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212.25.64.55
hi .i wounder what is the deal with the dl103 copliance issue .
i got a dl103 mounted on a 9c tone arm (project) on a rpm5 .
the effective mass on this arm is a 9.5 gr
in the cart' deta base i saw that the copliance with my arm is between 17-18hz ..
isaw that i need a 30gr tone arm to be on the safe copliance side with 12hz ..so ?
where do i get such an arm ?
do all of you guys got 30 gr tone arm that your dl103 mounted on ??what can i do for figure it out for my self ? :-(
i wounder if i got the full musical potential from my 103 ?? !!
btw : its sound ok , but i cant stop thinking of this problem
any thoght or info will be great :-)
thanks alot
aviad .
Follow Ups:
The DL-103 mates very well with my SME 3009 II arm (12.5g). As someone else mentioned it has a compliance of 9 at 10hz, which is the number you should be using in the resonant frequency computation. Anything in the 11-12hz range should suffice nicely.Mike
Folks,I have listened to the DL-103 with a pimped Rega RB-250 (Origin Live rear stub, custom low slung brass counterweight, Cardas Incognito wire). The results were nice but not very refined. The treble was rather splashy, so I experimented with adding weight to the headshell. With 12 grams added, the bass was very impressive. The treble however became to soft. Less weight did not really improve matters. So I figured out that (1) the Denon DL-103 is not that good a cartridge or (2) the Rega is not really a great arm for the DL-103.
Subsequently, I started designing and building a custom 10" tonearm with an effective mass of > 14 grams. This arm has been finished recently (sorry no pictures) and all I can say is that this arm really serves the DL-103. It sound just fantastic and the HIFI-system really disappears.
This journey has learned me that you should not underestimate the DL-103. In the right arm it offers sheer magic.
Just my 2 cents.
Fox
Hukk
The actual compliance (at 10Hz) of the DL-103 is 9cu (not 5cu). Both Denon and Audio Technica (among others) specify compliance at 100Hz which is pretty useless.With the Pro-ject arm you should get a resonance at around 12.5Hz which is OK. If you use the additional headshell weight (3g.?) you should be able to get the resonance down to around 11Hz.
Try both and see which method sounds the best.
I find my DL103 sounds much better in a 12g RB250 than in my 7g JMW-9. Even in the RB, however, seems to lack some in the deep base. Maybe I need to experiment with cartridge loading.
You most definitely don't need a really heavy arm for your DL 103, weight the head shell with some Blu Tak and or some Blu Tak and a Dime, experiment and listen, the dicking around / optimization process is at least half of the fun and fascination you'll end up
with a real sense of satisfaction and accomplishment and learn a lot as well.When you get into the relative ballpark things should snap into focus.
Also do some archive diving there are no shortage of excellent threads on this particular topic.
Regards FredJ
I believe this is the first post from you on your return, unless I missed an earlier one. I'm sure many of us missed you.Joe
Thank your for the kind words, it feels great to be back !My unanticipated full dress rehersal for the wonderful World of Geriatrics took me completely by surprise and literally off my feet for quite a while, now that I'm finally back up and fully operational
and feeling really good, better than before actually as far as my overall health, as my problems were essentially self inflicted as far as not bothering to monitor my diet or Blood Glucose levels, so essentially
it was a very much needed wake up call :-0I got so far behind I'm only able to log onto the Asylum
here and there for the time being.Kind Regards Fred
don't forget that Denon state their compliance figures as dynamic compliance at 100Hz, as opposed to the sometimes quoted static compliance figures used to calculate arm/cart resonance values.There are many posts in the archives on this, especially regarding the 103 and its suitability in medium mass arms.
i got an adition headshell waight do it sound better with it mount on between the headshell and the cart (dl103) ??thanks .
I'm not sure if I understand your question ? if you mean does the DL 103 sound better with the additional wt on the head shell ? I'd say most folks would find it superior on a reletively light arm with the head shell weighted, as far as specifically where the weight should be placed on the head shell as well as the specific amount of wt. is more of a more subtle, aesthetics involved and personal preference thing, in instances where I've weighted head shells I find I prefer
jamming the Blu Tak up under the head shell behind the Cartridge
just so I don't have to look at it, it's out of sight.I don't personally believe those issues are particularly definitive
or significant.Some folk add mass to the arm by wrapping or shrink wrapping the wand, some prefer doing both, as there is a school of thought where wrapping the arm may also tame resonance issues, and IMHO that would be a very subtle thing at best and would be a function of the wand material, with your Carbon Fiber arm I'd think it would be superfluous
or perhaps even counter productive, I have a Project 12C, but I've never felt the need to wrap the arm.If you look at the DL 105 Compliance threads you'll find that the actual DL 103's actual compliance is a matter of conjecture, like so much of this stuff there isn't an established "Correct" approach so
different individuals have different results and personal preferences
and neither are more proper or correct, it's simply a matter of what
sounds the best to the person ear on their system.If you're new to tweaking / optimizing it's common to feel some trepidation initially, but there is really nothing to fear as long as you're careful and deliberate, take your time do things like this when you're relaxed try a given wt. like the wt. included with your head shell be sure to compensate by re-zeroing (re- calibrating) the neutral balance point of the arm to compensate for the additional difference, and then listen carefully, I like to start the VTF on the higher side and then adjust down, play music you're most familiar with and allow plenty of time for listening, as long as there is no obvious mistracking there's no problem just leaving it
at the point where you added some wt. initially and just go with it for a while, forget about it, and then re-visit the issue down the road, I find this more productive than being all wound up and modding to fast not listening enough as you can easily tweak your way right past the sweet spot.Also with any new cartridge there is the break in issue where the suspension loosens up and settles in, the degree of significance varies greatly with different cartridges, but expending all kinds of effort until the suspension has settled in is often a waste of time
from one degree or another, as obviously one of the most significant variables is going to be changing for a while.So look in the Archives (Text to find) add a reasonable amount of wt. and then just listen and enjoy until you're certain things are settled in, and there again that's not definitive as even the same cartridges will break in differently to a degree.
In general never forget this is supposed to be about enjoyment /pleasure, it's about the music engaging your emotions
so getting uptight / wound up or anxious some of which is natural in the beginning, but the sooner you move beyond that the better everything gets as being up tight inherently strangles creativity as well as the subtler aspects of perceptual abilities.Regards FredJ
I think I will try this with the DL-160 ... I will also be able to move my counterweight back a bit doing that.
~Slainte,
The OMalley
thanks alot j ,
i am not so new at this all subject but that was a great reply you posting .
i bet that help alot more then my "problem" solved ,i thank you again .
i will try to add the aditional weight and see how this affect the sound for me ,
thanks again
aviad .
which has an effective mass of IIRC 12 grams.
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