Amp/Preamp Asylum

Looking for a new Amp or Preamp? If you're after tubes, post over here.

Return to Amp/Preamp Asylum


Message Sort: Post Order or Asylum Reverse Threaded

Help me scratch this preamp itch....

99.177.204.36

Posted on October 28, 2024 at 10:11:38
ABliss
Audiophile

Posts: 1565
Joined: March 16, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
August 3, 2002
I don't know why but of all the various components of my systems over the years, the preamp has been the most difficult to keep long-term.
I have been up and down in prices, brands, no preamp, back to preamp, tube, solid state. They all seem to be great at first then they become the victim.
Right now I went back to the little Parasound Zpre3 from my second system.
It checks all the boxes as far as features I need, and is really a very good sounding preamp for the money. I think maybe I should just get another one for this system and be satisfied, but I am going to make one last go at something that's a long-term keeper.

So here is my short list that I have been agonizing over for weeks.

Benchmark LA4, checks all the boxes for inputs and outputs, good reviews, not crazy about the big screen.

PS Audio StellarGold, checks all the boxes, good reviews, a bit over my price range unless I go for the refurbished.

Hegel P20, good reviews, no 12v triggers, seems the remote doesn't change the inputs.

That's it, I haven't heard any of them, I know I could buy and try, but I really hate to have to return stuff.
I know some of you guys have used these before, I am leaning towards the PS Audio especially since I heard a less cluttered remote is available.

 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
Add the Pass Labs P12 to your list *, posted on October 28, 2024 at 21:37:25
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 14023
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999


Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

RE: Help me scratch this preamp itch...., posted on October 29, 2024 at 04:06:31
Ozzy
Audiophile

Posts: 7622
Joined: September 21, 1999
The only one I've heard on your list is the Benchmark. At first it seemed very dynamic and transparent. After extended listening the sound became forward and fatiguing. It was not a "natural" sound at all.

Any reason why there are no tube preamps on your list?





Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: Help me scratch this preamp itch...., posted on October 29, 2024 at 07:58:54
Tom
Audiophile

Posts: 2128
Location: Arizona
Joined: February 27, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
March 16, 2002
PS Audio is apparently closing out the BHK Preamp. 50% off at $3499 (which is $500 less than the new Stellar Gold).

 

RE: Add the Pass Labs P12 to your list *, posted on October 29, 2024 at 08:57:06
fstein
Audiophile

Posts: 3053
Location: fstein
Joined: May 18, 2006
Is the Schitt Kara beneath contempt?

 

RE: Help me scratch this preamp itch...., posted on October 29, 2024 at 10:09:00
ABliss
Audiophile

Posts: 1565
Joined: March 16, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
August 3, 2002
I have had tube preamps, and the tube rolling just wears me out, although I was thinking about the Rogue RP1.

 

Schiit Kara is excellent....., posted on October 29, 2024 at 19:48:26
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 47779
Location: Maidenhead Grid Square DM79
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
February 2, 2002

My Schiit Kara sounds excellent but it's a bit stripped down compared to the Pass XP-12. No digital display and the volume knob position is hard to read from across the room. It doesn't carry the same audiophile cred (or price!) as the Pass Labs. But Kara sounds great regardless of its modest $699 price. A used Pass XP-12 will go for $3500 - $4000 USD.



 

RE: Help me scratch this preamp itch...., posted on October 29, 2024 at 19:57:33
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 47779
Location: Maidenhead Grid Square DM79
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
February 2, 2002
The Benchmark is remarkably neutral and infinitely transparent. Some might call it boring but it has no color of its own. Perhaps this is why so many reviewers have them in their systems. That and the fact that you can 'level match' each input to within 0.5dB so it makes for easy A/B comparison of source components going into the preamp. I think the Benchmark has one of the best user interfaces in the bizz. Very flexible but once setup you don't have to 'see' all those details and what you interact with on a daily basis is simple and straight forward. If you prefer a little 'personality' to the sound the Benchmark might not be for you. I had one. It was great.

I am now running one of two preamps. The Schiit Kara at $699 is more 'robust' and 'full-bodied' vs the Benchmark with nice midrange and low-end punch. However, the user interface is very basic with a small metal remote control. The Volume knob position is hard to see from across the room but not a big deal for some. At only $699 you can paint a DOT on the Volume knob and not worry about it. And given your budget, $699 is a drop in the bucket and a low-risk audition for your system.

I also run the Eversolo DMP-A6 Streamer/DAC/Preamp. The balanced preamp section with discrete relay switched resistors is excellent with user selectable 0.5db or 1.0dB steps. I like 1.0dB. The user interface is very good and the unit creates a nice sound stage. Not as robust sounding in the lower mids as the Schiit Kara but not quite as 'neutral' as the Benchmark.

I had the Pass Labs XP-10 many years ago. It was outstanding and I hear the XP-12 is even better. But are you willing to shell out $3500+ for a used one?

I have nothing against the PS Audio Stellar Gold but it seems a bit over priced to me at $4000. PS Audio will often put their gear on sale on certain holidays so you'll see price drops now and then throughout the year.... which instantly accelerates depreciation on units purchased at full MSRP. As someone already mentioned they have the higher-end BHK Preamp on close-out for $3500 which is 50% off.

Good luck!





View YouTube Video




 

RE: Help me scratch this preamp itch...., posted on October 30, 2024 at 08:26:34
G Squared
Audiophile

Posts: 8840
Location: Washington, DC Metro Area
Joined: November 16, 2004
Contributor
  Since:
May 23, 2023
These are loved by their owners.
Gsquared

 

Just got a good deal from PS Audio..., posted on October 30, 2024 at 10:31:18
ABliss
Audiophile

Posts: 1565
Joined: March 16, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
August 3, 2002
Thanks for your response Abe, I knew you liked the Benchmark, and I came close to grabbing one of the many used ones I see, but I was a bit scared it would be too sterile like the Topping pre90 I tried.
The Schitt is a bit too basic looking and no trigger output, a feature I have come to really like. I also had a hard time once trying to return one of thier dacs. Just couldn't get through to anyone, I ended up just selling it.

Anyway, I just spoke to PS Audio and they are giving me a $1000 trade in value on two items I was trying to sell for less. So I am getting the StellarGold refurbished preamp for $2000, with warranty.
So I think it's a deal I couldn't refuse. They never even asked the condition the equipment was in.

 

RE: Just got a good deal from PS Audio..., posted on October 30, 2024 at 12:23:32
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 47779
Location: Maidenhead Grid Square DM79
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
February 2, 2002

That's a great deal on your PS Audio Stellar Gold! Good buy at that price. PS does offer a nice trade-in allowance even on very old gear. Here's a funny story. They offered a big trade-in allowance on "any working DAC" but I didn't have one. I bought the cheapest $15 DAC I could find on Amazon and traded it in. This was many years ago. They honored my trade-in 'trick' but they have since 'fixed' their trade-in program so the trade allowance is based on the MSRP of the item you trade in.

The Schiit Kara does lack 12v trigger which is something I would normally use. In my case, the amp has audio sense so it will turn ON after detecting a couple seconds of audio on its inputs. The Schiit Kara sounds nice but it is VERY basic.

Enjoy your Stellar Gold preamp. Let us know how you like it.


 

RE: Just got a good deal from PS Audio..., posted on October 30, 2024 at 15:27:11
ABliss
Audiophile

Posts: 1565
Joined: March 16, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
August 3, 2002
I am surprised they give the original value, most dealers that take trade ins won't even give fifty percent of what you paid.
It will be my first PS Audio major component, I have only had thier power cables and outlets , so I am hoping it a real keeper.
I was turned off by the big clustered multi purpose remote at first, but the sales guy is replacing it with a much nicer simpler one from the Strata Intergrated amp,after I told him the big one was a deal breaker.

 

RE: Just got a good deal from PS Audio..., posted on October 30, 2024 at 18:34:27
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 47779
Location: Maidenhead Grid Square DM79
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
February 2, 2002
Hmm, I wonder if the Remote from the Strata will have all the necessary functions for the Stellar Gold.

I will often use a cheap programmable learning remote and program just the buttons I will need on a daily basis. This also keeps the original remote in pristine condition as I store it away with the batteries removed.

Don't laugh. I have a few these around the listening room. You program buttons on it by pointing your original remote at it. It 'learns' those button presses.

Chunghop Learning Remote $9 Amazon:

You can disregard the button labels and program each to whatever you want it to be.


 

RE: Just got a good deal from PS Audio..., posted on October 30, 2024 at 19:04:23
ABliss
Audiophile

Posts: 1565
Joined: March 16, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
August 3, 2002
That's a good idea with the cheap remote. The sales guy said the Strata remote does all the functions except one, selecting one of the xlr inputs, which I probably will never use anyway. So we'll see, can't wait.

 

Preamps the Unsung Hero, posted on October 30, 2024 at 21:56:51
Jotaro
Audiophile

Posts: 167
Location: Kyushu Japan
Joined: June 6, 2024
Preamps can be difficult, sometimes they have too much character, others not enough. Characteristics like drive/punch, transparency, while at the same time trying to uphold the 'wire with gain' philosophy is difficult.

With that said, preamps that use resistor based or relay based volume controls seem to catch my fancy. Adequate power supplies with proper filtering is also a requirement so that they can deliver the punch when needed while remaining clean is also important.

Everyone has their own choices but for the money and build, if I were in the market for a preamp I'd go with the Denafrips Hades for solid state.

For passive I would choose GoldPoint.


J.

 

No need to tube roll, posted on October 31, 2024 at 00:09:09
Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 6189
Joined: April 6, 2000
If your tube preamp does not allow tube rolling :)
Yeah, Korg Nutube is irreplaceable and seems to combine the strengths of solid state and tubes.

 

RE: Help me scratch this preamp itch...., posted on October 31, 2024 at 01:38:28
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23979
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
January 29, 2004
I bought a Topping Pre90 and I couldn't happier. It's the best sounding line-stage preamp that I've ever heard regardless of price. I also own a Pass Labs X1, but I like the sound of my Topping Pre90 even better. I think this will be the last preamp I'll ever buy.

Good luck in your search and happy listening!

Stereophile has a review of the Topping Pre90. It was compared favorably to the $18,000 Pass Labs XP-32 Preamp.

 

Curious, posted on October 31, 2024 at 05:51:36
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 39282
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
April 5, 2002
they would blow the hybrid out at such a price. Wonder if the BHK amps will follow.

In Abe's parlance, Bascom King "bolted on" MOSFETs for the output buffer stage. Op amp designs just add a couple more for that function.

 

RE: Preamps the Unsung Hero, posted on October 31, 2024 at 08:00:25
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 47779
Location: Maidenhead Grid Square DM79
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
February 2, 2002
I'm curious about the Denafrips preamps too. They look great on paper but I wonder how they sound and operate. I had the Denafrips Ares II DAC. It was OK. Have you heard one of their preamps?

Four of my preamps have used relay switched resistors for the attenuator (volume control). The relays select combinations of discrete resistors to adjust the level.

- Benchmark LA4
- Schiit Freya+
- Schiit Kara
- EverSolo DMP-A8
- Placette Passive Preamp

They all sound a little different with the Benchmark and Placette being the most transparent. But as we know, it's not only about transparency.

Denafrips Preamps:


 

RE: No need to tube roll, posted on October 31, 2024 at 14:33:22
ABliss
Audiophile

Posts: 1565
Joined: March 16, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
August 3, 2002
Yeah, that's like the Vincent preamp, a tube that last forever. But what if it doesn't.

 

RE: Help me scratch this preamp itch...., posted on October 31, 2024 at 14:38:03
ABliss
Audiophile

Posts: 1565
Joined: March 16, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
August 3, 2002
Well I tried it, and I think my little Parasound Zpre3 sounds better than it, and the clicking sound the volume control makes to adjust the volume if you can aim the remote accurately didn't help.

 

RE: Preamps the Unsung Hero, posted on October 31, 2024 at 14:42:37
ABliss
Audiophile

Posts: 1565
Joined: March 16, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
August 3, 2002
" Preamps can be difficult, sometimes they have too much character, others not enough. Characteristics like drive/punch, transparency, while at the same time trying to uphold the 'wire with gain' philosophy is difficult."


Totally agree.

 

RE: Preamps the Unsung Hero, posted on October 31, 2024 at 14:53:13
ABliss
Audiophile

Posts: 1565
Joined: March 16, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
August 3, 2002
I actually checked out the Athena, but didn't like the red display, no triggers, and if you need warranty you probably have to ship it to China.

 

RE: Help me scratch this preamp itch...., posted on October 31, 2024 at 15:19:37
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23979
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
January 29, 2004
The Topping Pre90 has a relay activated resistive volume control. That's what causes the clicks, but that's also why the preamp sounds so good. Each relay click adjusts the volume attenuator by 0.5-dB from -99-dB to +16-dB.

I don't have a problem aiming my remote control. I've heard others complain about that, but I haven't experienced any significant problems with mine.

Mine works flawlessly and it sounds better than any other preamp I've ever heard.

YMMV

 

I could live with the quirky remote..., posted on November 1, 2024 at 07:13:41
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10217
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007
...and the but one pair of single-ended input jacks. It's the impedance issues of the Pre90 which steered me away. Rather than continue to debate the issue with those here who were uncertain of the answer, I emailed Apos, the US distributor of Topping.

Here's the reply from the Topping engineers, through Peter at Apos, in answer to my inquiry:

"Sorry for the delay, I just heard back from Topping. I explained your entire situation, as well as the specs you provided. All they responded with was that the Pre90 does not work with a phono stage. They did not go into any further detail. I personally did not know that, so I'm glad I asked them."

Surprised by that, I asked Apos if perhaps it could have been a translation issue, them thinking that I was asking if the Pre90 had a phono stage. Here's Peter's reply to that point:

"You're welcome! As for translating, they're usually very good about understanding my questions and answering them. I fully explained your previous message, so there shouldn't have been confusion."

As much as I normally admire him, I feel that John Atkinson's Stereophile assessment was inadequate at addressing this impedance issue. He wrote:

"The balanced input impedance was low, at 2k ohms from 20Hz to 20kHz, which might give a bass-light balance with source components that have a tubed output stage."

Saying "A tubed output stage" without giving us impedance numbers tells us very little, especially in the objective measurements portion of a review. My PS Audio Stellar phono is clearly a solid state device, and yet the Topping engineers say that it (or any phono stage) is a poor match for the Pre90.

I normally scoff at the "I don't have to listen to it, I can see from the measurements that I won't like it" guys over at Audio Science Review, but many of them raised the same impedance concerns about the Pre90 that I have, and I'm glad that they did.

John, I'm happy that the Pre90 works so well for you, but there were too many doubts for it to be a unequivocal choice of a preamp for some of us.



 

RE: I could NOT live with the quirky remote..., posted on November 1, 2024 at 09:54:58
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 47779
Location: Maidenhead Grid Square DM79
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
February 2, 2002
In my case it wasn't just a matter of precisely aiming the remote within the Pre90's very narrow sweet spot. The Pre90 didn't always respond on the first button press on the remote. It might respond on the 2nd press but subsequent presses of another button immediately following might not work. Had to wait, then go through some button gymnastics again for the Pre90 to respond. It became very frustrating.

ONE of the purposes of a preamp (for me) is to offer the convenience of source switching and volume control via REMOTE. If that fundamental requirement is flawed it becomes an annoyance too great to be tolerated and the preamp gets booted out of my system regardless of how nice it might sound. I wanted to like the Pre90 but it wasn't worth the frustration.



 

My Anthem Pre1L is just fine, posted on November 1, 2024 at 10:01:38
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15481
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
I can get off my chair to change the volume, so that's not a deal killer.

I had a dual mono passive once. What a PITA, for not much benefit.

I had a Parasound pre-amplifier once, and that was a ridiculous experience as well.

If it works, you like it's looks (aren't we suppose to match equipment from the same manufacturer?), I guess you're good.

Best part of the Pre-1L is that it's headphone output actually sounds decent and I don't know how they do it (and I don't have to have a separate box around just for headphone listening)?

 

RE: My Anthem Pre1L is just fine, posted on November 1, 2024 at 16:30:14
Jotaro
Audiophile

Posts: 167
Location: Kyushu Japan
Joined: June 6, 2024
I used to own that preamp.

At the time I lived in MI and went to a dealer in Canada. Coming back home the border agent had to check the box and I was watching him like a mother watching a new born baby to make sure he didn't damage it.

I liked the sound, though it as a bit less tubey than I wanted.


J.

 

I didn't mean to imply..., posted on November 2, 2024 at 04:46:58
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10217
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007
...that a shitty performing remote would be no big deal, only that for me, the frustration might be tolerable if this thing sounds as good as is claimed.

But given its questionable impedance specifications (at least for those of us still using either vintage or phono sources) I had to take it off the table of consideration.

 

I didn't take it that way, posted on November 2, 2024 at 07:11:30
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 47779
Location: Maidenhead Grid Square DM79
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since:
February 2, 2002

There's another inmate here who has no issue at all with the remote. He listens 'near field' and can reach the volume knob w/o the remote ;-)



 

RE: Help me scratch this preamp itch...., posted on November 2, 2024 at 10:48:02
erik
Audiophile

Posts: 1155
Location: New England
Joined: April 3, 2000
I highly recommend trying the Vincent SA-T7MK preamp. I know the name might give pause, but it's an excellent unit-designed and assembled in Germany. It offers outstanding tube-based tone controls, a 12V output, and is fully remote-controllable. The tubes are Soviet NOS pentodes, with affordable Western equivalents available for each.

Sound-wise, it's incredibly impressive-better than my Luxman CL-38uC (I own both). I also directly compared it to the PS Audio BHK Signature and McIntosh C22 preamps, and it surpassed them as well. It's extremely musical.

Audio Advisor offers a two-month return policy, so it's a risk-free trial. Give it a go; I don't think you'll regret it!

 

Best preamp is no preamp unless it's a DHT, posted on November 6, 2024 at 10:03:31
andy evans
Audiophile

Posts: 4415
Joined: October 20, 2000
If you have enough gain in your system, why on earth would you put any extra gain stage into the signal path?

I can see some sense in using a DHT in the first stage if that sounds substantially better than the input stage of the amp. But ideally you want the DHTs in the amplifier.

 

Page processed in 0.045 seconds.