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In Reply to: RE: Yes, good idea! posted by John Elison on July 10, 2011 at 08:29:23
John,
Do really think that two records showing approx equal cross talk and one record (STR-140) showing a 12 dB difference in the channels is "slightly" different results? Those results look all over the place to me. Although as you said they all show a higher number in the right channel. So which record do you set azimuth by? Again it seems to me that you are better off just setting the cartridge level and forgetting about it.
What do you think?
Follow Ups:
Hi, "Me",
Mr. Fosgate and Musical Surroundings recommend using the Ultimate Analogue Test LP with the Fozgometer for azimuth alignment but unfortunately John does not have a copy of that record. It may or may not be any more accurate than the selection John has available.
One thing that might be helpful is to record the crosstalk of cartridges using a linear tracking tonearm for a selection of test pressings. That would reduce (if not eliminate) the potential affects of skating/anti-skating bias from a pivoted tonearm. Again, it may or may not make a difference. But until the major influences are tested and put into perspective, it's still premature to validite any opinions on the usefulness of the Fozgometer and/or the test pressings available.
Regards,
Tom
Hi Tom,
I do own a copy of the Ultimate Analogue Test LP. In fact it's what started this discussion. Because I got completely different results using it than my Shure Test record (see previous post of mine). Consider the following two points.
1) If test records give such different results than what are the chances of regular records being all consistent? You would assume test records are made with a little extra care for quality. I say "assume".
2) John has a vacuum platter on his turntable and used it with his measurements. You would again assume that his readings would be more consistent because of the elimination of warps etc. I use a turntable with a screw down clamp and a concave platter. This would make the problem of inconsistent results even worse you would think.
I can only come to the conclusion that Azimuth is unimportant and you are better off leveling the tonearm and forgetting about it. Although you might gain something by using a bunch of different test records (like John did) and just setting the azimuth for the middle (average) setting. This would probably give you the best chance of getting it close to right for most of your collection.
Hi, "Me",
You may be right. I do believe that unless you have the ability to adjust for an infinite set of variables you're best off just setting (to the best of your abilities) and forgetting (unless your one of the obsessive/compulsive types) and just enjoy the music. However...
I also have experienced the satisfaction of dialing in a cartridge alignment and tonearm configuration and phono stage setting that does indeed bring out the best in what an analog system has to offer. Is it critically important? Maybe, maybe not.
If you care about the music AND the sound, you'll care about the music AND the system. If you only want to hear music, you'll just "plug and play", sit back, and listen. Obviously, there are gradations. But the hobby of stereo sound, and especially vinyl playback, does involve (by default) a certain amount of effort. I enjoy music. I enjoy the hobby. Therefore, I enjoy the effort.
Regards,
Tom
"cartridge alignment and tonearm configuration and phono stage setting that does indeed bring out the best in what an analog system has to offer"
But the point being made is if there is that much difference between test records, how much more difference is there in music records.
So, are we to set the azimuth for each music record before listening to it?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Hi, Tre',
I wasn't advocating adjustments for each and every record, but rather to spend the time making adjustments using a reference point and if needed, applying subtle fine tuning. But the matter of differences between test recordings is a potential problem. It may not be possible to know if a particular test recording was properly pressed with accurate groove modulations. I suppose you could purchase at least three copies of the same recording to verify accuracy if not consistency. Or, as John E. has done, purchase copies of multiple test recordings. At least with the Fozgometer you have a way to consistently measure cartridge crosstalk using test recordings. Whether the recordings are consistent is another matter.
Regards,
Tom
Another thing to consider is that simply measuring crosstalk at one frequency is not necessarily the best idea because crosstalk varies somewhat throughout the audible bandwidth. I decided it would be better to minimize overall crosstalk across several frequencies instead of just 1000-Hz. The second graph below shows my DL-103R adjusted for minimum crosstalk using my Denon XG-7005 test record, yet there is a difference of at least 2-decibels at 1000-Hz.
Hi John,
did you investigate the phase of the crosstalk? Ideally it is the phase that should be equalized, not necessarily the level (although they often coincide).
Thomas
Hi, John,
What would be interesting is to see the resulting measurements when only the 1,000 Hertz tone was used to minimize crosstalk. Assuming that the resulting frequency sweeps would show corresponding patterns consistent with those shown for the lower graphing, you could surmise that there would be a ~4 and > 5 dB difference between channels at 100 and 5,000 Hertz. But maybe not.
Regards,
Tom
I just want to clarify that all my test records are very flat---no warps. Furthermore, I used my SL-1200 for the comparison measurements and not the SOTA Millennia. I also used a TTWeights spindle clamp to secure the test records. All my Fozgometer measurements were very stable.
One thing that bothers me a little is that all five of the cartridges that I've measured for azimuth with the same Denon test record required tilting in the same direction by approximately the same amount. I would have thought that at least one or two of them would have require tilting in the opposite direction. This makes me wonder whether its just the particular test record that determines azimuth, and whether the cartridges might perform just as well when adjusted for zero-degree (level) azimuth. I've never really heard any audible improvements from my azimuth adjustments.
Best regards,
John Elison
John, Interesting to find this tonight. I just bought a Fozgometer and could not get it to do much for me. I usually eyeball the cartridge level, then use a mirror to check cartridge/headshell is level, then finally with an old machinists magifying glass, very precise and clear, focus on the reflection of the stylus itself and make any small adjustments to be sure it is perpendicular.
Beyond that, I could not get the Foz to do much. The right reading was much lower then the left. As I played with the adjustment, I did get them a bit closer, but this would also increase the channel imbalance on the right. So after hours and hours, changing cables, double and triple checking the cartridge alignment, I finally put it away, and set it at my standard adjustment mentioned above. The cartridge is a brand new 2M Black. ????
At this point I fired things up and it sounded good to me, so I don't know where to go from here. It is interesting that VPI Harry (HW) always preaches about setting and forgeting azimuth at level, and usually gets ripped about it.
Hi, Wayne,
Alignment for azimuth is sometimes a compromise. In your case, you may be increasing the amount of crosstalk for the right channel, but you are balancing out the amount of crosstalk between channels; ie, using the Fozgometer to find the least amount of crosstalk overall.
I find the Fozgometer to be a really handy cartridge alignment tool. I may have been lucky in having cartridges with very good channel balance and very good stylus/cantilever alignment. But I've also rejected and returned three cartridges, one for having a misaligned stylus and two for having a misaligned cantilever. I don't accept mismanufactured cartridges. I wonder if the problems people have been having with the Fozgometer are not really the fault of the Foz' but more a fault with the cartridges.
Regards,
Tom
You're right, "slightly" was probably not the best word. What I meant was that all the differences were in the same direction.
I'm beginning to think that adjusting azimuth is really not worth the effort and that simply setting the cartridge level is just as good as any other position. Quite frankly, I've never heard a difference anyway. Therefore, I have no future plans to change the azimuth on either of my turntables.
Best regards,
John Elison
NT
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