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Question about dynamic range and IC electrical parameters

107.77.111.75

Posted on February 2, 2017 at 10:44:54
3+4=5
Audiophile

Posts: 384
Location: Midwest
Joined: December 24, 2016
I bought some interconnects last year.
Spent a lot on them.
One of the main things which popped out immediately with the new IC was the increase in dynamic range

This change with the new IC that I do not understand, is the increase in dynamic range. Hell it was actually ANNOYING! I mean setting the vol the same as before, the low level music, (Classical) was too soft, and still the loud portions became louder than before. It took awhile to get used to it.

And I really am WTF how can this be?

So the question is: how can a single pair of IC change the dynamic range, all by themselves?
I had used a few different cables prior to this new one, and none of them made a difference in this parameter.
But THIS one it was a big deal, and a clear difference in actual dynamic range, easily repeatable switching back.

And no I do not want to say which brand. I want to discuss how an IC can alter the dynamic range in electrical terms. Not futz about brands.

 

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RE: Question about dynamic range and IC electrical parameters, posted on February 2, 2017 at 12:54:46
Awe-d-o-file
Manufacturer

Posts: 16802
Location: 100 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
Contributor
  Since:
October 31, 2005
I guess we'd need to know the associated gear because of output levels, input and output impedance which could play a role and what each were made of in terms of type of wire, gauge etc. Are you sure it wasnt just primarily an increase in HF because I can't see increased dynamic range as annoying. Not saying you are wrong........


ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

Dynamic range as annoying.. Due to being suprised and wondering what is going on..., posted on February 2, 2017 at 14:21:41
3+4=5
Audiophile

Posts: 384
Location: Midwest
Joined: December 24, 2016
What happened was I swap the cable. Then, at the same exact spot on the volume control. (I mean after years one really gets to KNOW where on the volume one wants in advance.. Yes)
Well, no.. Listening to wide range Classical, I hear the soft passages starting the piece as barely audible.. So I turn it up.. Then the full orchestra comes on and BLAM!!! it it too damn loud!

THIS is what I mean by annoying.

I guess I ENJOYED the compressed dynamics I had for years and years..
And suddenly I have to get used to a whole new WIDER range.
((Old and cranky, does NOT like surprises... ))

Now, months later, I am used to it as it is now. But back when I got the cable, (fuming WTF) I guess I just was not ready for a REAL improvement...)

As for the components, etc. I cannot see HOW telling anyone anything could matter at all.
Those things would totally move the question away, as you are trying to do. (You cannot see HOW it could be? And to your 'it must be some other thing')

So no I will not list a damn thing. LOL

And again ask. What could make a cable, electrically, be able to bring a major increase in dynamic range? That many other cables failed to have.

And no nothing was broken or mis-wired... All cables used from pre to amp were balanced and the same long length
(that is a hint.. The cable position in question is pretty long... well over one meter. ((But I feel like even saying this is a cheat, so folks can 'make up' fantasy about the length, instead of working on the actual question))


Added: I had tried, long ago a 1/2 as long cable, strung direct from pre to amp instead of running it around stuff. it also had the old lesser dynamic range..

 

RE: Dynamic range as annoying.. Due to being suprised and wondering what is going on..., posted on February 2, 2017 at 16:02:51
Awe-d-o-file
Manufacturer

Posts: 16802
Location: 100 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
Contributor
  Since:
October 31, 2005
so dont list a damn thing even though it might help. i didnt ask for make a model i asked for construction and design parameters. it will help and i ask with no intention of saying it is something else but as data gathering to solve a conundrum. sorry to hear you dont seem to like like better dynamic range and didnt instantly embrace it. It is a big thing that separates music as performed vs recorded and played through electronics and seekers of better sound search to achieve. if a chef made a dish different than you had ever had it before the ingredients would be a way to understand why. same follows here. now do you understand?


ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

Seems to me..., posted on February 2, 2017 at 17:32:26
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 1194
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
you're in the best position to answer your own question. You have the answer (cable) in your hands and the science behind it sounds expensive.

And now LOL you won't share any information AND/OR tell us what this great cable is so we can share/discuss it with you.

Oops. I've been spending too much time writing this post instead of "working" on your question.

And I will... as soon as I figure out what screws are used in a Lavardin amp.

Also Old and Cranky (and in good fun)!

Jonesy

"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."

 

Seems to me... "I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it." applies nt, posted on February 2, 2017 at 22:20:05
3+4=5
Audiophile

Posts: 384
Location: Midwest
Joined: December 24, 2016
.

 

RE: Question about dynamic range and IC electrical parameters, posted on February 3, 2017 at 03:43:22
Paul Wilson
Reviewer

Posts: 38
Location: Southeast USA
Joined: October 7, 2014
I've talked with a number of cable manufacturers and they are mostly in agreement with one design goal -- the trick in cabling is to do the best job possible at doing nothing. The closer to nothing you get usually means a higher purchase cost. Most cable companies (there are exceptions) want to make a product that does the best job possible at not changing, altering, modifying, or adding any sonic colorations of their own to the reproduced signal. So the goal is to basically do nothing. Now I certainly cannot say with any certainty but is it perhaps possible that the increased dynamics you are hearing is simply a byproduct of the cable doing a better job of doing nothing? Could it possibly be that what you are really hearing is a more accurate presentation of the actual recording and one that is not influenced by a higher noise floor, increased distortion, and other sonic influences brought on by cable design? Of course, all this is speculation not knowing any details but it would probably be worth some investigation on your part. It might help answer your question. I would be curious to know if before buying this "expensive" interconnect did you believe that cables make a difference in a system or not? If so, have you therefore verified your beliefs? And if not, do you still feel the same way?

In any event, happy listening.

 

LOL! I liked your first reply better..., posted on February 3, 2017 at 07:11:49
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 1194
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
you shouldn't have removed it.

Sorry for your selective acceptance of advice, probing, and suggestions from "some cable asylum". We're trying.

But I'll say it again... the answer is in your hands. You have a situation where you might consider getting information from the dealer/manufacturer. And certainly you have criteria/specs/build which led you to purchase them in the first place. The cable Asylum would sincerely be interested in knowing, now that you brought the topic up.

Isn't that the point of the Asylum? It's not a quiz show where you are both master and winner.

By the way... you did buy these from a reputable dealer, and not eBay? If they are counterfeit, could be harder to help you.

Always enjoying your posts.

Cheers #5!

Jonesy



"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."

 

RE: Question about dynamic range and IC electrical parameters, posted on February 3, 2017 at 08:36:41
lokie
Audiophile

Posts: 1207
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003
Not sure if this is related but... just for kicks I hooked up my multi-meter to my interconnects and to my surprise it read 4ohms. I hooked up a cheapo AV cable and it was .08ohms... which is what I expect.

Hmmm...??

 

Drop ship from the manufacturer. And I am not worried about an answer, posted on February 3, 2017 at 09:12:20
3+4=5
Audiophile

Posts: 384
Location: Midwest
Joined: December 24, 2016
This phenomenon was an interesting side thing. I had an experience. I really did not think about it much.
THen I though maybe someone could give me a bit of insight.
The fact it was turned into a pot of shit.. Well, what should I expect?
True I am 'holding back' But as I wrote, In my mind the actual parts and any discussion of the parts would really not forward any thoughts on what the cable itself be doing.
Now maybe it IS that all the other cables I used were restricting dynamic range? Well OK, but HOW? What exactly is it electrically, that does this in a wire. Seems simple enough!

 

Yes, and "Belief cables made a difference".. 50 years in audio and eventually yes I came to that conclusion, posted on February 3, 2017 at 09:39:59
3+4=5
Audiophile

Posts: 384
Location: Midwest
Joined: December 24, 2016
I agree with your first premise.

Also...
The first real Hell YES wire for me was in a powercord. The first thing which I clearly heard a difference which was repeatable. (ADDED: and the ONLY REASON I bought the aftermarket cord was it was cheaper than I could have made one for myself!)

I began to notice slight differences in the IC I already owned when I bought a pile of $5,000 a pop components, and an expensive power conditioner.

I 'took a leap' and decided to try a new wire, $350 a pair. They clearly were better than my old stuff. I bought several of them. And dumped my old wires.(that was two years ago)
Then I had a bit of cash, and after two years of thinking about buying the expensive cable pair, I jumped.

IMO 'belief' is not the right word . The gradual realization, from experience, that an IC can make a difference in the sound is what I would call it.
"Belief' is so fraught with negative connotations, In my mind it means blind clinging to some philosophy, instead of thinking about reality.
So asking me if I 'believed'.. no.

 

Fair enough..., posted on February 3, 2017 at 09:50:58
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 1194
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
Construction, metallurgy, dielectric, shielding, gauge, direction, will all have an effect on background noise, interference, microphonics and the overall sound. Even the terminations. We all know that.

We also know that cables sound different depending on the components. So now we are talking impedance, capacitance and inductance.

The cables you are now using increase dynamic range. I guess if nothing else, it goes to show that cables do sound different.

Kudo's to the manufacturer. And a good find for you.

Maybe someone on the Asylum can still shed some light on the "theory" of restrictions and revelations of dynamic range in cable design. Unlike using golden rules to build speaker cabinets, I don't know if anything exists for cables.

Cheers!

Jonesy









"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."

 

RE: Drop ship from the manufacturer. And I am not worried about an answer, posted on February 3, 2017 at 12:00:08
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 4713
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
Contributor
  Since:
January 14, 2010
Cable impedance reacting with the source impedance and the load impedance
will determine what a cable will sound like. Cable impedance is resistance, inductance and capacitance of the cable. Enclosure of the wire also effects the impedance. These parameters were why people wanted to know the equipment you are using. The same cable will sound different with different equipment
Alan

 

Well, I should have known there is not idea what could cause it. Same as:, posted on February 5, 2017 at 11:39:26
3+4=5
Audiophile

Posts: 384
Location: Midwest
Joined: December 24, 2016
PRAT, or several other mysterious things we seek and which have no scientific analysis nailing down HOW it is achieved.

I would think for dynamic range, perhaps a better way to explore would be things that constrict it?
Understanding those might give a general sense of WTF is going on.Certainly devices are used all the time which constrict dynamic range (in CD mastering etc)

 

4ohms is alot/massively high, posted on February 5, 2017 at 14:43:43
PingPing
Audiophile

Posts: 170
Joined: May 22, 2014
"Not sure if this is related but... just for kicks I hooked up my multi-meter to my interconnects and to my surprise it read 4ohms. I hooked up a cheapo AV cable and it was .08ohms... which is what I expect."

Are your ICs 10mtrs long because 4ohms is alot/massively high?

 

OK. Let's go with straight forward electrical "resistance", posted on February 6, 2017 at 13:02:56
Jonesy
Audiophile

Posts: 1194
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Joined: September 1, 2005
The lower the resistance, the more dynamic range, or better electricity flow, you are going to get.

So that ties in nicely with "things that constrict".

One of the other posters mentioned measuring the cable. Give it a try when you have a chance. Use a DVM and test the resistance from cable centre on one end to the centre at the other end. Also do the same with the outer collars.

Then do the same with your older cables.

Be interesting to see how the measurements compare.

Cheers!

Jonesy

"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."

 

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