gauge.

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on June 19, 2020 at 20:38:27
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 3687
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
Tube or transistor?

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on June 19, 2020 at 20:42:05
Duster
Audiophile

Posts: 16742
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
16 AWG speaker wire is within the usual guidelines for most audio applications, but ordinary 16 AWG zip cord will not provide audiophile-quality performance, IME.

So if an acceptable resistance/voltage drop number is your goal, 16 AWG will work, but a pair of Merlins deserve better attention to cabling than that, kkak66.

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on June 20, 2020 at 05:12:08
Vinyl Valet
Dealer

Posts: 1160
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Joined: November 13, 2003
I use 16AWG Duelund wire in all my systems; for both interconnects and speaker cables. With speakers like the Merlins that allow bi-wiring, I use two pairs.

I own a pair of Merlin TSM-MMM speakers and they sound great with this bi-wire configuration.

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on June 20, 2020 at 07:18:05
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 12982
Joined: September 23, 1999
Contributor
  Since:
May 7, 2000
You have very nice speakers. Use the lowest gauge cables you can afford.
As always, let your ears - your ears - be your guide.
Whether or not you can observe a thing depends upon the theory you use. It is the theory which decides what can be observed. - Albert Einstein

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on June 20, 2020 at 09:56:20
kkak66
Audiophile

Posts: 595
Location: Florida
Joined: April 25, 2000
Tube...VTL ST 85

 

This stuff?, posted on June 20, 2020 at 11:31:19
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 41384
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001

???

Thanks!



 

No, this stuff..., posted on June 20, 2020 at 17:35:14
Vinyl Valet
Dealer

Posts: 1160
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Joined: November 13, 2003
See link.

 

Hmmm., posted on June 20, 2020 at 18:11:52
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 41384
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
Maybe same wire only the picture I showed is a twisted pair in in cloth?








 

Possibly..., posted on June 20, 2020 at 18:15:30
Vinyl Valet
Dealer

Posts: 1160
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Joined: November 13, 2003
Don't know, not familiar with that product. Check with Parts Connection or Duelund.

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on June 20, 2020 at 19:48:21
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 3687
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
This is tough. Heavier gauge will flatten the frequency response, how much depends on how low the gauge. The thicker gauge minimizes the interaction between the speakers bumpy impedance curve and the low damping factor of a tube amp.

But two things. You may prefer the less flat frequency response. It could the perfect tone control for you. And thicker wire usually has higher inductance which could make the highs duller. And for really flat with a tube amp you probably need something like the old Fulton Gold which is thick enough to start a jet engine.

 

RE: Possibly..., posted on June 21, 2020 at 07:34:38
Jonesy
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Posts: 2292
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  Since:
March 1, 2018
Identical wire. Links you both provided are from Partsconnexion. A double run of the single hook up wire works out cheaper than the convenient dual run insulated speaker wire.

Do you twist the single hook up wires when using for speaker wire?

Cheers!

Jonesy


"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."




 

My thoughts., posted on June 21, 2020 at 09:31:51
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 41384
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
Might give it a try on my EngarHorns. Only need a couple meters per side even bi-wired as the MonoBlocks sit close by.





 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on June 22, 2020 at 07:02:28
Chris K.
Audiophile

Posts: 300
Location: West Central Florida
Joined: August 15, 2001
I previously had a tube amp, but recently switched back to solid state, though I use both a tube preamp and tube buffer in my chain. My preference has always been toward a heavier gauge speaker wire of at least 12 gauge. I currently have Acoustic Zen Satori speaker cables which are 10 gauge. The other factor is that these use a form of OCC copper which I've found to be superior to OFC. I find the heavier gauge to give much better bass performance without compromising the mid or upper range, at least with my equipment.

 

RE: It's only $8 a meter?, posted on June 22, 2020 at 10:22:43
B. Scarpia
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May 23, 2020
Parts Connexion unit of measure 1 meter $7.99

Even if it's per foot, as I suspect, compared to their $60 a piece resistors in my crossover, that's a bargain. I would only need 12 feet. Hmmm.

What have you compared it with?

Ab Esse Ad Posse Valet Fellatio

 

+1......., posted on June 22, 2020 at 12:38:09
sherod
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Contributor
  Since:
December 0, 0000
I also use AZ Satori and Absolute in my systems and find the larger gauge to sound better.

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on June 23, 2020 at 04:15:23
Jim Smith
Industry Professional

Posts: 1095
Location: Atlanta, GA area
Joined: April 5, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
June 17, 2000
For several years, I preferred the 16 GA with my Tannoy Canterburys. When the 12 GA became available, I tried it and preferred it overall. The pricing is per cable, per meter.

IMO, this is most likely a personal taste issue.

Parts Connexion has been a great dealer - responsive and quick to ship.

I live in the Atlanta area, and PC is in Ontario.

I place an order early one day and it arrives the next day! Shipped via USPS for $12.95.

Best regards,

Jim Smith

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on June 23, 2020 at 09:28:15
marc g.
Audiophile

Posts: 2942
Location: New Orleans
Joined: October 14, 1999
"I find the heavier gauge to give much better bass performance"

After going from 2 runs of 18awg (Mapleshade Golden Helix) to 2 runs of 12awg (JW Audio Cryo Nova), I found to my surprise that the midrange is what improved the most. By improve, I'd say my soundstage has increased in size in each dimension, creating more space for sounds to develop more/better. That's not to say bass didn't improve, but not like I would have thought.

marc g. - audiophile by day, music lover by night

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on July 1, 2020 at 18:14:04
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12050
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
Big fan of thin wire. Try some 24g magnet wire. Its like $10 for hundreds of feet. worth the try. and before you nix it because its outside the normal "bigger is better", do you think there is 12g wire in your speakers? Are the voice coils 12g? I am betting most if not all the wire in the chain is not 12g. So what will 8ft of 12g get you if there are thinner runs after the 12g.

Get some sand paper to strip off the coating and wire it up burn it in a day and see.

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 2, 2020 at 07:26:11
tweaker456
Audiophile

Posts: 874
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: June 20, 2020
Yo Duster, might you weigh in on why 24 AWG just might not be optimal for loudspeaker wire, or do I have to do it to prevent inexperienced people from listening to this "information"? Thanks in advance bro.






"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." Alfred E. Neuman

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 2, 2020 at 09:19:40
Duster
Audiophile

Posts: 16742
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002



While I may disagree with the premise that it does not matter if large gauge speaker cables are implemented, there is such a thing as 24 AWG speaker wire, and folks are free to choose non-optimized speaker wire if that's what they wish to do. Dawnrazor has been a proponent of small gauge wire for quite some time now, so I'm not interested in debating the topic with him in this forum, anytime soon.

Similarly, as long as a power cord is rated for a particular load, listeners are also free to use an 18 AWG power cord instead of 12 AWG or 10 AWG products for example if they wish to. Audiophile sensibilities must be discovered by and for oneself, not stated like a hard rule that must never be broken. That type of attitude should be left for hard-nosed objectivists who tend to enjoy berating others they disagree with, not audiophile subjectivists who should live and let live, while valuing their own findings, and stating their own opinions without rancor in a public forum. Besides, I'd rather pick my own battles. Post your own opinion if you wish to, tweaker456.

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 2, 2020 at 11:24:36
tweaker456
Audiophile

Posts: 874
Location: SF Bay Area
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"folks are free to choose non-optimized speaker wire if that's what they wish to do." Duster Good enough for me.


"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." Alfred E. Neuman

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 2, 2020 at 16:09:05
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12050
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
FWIW I am advocating 24g SOLID CORE MAGNET WIRE cable so the pictured wire is not what I had in mind. That is stranded and well look at the dielectric. Its not going to sound like the one in the picture.

I am guessing you have actually tried some thin magnet wire as speakers cables and are saying it is unoptimized because of the sound?

No need to answer if you don't want to. I get it. Well aware it sounds crazy. But I have tried it and well so have others with big old amps and inefficient speakers. Heck I replaced double runs on 12g zip cord with one run of 24g magnet wire and never looked back.

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 2, 2020 at 16:34:55
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12050
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
Hey Tweaker. Have you tried it? Or are you saying its not optimum with no experience? Its a simple test and nothing bad will happen. See for your self how great it sounds. Sure you can defer to Duster as he is smart guy but live a little and try some things for your self.

And really what gauge wire is inside the speakers? How bout them voice coils?

Some 24g magwire and some sandpaper to strip the insulation will set the op back say $10 or less. Heck I can send him some to try.

FWIW it was a recipe in Allen Wrights cable cookbook. Sure he proposed it for tube amps and efficient speakers like horns but I tried it on my magnepans and pass amp (later the Halo a21 amps) which is precisely what he says not to do. I liked those cables better than my kimber 4tc or my double runs of 4g.

Sure its a super super clean sound and some systems wont jive with that but some will and maybe the OP will dig the clarity. You really need short runs like 8ft or less and that is what the op has.

And I get the "save everyone" mentality. There is an entrenched current, big cable lobby out there. But not only have I tried it on my magnepans but I actually rewired a velo sub internally with the magwire...other inmates replaced their cables with the magwire.

And fwiw this is just a test. If and when the op digs it I can show ways to dress it up to make it practical.



Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 2, 2020 at 18:52:47
tweaker456
Audiophile

Posts: 874
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: June 20, 2020
With all do respect dawnrazor I'd rather not get into it again unless the OP or someone else wants me to. I suspect you could find my ideas on this subject with a few searches. Barring interest from others not experienced in the subject I'll let Duster's sparse comment "folks are free to choose non-optimized speaker wire if that's what they wish to do." stand unadorned. A true and accurate a statement on the subject if there ever was one, IMO. That being said I'm glad you like what you're listening to, that's what it's all about from an individuals point of view. Ultimately the only thing that matters in this realm.










"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." Alfred E. Neuman

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on July 2, 2020 at 20:28:41
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 3687
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
He's using a tube amp which means low damping factor. That means every peak and dip in the impedance curve will be reflected in the speakers response significantly, probably two peaks above and below the box resonance and at least one at the mid range crossover. Some may like this, which is their right, but the term fidelity is inappropriate in this case.

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 2, 2020 at 21:53:47
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12050
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
Sure man. I am guessing you havent actually tried it. If you are ok with forming opinions without actually trying things or dogmatically dismissing a claim then we probably don't have much to talk about anyhow.

Sadly it looks like we would agree on some things based on your recent posts on other topics, but I guess we can't talk about voice coil gauges or lengths or internal wiring gauges or heck even amps wiring.

Anyhow its not just me using this stuff and getting great results.

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on July 2, 2020 at 22:09:19
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12050
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
I know I saw his system. That said all I can tell you is that the bass usually tightens up with the thin magwire and the bass resolution increases. My velodyne sub and magnepans all got "faster and more defined" with the magwire. I certainly am not going to take the time to rewire a sub if its not going to help.

Anyhow those speakers reminded me of the magnepan in that the efficiency is about the same and they make a big deal of the rf networks. I did some diy rf networks on my mags with the magnet wire and it rocked.

Not sure what the big deal is in trying something. worse thing is the dude doesn't like it. But maybe just maybe he digs it. And really its just a test. One can add strands and dress things up and end up with something really special.

How many feet of thin wire probably thinner than 24g do you think his woofers have in the voice coil? I took a 16g wire and wrapped it around half my finger and it was about 2 ft. Bet he has more than 8ft in that voice coil guessing its over 30-40ft or more. So the question is where is the concern about the dampening factor there? Why would another 8 ft magically destroy things? Not to mention the wires in the inductors.

Look at the tiny wires in this Theil speaker (can't seem to find a merlin crossover)

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 3, 2020 at 05:30:39
tweaker456
Audiophile

Posts: 874
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: June 20, 2020
Once again dawnrazor if you are interested in most of what I have to say about the subject search this forum for Tweaker456 and speaker wire. I suggest, in order to keep your blood pressure down that you abstain from doing the search and just enjoy listening to what you like.
"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." Alfred E. Neuman

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on July 3, 2020 at 17:06:22
Duster
Audiophile

Posts: 16742
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
The hookup wire of the Theil look to be 18 AWG. Not so tiny, but that's not the point. Every bit of wire makes a difference, and rationalizing about the tiny wire of a voice coil (which is essentially a motor) has nothing to do with upstream wiring. Same thing goes for the wire of an inductor which does make a difference based on what gauge is implemented for any given application.

The magnet wire has a lot going for it, and it's why you like the way it sounds, but to say 24 AWG is all you need for a high-performance speaker cable application is something I can't agree with, even if I found good things to say about the way it sounds if I were to try such a small gauge conductor for a high-current application. I never meant to step on your post, and I'm glad you enjoy the 24 AWG wire, Dawnrazor.

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on July 3, 2020 at 18:52:01
tweaker456
Audiophile

Posts: 874
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: June 20, 2020
"Every bit of wire makes a difference" Excellent answer Duster as is so often the case. What better way to get my points across than for you to weigh in on the subject? Having you present my (our) point of view could, IMHO, have a potentially greater positive effect. After all, who am I. If I ruled the world I would wind voice coils of woofers with 10 gauge wire, or at least 12, if the laws of physics would allow. Tweaker456




"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." Alfred E. Neuman

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on July 3, 2020 at 20:08:27
rivervalley817
Audiophile

Posts: 2740
Joined: June 15, 2020
'If I ruled the world I would wind voice coils of woofers with 10 gauge wire'

good thing that you talked yourself out of going into business

or out of business

be well,

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on July 3, 2020 at 20:31:47
tweaker456
Audiophile

Posts: 874
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: June 20, 2020
rivervalley, I have something for you over at jazz alley.


"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." Alfred E. Neuman

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on July 4, 2020 at 12:16:31
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12050
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004



Hey Duster,

No worries dude. Its just audio. And I was just recommending the op try something. Not sure why everyone wigs out at the thought of actually trying things. Its the scientific types that should be all for that and ironically they are almost always the 1st to dismiss things because it doesn't jive with some textbook. Thats why one has to test things.

An example of this IIRC was carvers amazing sub or whatever he called it. I recall reading that basically it was just a mistake in inputting cabinet sizes in a modeller or something. A figure all the experts would never use because well "everyone" knows it won't work. Yet to his surprise, a small enclosure could work and the rest is history.

Yeah not having any kind of blood pressure issues and thanks for the kind words.

I would like to better understand why current is an issue. Like why 8 ft of 24g magnet wire is a problem between amps and speakers, but 50+ feet as a voice coil or an inductor suddenly is OK because its a "motor' now. Its possible I don't understand but I thought it was a circuit and the electrons flow through every thing in between the neg and pos terminals.

All I know is that I tried it and the bass is much cleaner and less bloated and that was on maggies and my sub.

Also it is more than just the gauge. the mag wire has little if any insulation and while you do need to keep it away from things like the floor and power cables and its not practical naked, its a solid test to see if it works in the system.

And did you see the 6 moons review of the 47 labs cable? Why would that even be a product and a great review if the gauge was an issue?

Anyhow getting rid of time smear IMHO is a game changer and the nice thing about magwire is that its cheap and if you want make something like a Nordost cable with it.

And from the sounds of it no one has even tried it. Tweaker will use 10g magwire but omg can't possibly TRY 24g. That does sound arrogant or at least dogmatic.

Maybe its just a Maggies and horn thing, but everyone says maggies need loads of current and my Halo A21s certainly are no slouch in that dept. But I recall getting great results with some Wharfdales my buddy owned when I made him some wire.

FWIW I think the most optimal cable is probably flat ribbons if the ribbon is thin and not too thick.

Anyhow I am going to check my blood pressure and celebrate the 4th.

The Pict above is how I made my 28g speaker wires sound way better :)



Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 4, 2020 at 16:07:59
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12050
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
Duster is right about the blood pressure lol.

FWIW I once made cable for people. I used to work in the industry and once I made some speaker cables for a coworker. It was basically a 24g wire in a tube with candle gel. (long story about the candle gel and why I used it). Anyhow I gave it to him and said he could try it. I was asking $400.

Unbeknownst to me he had some top of the line monsters he got from the monster rep that went for $2500 that he compared to the wires I made.

He paid me $400 after the comparison.

Guessing the monsters were much lower in gauge and had lots more copper...

Gauge is just a small part of a cable and really man if it was super important there would be 10g wire in amps. Most have 16g. Marketers would tout the fact saying ours has "10g internal wire" or something...yet I know of no company that pimps that.

heck even Pass labs which IMHO is one of the best amp manufacturers only uses 16g in their amps...

Said another way, have you tried 24g in runs of 8ft or less? Or are you not speaking from experience?

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 4, 2020 at 16:24:16
old guy 42
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Posts: 317
Location: Eastern Pa
Joined: August 12, 2012
Contributor
  Since:
August 26, 2012



Hey DR,

A little late to the party, but back in circa 2010, I took the mag-wire challenge and they replaced Kimber 8TC (black & blue)....

The 24gauge mag wire stayed in place till 2015 when i switched to a headphone system..See if you remember this pic....

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on July 4, 2020 at 16:51:54
Duster
Audiophile

Posts: 16742
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
Hi Dawnrazor,

When it comes to cabling, there's more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak. Some folks like copper, others like silver. Solid core or stranded. Unplated or plated. Numerous dielectrics and geometries to choose from. Same thing goes for vibration control methods, with so many options available to choose from. With strong opinions of my own, there are only so many options I'm willing to try for my own wants and needs, with a number of designs that are popular to some folks, that I'm simply not willing to explore for myself. I mostly keep quiet about my opinions of such things, out of respect towards others who enjoy and advocate matters I'm either not interested in, or have experience of and don't care for when implemented within my own particular audio systems, based on my own listening tastes. Sometimes my decisions are based on direct experience, other times they are based on cable philosophy developed over the test of time, which can be considered personal bias that every listener has a right to hold onto as a way to approach cabling and other audiophile devices they either choose to explore or simply ignore.

Again, I'm not saying that what you hear is not the most enjoyable way to experience audio for your own wants and needs, since there are a lot of things going for solid core magnet wire with an enamel dielectric; I get it. Adding more 24 AWG conductors within a bundle opens-up a can of worms when it comes to the cable resonance of litz wire, so using a single solid core wire with a low-mass dielectric that's smaller than 22-21 AWG with minimal skin effect to deal with is an attractive idea, and I think it's the primary reason why you enjoy the simple DIY build for your own wants and needs; I get it. I have nothing but respect for your right to have a personal approach to cabling, and I don't want to come across as being so critical of it that others should not try it for themselves, and make a decision based on personal evaluation, if that's what they are interested in doing. Audio cables tend to have compromises, with no standard offering that everyone can agree upon. Same thing goes for all of the different kinds of audio components to choose from. To each his own, and listeners should feel grateful that there are so many options that they can select for their own audiophile wants and needs.

BTW, what is the purpose of the thick outer layer implemented for the shotgun run? Is there a single 24 AWG wire per polarity involved in the design?

Best regards,

Duster

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 4, 2020 at 17:06:10
Duster
Audiophile

Posts: 16742
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
Cool platform for the Bryston, old guy 42. It's similar to the dual-layer tonewood platform I use with a Bryston for my customized stereo subwoofer system. I removed the stock plate amplifiers from the back of a pair of KEF subwoofers, covered the cutouts on the back of the enclosures with 18 gauge steel plates, and instead use an active crossover with a Bryston stereo power amplifier placed on a thick Maple board supported with Herbie's Audio Lab pads, positioned on top of a thick Eucalyptus board spiked to the floor.

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on July 4, 2020 at 17:48:28
rivervalley817
Audiophile

Posts: 2740
Joined: June 15, 2020
can you narrow this down & address the impedance issue of wire gauge from his 60W tube amplifiers with low damping being part of the reflected load it will 'see' in tandem with his Merlins? I believe that is the feedback the OP seeks.

I'm thinking that the heavier the gauge he can use in the 8' runs he referenced the better the overall synergy of speaker + cabling + OPT

your thoughts?

regards,



 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 4, 2020 at 18:58:24
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12050
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
Yo dude I can't stop looking at your pussy :)

I remember that I think and nice job on the wires. Did I see right you have another set that has some in a "ribbon" format and twisted together? that is super cool bro. 8tc was better than my 4tc. Reptisand!!! I bought about 100 lbs of that stuff! I put it in my tubes with the cables (which were 2 30g runs twisted with teflon tape) to help with vibrations. but later found out about reptisand and how it can help with rf. That is a winning combo IME.

Again I have "hat envy"!!!

How about your headphones? Any magwire there?

I have balanced ICs and some headphone cables all using 28g magwire. Its super clean and spacious. Bass is amazingly detailed and there was a poster in the mug forum who talked about how clear the magwire was. Yep thats the deal. Super clear and if you have addressed other things like footers and have solid equipment then yep the magwire can work out great.

kudos to you for being open minded and trying things!!

In his book the Cable Cook Book, ALlen Wright talks about a componet that still had one stranded wire in it and when he rewired it it was such a big difference. One day I will replace the stock wire on my cans and see. I know that is thin stranded wire and it needs to go.

And I know from my own life going from speakers to cans that it can be a challenge. But hopefully you are enjoying what cans can do that speakers cant.

Betting your system when it was up sounded great. you have always had a attention to detail that I respect!!!

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on July 4, 2020 at 20:08:45
Duster
Audiophile

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Location: Pacific Northwest
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The OPs system involves both tube and solid state power amplification to choose from.

I would suggest Furez FZ124AS 12/4 bulk cable wired cross-connected with a star quad geometry if he just wants to choose an inexpensive option.

The Furez FZ124AS features a foamed/cellular dielectric and the stranded conductor features a coarser gauge core which affects both cable resonances and provides a firmer conductor bundle while still remaining very flexible, IMO.

It's the best inexpensive stranded speaker cable I've experienced.

See link:

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on July 4, 2020 at 20:23:38
rivervalley817
Audiophile

Posts: 2740
Joined: June 15, 2020
sounds reasonable to me ...

regards,

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on July 5, 2020 at 02:37:18
tweaker456
Audiophile

Posts: 874
Location: SF Bay Area
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Me too rv. 2x12AWG= 9AWG




"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." Alfred E. Neuman

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 5, 2020 at 08:14:02
old guy 42
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  Since:
August 26, 2012
Hey Duster,

With the Bryston, maple and Herbies, I'll bet your subwoofer system sounds fabulous!!!!!

Enjoy....

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 5, 2020 at 17:20:39
tweaker456
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Posts: 874
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10 AWG Copper Magnet Wire MW0391 - 7.5 lb Magnetic Coil Amber

"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." Alfred E. Neuman

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 6, 2020 at 01:52:41
old guy 42
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Hey DR,

I didn't know my pussy was in the pic when I snapped it..LOL....

Hey now DR, the repti-sand, tubes, magnet wire were all your ideas. As far as the "ribbon" config goes, that was inmate JBen's idea. The only thing I did was twist the mag wire in a star quad configuration, and that was not my idea either.

Will probably get around to the mag-wire on the cans, but not till I finish with the brushes. The 3M maroon pads are scheduled to be delivered today, and I look forward to experimenting with same.

Did you get new connectors for the BBE yet???

Hat envy again!!..I will send you a few..LOL...

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 7, 2020 at 11:56:16
tweaker456
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Posts: 874
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"heck even Pass labs which IMHO is one of the best amp manufacturers only uses 16g in their amps..." Dawnrazor, maybe you can find out why Pass "only" uses 16awg in his amps, and if that statement is even true and if he uses only 16awg for the power supply or if he uses 16awg for outputs or both. You can ask him yourself. He states that he answers all email eventually. nelson@passlabs.com


"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." Alfred E. Neuman

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 7, 2020 at 15:32:44
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12050
Location: N. California
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Hey Old dude,

I never got a chance to try some of jbens ideas but I was going to do a sort of nordost clone. My thought was to have multiple strands side by side, paint it with some C37 and wrap with some teflon. Would have been a pain to make but probably would sound awesome.

Anyhow glad you had the roller balls to try my hairbrained ideas. Seems like audiophiles bail out at a simple test these days.

Anyhow what connectors on the BBE? I have some neutrix XLRs going in and out. Duster pointed out some pricey alternatives, but the challenge with making your own wires is that when they sound good enough that is enough and more don't quite get made. I made 3 different sets for my headphones and only use one. Its winning characteristic is that its the longest...but its soo clear and detailed but not sterile. Bass resolution is amazing.

Here is what is going in and out of the BBE. FWIW I would easily use this config for speaker cables though each run would be the same polarity.


Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 7, 2020 at 17:07:41
Dawnrazor
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No need to ask.

Its written on his diy site a few times in the directions to some projects (where the wire is specified)

For the DIY class A amp: "Use 16-gauge wiring in the power supply and amplifier output connections, while 24-gauge wire is adequate for other connections."

When I was first using the thin magwire I had a carver A500x and then a Pass x-150. I have looked inside the pass and dont recall seeing 12g wire. Maybe it was there but I don't think so and why would Nelson spec 16g for the diy stuff and use something different in his own amps? He doesn't strike me as some one who would do that.

My Parasound A21s are in storage or i would check them out.

And knowing just a bit about how the audiophile marketing teams work, if there were 12g in amps it would be a headline and on the amps specs sheet and everyone would play the gauge game. Maybe I missed it because I took a break but I don't recall amps even talking about the wire gauge in their amps. Or speakers for that matter.

Did you try it yet? Or are you just going to do thought experiments and snipe?

If you have short runs like the op give it a try. And while it has been reported that I somehow think a run of 24g solidcore magwire is optimum, its not, but it is a good start. Geometry and construction play a big part as well. But like I said it replaced my 4tc...



Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 7, 2020 at 17:38:07
tweaker456
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Thanks for the reply. Still, if you think he is being inconsistent you can always contact him and ask anything you want. I myself am impressed with the recommendation of the use of 16 AWG in the output.Likely considerably larger than many other amps would use would be my guess. His recommendation for diy people isn't necessarily what he would use or always use. There are always price considerations in a commercial product along with the difficulty of using very large gauge wires to say go from a board to the output devices. I have done experimentation with different gauge wire in different situations.First experiments were egged on by Pierre Sprey a long long time ago. You like wire even thinner than Sprey uses. My take on it,once again, can be found by a search on this asylum. Needless to say I differ from Sprey along with the vast majority of the rest of the audio world. Are you a jazz fan dawnrazor? Tweaker456
"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." Alfred E. Neuman

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 7, 2020 at 17:51:47
Duster
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Posts: 16742
Location: Pacific Northwest
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Hi Dawnrazor,

The VR012 XLR connector is what I chose as my final option after a number of XLRs evaluated. Hollow silver plated tellurium copper male pins, Teflon dielectric, but unfortunately a poorly designed strain relief mechanism, with a very large opening and minimal clamping force, but it's not a deal breaker, since I handle my cables with great care, never yanking them out of a jack. I use enough 3M Nexcare Flexible Clear First Aid Tape (adhesive-backed perforated polyethylene film tape) wrapped around the end of the cable to provide a somewhat sufficient grip for the task.

See link:

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 8, 2020 at 03:18:20
old guy 42
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  Since:
August 26, 2012
Hey DR,

I need to update my brain and restart it....After re-reading your other post this AM about the crash the Hafler took, I see it was the shitty 3.5 & 6.3 mm "adapters" you mentioned. I thought it was the BBE that took the swan dive....

On JBen's ribbon, I believe it was called the "8-4-2" IIRC....He used the "Shacks" 3 pack of 22-26 and 30 gauge mag wire. It consisted of 8- 22, 4-26, and 2-30 gauge wires. He kept them separate from each other.

Sorry for that error of mine about the BBE....

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 8, 2020 at 06:50:25
Dawnrazor
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Posts: 12050
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Hey Man you are not wrong. The Hafler went first and the BBE jumped in afterwards...maybe I need to reboot.



Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 8, 2020 at 07:10:16
Dawnrazor
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Have you seen the pricing on the pass gear? Not sure mr. Pass is worried about price considerations. But if he is wow I am glad he is!

Jazz fan? Nah. I have some disks. Last night I was listening to some Kendra shank that was recorded pretty well. Patricia barber is one of my test tracks. But jazz mostly bores me and its right behind classical in that regard.

These days I have become a sort of bass head listening to some techno stuff for lack of a better word. Mostly alternative and 80s goth really. Some dark metal and 80s punk.

Did you also use the Sprey concept of extra long speaker cables? I never ever got that idea.

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 8, 2020 at 07:18:56
Dawnrazor
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Thanks dude. That strain relief situ would be a deal breaker for the thin wire I use I think. One of the downsides with the magwire is that its fragile unless you dress it up right. One reason for the cotton is to help...

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 8, 2020 at 11:57:03
tweaker456
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"Not sure mr. Pass is worried about price considerations." Well you might not be but I sure am sure. Will take that bet any day of the week.




"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." Alfred E. Neuman

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 8, 2020 at 13:09:44
Duster
Audiophile

Posts: 16742
Location: Pacific Northwest
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Actually, the 3M Nexcare tape wrap would be so thick, there's no way that the VR012 could damage the exposed mag wire. You don't need the proverbial grip of death to secure a cable of any type with the VR012 strain relief mechanism. It's just not a heavy duty design, Dawnrazor.

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 8, 2020 at 18:41:13
Dawnrazor
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Location: N. California
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i probably don't understand what you mean. It just sounds like you are wrapping tape around the wire to fill the big opening. Not worried about the magwire being damaged by the connector. From what I see there is nothing to hold the wires in place. IRRC we had this conversation already and I forgot how it works:)....I wont be using them so its not worth your time to jog my memory.

Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: ATTENTION DUSTER-SAN!!, posted on July 8, 2020 at 19:21:30
Duster
Audiophile

Posts: 16742
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
No worries. All that's required is enough tape wrapped around the small diameter DIY cable you built so the compression fitting can grab onto it. The wires can be very safely secured, as long as you don't abuse the cables like a toy. Another suggestion is to try the gold plated or silver plated Switchcraft XLR I previously recommended instead of the Neutrik XLR. It's the only XLR I totally abandoned due to how it sounds. Yet another orphaned set of audio connectors in my collection, Dawnrazor.

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on July 18, 2020 at 18:21:42
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 14595
Location: So. Cal.
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I won't argue how this might sound but 8 feet of 24ga speaker wire will have .4 ohms of resistance.

Assuming an 8 ohm speaker there will be a loss of power and a loss of damping.

If your amp is rated at a damping factor of 100 ( .08 ohms output impedance) the .4 ohms of resistance in the wire will to added to the output impedance of the amplifier and the effective damping factor will become 16.66

The loss of power will be small, about 1/2db.

Subjectively the result might be pleasing but the system will not be functioning as well as it would with less resistance in the speaker line.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on July 19, 2020 at 06:43:47
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 14595
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
"...the bass usually tightens up with the thin magwire and the bass resolution increases..."

Subjectively, that's up to you. Objectively, the other way around. The resistance on the wire will decrease the amplifiers "hold" on the speaker and the bass response will be less controlled.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on July 23, 2020 at 09:26:07
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12050
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
The assumption is that the formula adequately describes what is going on. If that is the case than no one would ever hear the bass tighten up. But it does. And its not just me that hears the difference.

There is another theory of cables that predicts what I am hearing in the bass. Its obvious to anyone the difference in bass resolution.

Anyhow if you haven't tried it well then you won't know. Maybe this will get you to give it a go since it adequately describes what actually happens. Look at conclusion I for instance:





Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on July 23, 2020 at 09:29:15
Dawnrazor
Audiophile

Posts: 12050
Location: N. California
Joined: April 9, 2004
how does a voice coil not kill dampening factor? They are thin wire and longer than 8ft. How about planar speakers with hundreds of feet of thin wire in the circuit?



Cut to razor sounding violins

 

RE: Damping Factor, posted on July 25, 2020 at 09:37:53
tweaker456
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The issue is not fundamentally wire gauge (of the voice coil) but resistance. The resistance of the voice coil is part of the calculation of the DF along with the resistance of the speaker cable and of course gauge effects resistance. Here is wikipedia's explanation. It might be of interest to see Tre's calculation. Wonder where Tre is?? EDIT: It looks like the output impedance of the amp is likely to be about .1. 8/.1=DF of 80. 8/.5= DF of 16 This is assuming that one adds the resistance of the wire to the output impedance figure of the amp. If you put the resistance of the wire in the numerator than it would increase the DF. I wonder why it's done this way? The wire isn't part of the amp it is what the amp "sees ".


"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." Alfred E. Neuman

 

RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME, posted on July 25, 2020 at 10:09:07
tweaker456
Audiophile

Posts: 874
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: June 20, 2020
Tre, why is the resistance of the speaker cable added to the denominator and not the numerator as is clearly the case?






"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." Alfred E. Neuman

 

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