Vinyl Asylum

VTA...Does it make much difference?

74.131.19.171

John Elison

Most cartridges today are designed around a VTA of 20 to 23-degrees. The DL-103 series cartridges are designed for a VTA of 15-degrees. I'm curious as to your thoughts on these rather wide variations in VTA. Does VTA make much difference?

Thanks,
John Elison

Follow Ups:

Maybe stylus profile determines the impact ? - rocky raccoon 23:08:52 10/15/07 (0)
If you have an elipse in a groove - by changing VTA you change the area of the elipse in contact with the walls ? According to the profile of the elipse, the part of the groove in contact will change more or less as a result of any VTA change - maybe ? Perhaps this explains the difference of opinion ? Just a thought.

I like the arm slightly uphill toward the record - no loss of detail but a more natural, less aggressive presentaition. More 'moving coil' if you will. If VTA made no difference, I wouldn't have a preference.
Nope. - Jake_LA 07:42:31 10/15/07 (0)
On your average record the VTA will vary by around 7 degrees, You can adjust a tonearm's VTA by about 1 degree.

Of course fiddling with the VTA will change the sound, but are you more accurately tracing the cutting head? Nope.
There was a great seminar at RMAF - Atver 20:09:16 10/14/07 (0)
where they demonstrated the difference correct VTA made. THey were using a VPI TNT with Lyra Titan cartridge, CJ electronics and $1800 speakers. Not a megabuck system.

The difference was clearly audible, the best way they could describe the method was that there is a perceived increase in volume when you hit the sweet spot. They mark the adj know and adjust for every record. 200g, 180g, 150g, etc.

I had my wife adjust my Scout while I sat in the sweet spot, sure enough, I could hear it. Too low and the pace drags, too high and the music gets thin and brittle. There does seem to be a pretty wide range where I could not tell much difference.

The biggest differences were using the proper EQ on older records, using a protractor instead of the VPI fixture, and using a real mono cartridge on mono records. All of those made huge differences.
Thanks for all your responses.... - John Elison 17:38:41 10/14/07 (2)
I just wanted to find out what others thought about the importance of VTA.
According to an old Audio Magazine article, adjusting for the correct VTA reduces frequency intermodulation distortion. The following test plot demonstrates how FIM is minimized at the correct VTA using a DIN 45-542 test record. Two groups of bands are involved: One is a high frequency IM tone consisting of 1.85-kHz and 3.15-kHz with a high-side IM product of 5-kHz, where as the other section is a low-frequency IM tone consisting of 370-Hz and 630-Hz giving a high-side IM product of 1-kHz.

It's interesting to note that correct VTA is slightly different for high and low frequencies. This was apparent with elliptical and line-contact styli. With conical styli VTA was the same at both frequencies. SRA was stated to be the reason for this difference.
Thus, our investigations clearly show SRA to be a more important controllable variable than VTA. Our dialog with cutting engines indicates that VTA currently varies between 16 and 22-degrees, depending on the lathe system. SRA, however, is generally 91 to 95 degrees relative to the record surface in order to facilitate lacquer "chip" (cutaway strand) removal.
Here are some more data published in the article when using the CBS STR-112 test record with 400-Hz modulating a 4-kHz test signal.

It's interesting to note that the CBS STR-112 test record is recorded with VTA very close to the old standard of 15-degrees. When I used this record for testing my cartridges, I got lowest distortion with my DL-103R in comparison to my OC9ML/II and my Shure V15VxMR.
Best regards,
John Elison

Edits: 10/15/07
- Questions for you John - Thomas_A 04:23:31 12/08/07 (0)
  Hi John,
  
  I saw this old thread, but I am not sure whether it will be visible anymore. I think it is interesting but there are a few things I don't understand.
  
  1. What is the recorded VTA on the DIN 45-542 test record? It appears to be, if the numbers are correct, around 24 degrees. If it is 15 degrees, there must be a mismatch between the VTA and SRA of the DL-303 cartridge (?). For example if the nominal VTA of the cartridge is 17 degrees, the stylus is bonded incorrectly, so that a VTA of 24 degrees makes the stylus fit the groove more accurately.
  
  2. What is the nominal VTA of the DL-303 cartridge?
  
  3. You state "With conical styli VTA was the same at both frequencies." Do you mean distortion curves were the same? Otherwise I do not understand. How was the distortion figures with a conical stylus?
  
  4. There is no distortion figures for the shibata stylus in Table 1, why?
  
  5. The Shure V15 etc should have a VTA around 15 degrees, therefore the "V15" in its name. Ideally it should fit the CBS test record VTA. The Denon should also have the old 15 degrees VTA.I have read that most cartridges, although specified a certain VTA, have individual differences of up to +/- 5 degrees VTA at nominal VTF. That means that SRA also may vary, and it may vary independentlu of VTA because of QC problems. It is complexed by the differences in recorded VTA also. I wonder whether cartridges with conical stylus, not sensitive to SRA, may have better distortion curves because of the variations observed between actual VTA/SRA in cartridges with fine stylus + record differences?
  
  So while cartridges with fine stylus may have potentially better numbers, this is in practice difficult to achieve. One may be lucky, having a cartridge made with good QC that follows the spec more accurately, including VTA/SRA. Using a conical stylus, there will be a less problem, although one have to sacrifice the possibility of lowest possible distortion.
  
  What do ya think?
  
  Best regards,
  
  Thomas
- Thanks for the info John... - EdAInWestOC 07:16:38 10/15/07 (0)
  I don't understand how anyone can question the importance of VTA/SRA. I'm no mechanical engineer but it seems plain old butt simple that correct alignment is correct alignment. It may be somewhat difficult to arrive at (due to different cutting angles and different thicknesses of LPs) but nonetheless important. No less so than any phase of the cartridge's alignment...
  
  Ed
  
  We don't shush around here!
  Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
is there a way to calculate - Penguin 13:58:27 10/14/07 (0)
the distortion of a sine wave based on the angular difference between the tangent of the vertical modulation arc and the SRA as function of the modulation amplitude? I suspect that it is more important than the relation of the SRA to the original cutting angle. Just a gut feeling.

dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
Kurt Vonnegut
RE: VTA...Does it make much difference? - classicalltheway 12:39:00 10/14/07 (0)
For me, yes.
Rega P2, AT440MLa. Without the recommended 2mm VTA spacers, the sound is forward and brittle. Adding thickness to the mat increased bass, and highs seemed more natural. This is actually the opposite recommendation or findings of others with the same arm/cartridge combo. Now if only I can get a discernible difference with anti-skate, I'd be fine. (Anti skate doesn't produce audible differences as other arms I've tried.)

Robert Mills
It's hard to believe it does, at least... - jsm 11:48:27 10/14/07 (0)
for the common reason that people claim it is important. You will repeatedly read the claim that it is important to match the angle of the original cutting device. That is of course impossible unless one is prepared to make very large changes (many degrees) to VTA with different records simply because different records have been cut at a variety of angles. A search on the Web can be quite informative about this. Furthermore, should you match the VTA for your cartridge with the original cutting angle of a particular record, it is extremely likely that the SRA will be way off from perpendicular.

Many posts here point the SRA as being far more important than VTA, and from general principals that would appear to be the case, especially for non-spherical stylus shapes. But how critically must it be adjusted? Here one ventures into very controversial territory, from claims that a few minutes of arc is critical to a degree or so is plenty accurate enough. I have posted before that if a few minutes is so critical that the sound difference are obvious, then the changes would be clearly captured on CD-Rs. It would be a great service to people having doubts about the importance of finely setting SRA or VTA if someone could produce a CD-R showing the effects of "homing in" on those fine adjustments that illustrate the sweet spot that is achieved. This is well within the capability of carefully made CD-Rs. In fact, if there's anyone in the SF Bay Area that would like to have a go a demonstrating what fine-tuning VTA can do, I'd be happy to bring my ADC and recording equipment and make the CD-Rs if they don't have the equipment to do this. With my previous Spendor SP 100 speakers I could not hear the difference between most CD-Rs and the original vinyl when I made copies. With my present Vandersteen 5s I can distinguish between the two, but it is subtle. This test of VTA would be a differential test and would be well within CD-R capabilities. the resultant CD-R would allow anyone to hear and switch between various settings easily, though a first-rate CD player should be used for maximum discrimination.

Joe
Since VTA is not easily seen... - anumber1 10:02:32 10/14/07 (0)
...due to the pivot point of the cantilever is usually inside the cartridge, I use my digital camera and take a well lit close up of the stylus in the groove of an average weight record. This hepls me get my SRA as close to 90 degrees as possible. From there it is easier to adjust by ear for me.

--
Al G.

Edits: 10/14/07
Am I reading this right? - mark111 08:50:10 10/14/07 (0)
You seem to be questioning the design differences between the the 103 and other carts.
One possible advantage to the lower VTA would be that the stylus would "trail along" more in relation to the direction of travel of the record.That might make it a little more stable.
Or I could be totally out to lunch.
enjoy,
mark
RE: yes. I use a deck of cards - LousyTourist 07:00:07 10/14/07 (0)
as shims to adjust.

Once set, I stopped thinking about it though.

Don't have any 'thick' records, but I do have some thin ones.

I may need to revisit this when I have an afternoon free.

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
Bertrand Russell
doesn't amtter waht you call it but finding the sweet spot for vertical alignment of the replay generator with - Timbo in Oz 04:59:44 10/14/07 (1)
the original cutter's generator is worth doing.

once we get close with the Tracking Force setting.

Just takes time, making small changes iteratively, until you get it close to right! IE in the middle of your cartridge's 'generator sweet-spot'! usually that rake angle where the sound is not particularly bassy or trebly!

NB VTA and SRA vary together, so IMO it is best to simply LISTEN for the sweet spot, and not rely on futzing around with a kids drawing compass -> (| at the edge of the platter!!!!!

In the same way that we go about getting it in the middle 'horizontally with the bias (anti-skate) setting.

At the end of 'finding the right angle', a re-adjustment of the alignment / tracking error of pivoted arms is worth doing.

Mind you, it is my experience that there just is not enough variation between the records themselves to adjust VTA/SRA for EACH and EVERY record. Unless you have LOTS of 1950's and early 60's LP's, as the variance in standards fell from the mid 1960's.

IME the higher the compliance / lower the 'TF range' of the cartridge, the more VTA/SRA adjustment is worth it, especially for the THICKer / 'phile type discs. Yet another reason NOT to mourn the passing of the 'sub 1-gram' super MM genre!

JBTW finding the sweet spot is really the only way to guarantee that the particular instance of a cartridge will be at its best.

And, unless you have a very good stereo microscope, and test gear for checking cross-talk properly, the iterative/listening approach is still THE best way to find out how well aligned your cartridge is within itself, IE has it minimised the stylus/profile alignment across the cantilever - and of all of THAR to the generator itself!

Lastly and IMO&E it is not worth doing any of this until after the thing has run in, and its suspension has settled! Close enough and then use it, then re-set it!!

Warmest
Timbo in Oz
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio Scrounger
And gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
http://www.theanalogdept.com/tim_bailey.htm
- point is there is no it. SRA and VTA are indeed two different things - Analog Scott 10:00:11 10/14/07 (0)
  It just so happens that they are tied together. The propper VTA really is 0 degrees but you can't do that with any cartridge that has a canteliver. sO John's question seems to be does VTA matter in the case of a particular cartridge which is substantially closer to correct when the SRA is propperly aligned. I think the math bears out the notion that VTA really isn't all that critical where as SRA often is. With some stylus shapes SRA actually isn't terribly critical. with those cartridges you really can experiment with VTA. It seems that in those cases neither make much difference.
Very much so... - EdAInWestOC 03:44:58 10/14/07 (0)
but of course its the SRA that we are adjusting by proxy. The wide ranging recommendations of whats the best pressing here is an example of how the VTA/SRA setting can effect the playback quality. Older MFSL and Nautilus pressings have been touted as the worst/best examples of certain pressings and that makes anyone with working gray matter question what we are hearing. Its not MFSL or Nautilus in particular but the fact that these manufacturers cut their LPs at an angle that requires a corresponding adjustment of the VTA/SRA. In fact anytime someone claims a certain pressing has bloated bass and rolled off response an intelligent person should question the suitable VTA/SRA adjustment to the particular pressing.
I suspect that if everyone had a tonearm with remote controllable VTA/SRA adjustment capability we would find no one claiming that the adjustment is unimportant. It is less important to certain stylus shapes but it still remains a very relevant adjustment. I don't understand people who spend thousands on analog playback gear (to extract the last degree of resolution from the vinyl medium) but will not be bothered to adjust the VTA/SRA. I mean...how inconsistant is that?
I have a decent tonearm (Incognito wired OEM RB300 w/Michell Technoweight) but consider myself duely educated by owning a Riggle VTAF. Having the ability to easily and quickly adjust the VTA is a facility I will not do without again. There is so much more in those grooves that we are capable of hearing if we closely match the cutting angle to the playback angle.
I'm sure there will be responses about obsessive behavior but that is out of place considering the nature of people in this hobby. Get it right and enjoy the music.
Ed

We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof

Edits: 10/14/07
I think the SRA makes such a bigger difference - Analog Scott 00:28:51 10/14/07 (0)
that one can not worry about VTA since they are tied together. Ya just gotta optimize SRA and let the VTA be what it is. Since there are so many other factors you may never really know whether that radical departure from typical VTAs of most cartridges is a factor.
RE: VTA...Does it make much difference? - Old nuff 2 no better 23:03:00 10/13/07 (1)
It's certainly important, but the tolerance range is open to a lot of argument. Record warp changes the angle by enough to negate arguments about hearing tiny fractions of a mm in pivot height. At least for the records I own. I just replaced a cartridge with a new one of the same type, and was very disappointed with the sound until I raised the arm pivot by .025-.075". The arm is no longer quite parallel to the record, and the particular setup loses all its musicality if I follow the rule of making it so. Ditto azimuth. It has to be more exact than most people can set using a template. The template gets you very close, but the last quarter degree or so has to be done by listening.
- Agreed - final alignment is done by ear! - reuben 07:24:09 10/14/07 (0)
  I have an FG-70 radical sharp edge stylus and when I put on an LP that doesn't sound tonally right, the first thing I do is remember that VTAF can be had for a price.
  
  Lowering the arm pillar by a half millimeter can change things from 'edgy' to 'magic'.
  
  Best,
  CAC
A resounding - kavakidd 21:44:15 10/13/07 (0)
YES. Even with my Lowly (some think) Shure V-15VxMR. The thickness of a file folder made a HUGE difference/improvement

"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
RE: VTA...Does it make much difference? - painter27 20:20:38 10/13/07 (0)
And, what is the meaning of life. I've tried to figure them both out. Just when I think I've got it, it throws me a curve. ????

Edits: 10/13/07
Anecdotally? Yes, absolutely - texanater 19:01:23 10/13/07 (1)
I don't really know why other than it may change the amount of surface area making direct contact with the groove. This is somewhat supported by the fact that my AT440MLa (line contact) is significantly more sensitive to VTA than my Grados (elliptical). I can make qualitative arguments such as its warmer this way or brighter that way etc... Sometimes those arguments get wishy-washy. I can provide one very hard argument that is surface noise is significantly altered by VTA on my AT440MLa. I sometimes listen through my headphones. They seem to really amplify surface noise. Vinyl is virtually unlistenable through my headphones if the VTA is set too high. Thats how I noticed the 440 really likes an ass-low VTA. I dropped it to see if it lowered the surface noise through my headphones and noticed it really warmed up the sound and reduced the "440 Harshness." The 440MLa is very warm, rich and easy to listen to with low VTA. I bet those who argue the 440 is to bright, harsh and fatiguing do not have the VTA set properly.

Just my thoughts.

Nate
- I agree with the others that is has more to do with SRA nt - texanater 19:06:26 10/13/07 (0)
  nt
  
  Edits: 10/13/07
RE: VTA...Does it make much difference? - Pete Fowler 18:58:22 10/13/07 (0)
Hey John,

I think VTA is probably less important than most folks claim. The stylus rake angle (SRA) is where the magic happens (at least with line contact-type stylii). Match SRA to the cutting head angle and everything locks into place.

However, since the stylus, cantilever and cart are all connected in a semi rigid relationship, VTA tuning can act as a surrogate adjustment of the SRA.

Put another way, a DL103 (re-tipped) with a line contact stylus vs. most other carts with a line contact stylus will have an optimum VTA setting that is...between 5 and 8 degrees different to achieve the same SRA for both carts.

Pete
Yes - KT88 18:58:21 10/13/07 (0)
It's measured in a matter of degrees...

Sonically? No one listens to angles of tracking or rake, but the signals produced. It appears that the difference in VTA from cartridge to cartridge is determined by the motor structure as long the SRA is constant. As you can see, there is more deflection in a design with lower VTA (or greater arm height for the same cart). The motors associated with these designs may have larger gaps and or greater dynamic range. They may also just be installed in the cartridge body at different angles and so the differnt types may have little internal differences. It's all speculation and a rather silly exercise without more info and of course actually listening.
-Bill
Probably not, but SRA sure does. (nt) - Ken J. 18:49:23 10/13/07 (15)
nt
- How - kavakidd 21:42:50 10/13/07 (14)
  do you adjust SRA? By adjusting VTA, of course.
  
  "Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
  - RE: How - Ken J. 15:07:16 10/14/07 (2)
    It's true that you and I cannot adjust SRA without adjusting VTA (and vice versa), but cartridge manufacturers can alter these parameters independently from one another. As J. Elison mentioned in the original post, currently available cartridges range in VTA from approximately 15� to 23� (though 20-23� is more typical), and he's asking us whether we think these varations make much of a difference.
    
    I don't think so. According to this post in the AA FAQ , modern records are cut with the cutter head swing arm at a VTA of approximately 18-24�, with 22� being typical. Yet, you can play such a record with a 15�-VTA Denon DL-103 and get great sound from it, even though the VTA is off by a whopping 7� or so. Similarly, you can get great sound from a modern cartridge playing a record cut in the '60s when 15� VTA was the standard.
    
    In my experience, SRA is much more critical, because if it's off by more than a couple of degrees, the sound really suffers. That's why I think it's more important to get SRA right than VTA.
    
    Ken J.
    - I am trying to figure - kavakidd 17:32:31 10/14/07 (1)
      out where the disagreement lies because I don't see any. Since you and I are unable to alter the relationship between the stylus and the cantilever - they must go together. Now - if your point is that the goal to be sought is correct SRA - we would be in complete agreement. But you can only get there by adjusting VTA. (Raising or lowering the arm pivot and/or adjusting VTF)
      
      "Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
      - RE: I am trying to figure - Ken J. 22:13:59 10/14/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I am trying to figure posted by kavakidd on October 14, 2007 at 17:32:31
        
        I don't see any disagreement, either. You are right: my point is that when we hear improvements as a result of adjusting SRA and VTA together, these differences are more likely due to getting the SRA right than the VTA.
        
        Ken J.
  - RE: How - Dave Pogue 14:19:49 10/14/07 (10)
    Well, that's the easy way. I guess you could also alter it with VTF changes :-)
    - I suppose - - kavakidd 14:32:40 10/14/07 (9)
      but the real point is that VTA & SRA are directly related. I have to wonder, in this day and age of $30, 40, 100,000.00 TTs, why no one has come up with a programmable servo type mechanism to adjust for VTA/SRA.
      
      Even wilder would be a laser "reader" in conjunction with the above that could read the stylus/groove interface.
      
      "Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
      - Max Townsend demoed an electronically adjustable arm - M3 lover 23:17:03 10/14/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I suppose - posted by kavakidd on October 14, 2007 at 14:32:40
        
        to vary height and thus SRA/VTA. Read about this in one of the audio show reports a few years ago. No idea if it was ever put into production, Max does not have the best track record for getting his ideas out on the street.
      - RE: I suppose - - John Elison 18:33:58 10/14/07 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I suppose - posted by kavakidd on October 14, 2007 at 14:32:40
        
        There was a turntable years ago that had remote control of VTA so you could adjust it from the listening position while playing an LP. It was the Goldmund Reference Turntable.
        
        RE: I suppose - - Ken J. 22:28:48 10/14/07 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I suppose - posted by John Elison on October 14, 2007 at 18:33:58
        
        Unless I'm mistaken, the Goldmund Reference did not have a remote-controlled tonearm; it had the T3F tonearm (also used on the much less expensive Goldmund Studio), which was fully automatic and servomotor driven, but not remote-controlled.
        
        I think the tonearm with remote-controlled VTA adjustment (and just about everything else) was the Air Tangent Reference, an even more expensive European linear-tracking tonearm. I'd have to look it up, but I seem to recall them listing for around $12,000 when last sold in the U.S.
        
        Ken J.
        
        I may be wrong but doesn't that megabuck TT/arm/stand... - EdAInWestOC 10:02:09 10/15/07 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I suppose - posted by Ken J. on October 14, 2007 at 22:28:48
        
        thing that M Fremer uses have a remotely controllable VTA facility? I swore I read something to that effect.
        
        Ed
        
        We don't shush around here!
        Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
        
        RE: I may be wrong but doesn't that megabuck TT/arm/stand... - Ken J. 15:14:15 10/15/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I may be wrong but doesn't that megabuck TT/arm/stand... posted by EdAInWestOC on October 15, 2007 at 10:02:09
        
        Do you mean the Continuum Caliburn turntable, Cobra tonearm, and Castellon stand? If so, no, it doesn't have remote-controlled VTA adjustment (or any other remote-controlled adjustments). However, VTA is adjustable on the fly, as it is on many other high-end tonearms these days.
        
        Here is a link to Mr. Fremer's Stereophile review:
        
        http://www.stereophile.com/turntables/106con/
        
        Ken J.
        
        RE: I suppose - - John Elison 23:08:34 10/14/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I suppose - posted by Ken J. on October 14, 2007 at 22:28:48
        
        Perhaps I'm wrong. I thought I read somewhere that VTA could be adjusted remotely from your listening position on the Goldmund Reference. Maybe not!
        
        I remember that but - kavakidd 19:21:42 10/14/07 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I suppose - posted by John Elison on October 14, 2007 at 18:33:58
        
        was it programmable? Or did you just write down a number and enter that the next time around?
        
        "Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
        
        RE: I remember that but - John Elison 21:17:36 10/14/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I remember that but posted by kavakidd on October 14, 2007 at 19:21:42
        
        > was it programmable? Or did you just write down a number and enter that the next time around?
        
        I don't know! I couldn't afford to buy it. ;-)
      - Oh, I agree, - Dave Pogue 18:10:26 10/14/07 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I suppose - posted by kavakidd on October 14, 2007 at 14:32:40
        
        but if you drop a penny on top of the headshell it will play hell with VTA TOO.:-)
in my experience, yes - Nasty 18:46:49 10/13/07 (1)
I found the Glider was kinda picky that way. The Celebration less so but nonetheless important to my ear. There's talk about VTF being more critical but to me that's a manufacturer spec and has a set range. VTA is a bit more subjective and, worse yet, resistive loading seems to make a difference in perception here also. To what's left of my ears, loading seems to control HF ringing whereas VTA has a larger effect on "coherence". When VTA is "right" everything seems to fall in place and is less fatiguing...something to do with temporal distortion I'm guessing.
- RE: in my experience, yes - becketma@yahoo.com 01:52:46 10/14/07 (0)
  I dunno. But, my software seems to sound better, when I adjust the VTA. ANd, when it seems to sound better after I adjust it, I'm happier.
  
  Bob
  A novice in basic electronics; verify anything I post with an expert.

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