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72.9.11.10
This was a tough competition. I like both carts and both work very well in the JMW-9 arm (I did add the headshell weight for the 103).
The AT excels at extension, both on top and down low, refinement and fine detail and soundstage depth. The DL-103 excels in the midrange, soundstage width and vocal reproduction, specifically female vocals. It also walks off with the admittedly vague but nonetheless vital musicality award.
What it finally comes down to is the DL-103 almost defies the listener to evaluate it, because it never fails to draw you into the music. For that reason alone, if I had to live with only one of these carts, it would be the venerable DL-103.
Associated equipment was the VPI Scout TT with SS/Delrin clamp, Jolida JD-9a phono stage (stock) and Rogue Metis preamp with EH 6SN7s (NOS gray glass RCAs on the way). Also, the Parasound HCA-1500A power amp and Mirage OM-9 speakers.
HenryA 12-gauge shotgun is the ultimate arbiter of disputes - G. Gordon Liddy
Follow Ups:
....Denon DL-103R instead. Don't waste your time/money for something less than 'R' if your already prefer Denon sound. Go one step further and start forget about hifi....Regards,
After using my DL-103 for five months or so I put my OC9ML/II back on a few days ago.Both cartridges are outstanding bargains. Both have qualities that are desirable, both have their faults also.
I found that with a little 12AX7 tube rolling in the phono section of my preamp, I can tailor the sound a bit to draw on the strengths of each (Blackburn made, Long plate Mullards for the AT, smooth plate Telefunken for the Denon). I am using the same step-up transformers and gain settings for both.
I am perfectly content with either cartridge but I do dream of retiping the Denon someday to perhaps gain the "best of everything".
--
Al GTravelin' light; It's the only way to fly - J.J. Cale
Interesting thread. I've just bought a 103 and have tried it now in a Scout with a JMW-9, and also in a Rek-o-Kut and RB250. So far the Scout sounds like it has rolled off extremes and a bloated mid (yes, I think I have it adjusted okay). The bass is very weak. In the Rek with the RB 250 the balance is MUCH better. I'm not sure about the relative mass of these two tonearms. I think the Rega is 12 grams to the JMW at about 7 grams. This likely accounts for the much better bass. Both frequency extremes seem getter on the Rega - don't know why except I have noticed on speakers that when the bass gets better, the top sounds better too.
HenryA 12-gauge shotgun is the ultimate arbiter of disputes - G. Gordon Liddy
Did you end up changing VTA I had set for the Denon cart?If so, how much up or down?
Dale
HenryA 12-gauge shotgun is the ultimate arbiter of disputes - G. Gordon Liddy
Hukk
and found that around 50 hours was the magic number when things started to smooth out and settle down.Cheers. Doug
This is my perception also, Henry. For me, the "extension" and "detail" that the OC9 is reportedly better at lends an unreal sound to cymbals and piano transients (and other parts of the spectrum) that is a bit too zippy for me. In contrast the 103 is so neutral and smooth and balanced/dynamic I won't be at all surprised if I'm still using one many years from now. With no insult intended to those who favor the OC9, for me the plain jane 103 sounds more like music.Jim
"...[the Denon] also walks off with the admittedly vague but nonetheless vital musicality award."Vague? The Denon is involving, dramatic, and emotionally connective, and as you observed, it never fails to draw you into the music. I may not care much for its performence at the frequency extremes, tracking is just adequate, and it brings out more groove rush and surface grunge than I'm accustomed to, but its musical performence makes all those considerations irrelevant.
OTOH, the AT is more detailed and spacious, it tracks much better, and it's quieter in the groove, but it's harmonically dry and bleached-out. Its dynamics are lackluster and compressed, trailing edge info is rolled-off to the point of distraction, and the whole musical presentation is unusually sterile and detached.
I was not going to say anything at the beginning but my friend has urged me to do so. I like to express my opinions on these two cartridges and I have to point out that it is my own perception and no offence to the users of the 103. I agree with Henry totally that the strengths of the 103 include its stereo imaging, firm and substantial bass, fine integration and, of course, seductive mid band. It may lack absolute transparency and top end extension and the 103 make it up with its fine musicality. But I still consider the OC9 a more serious cartridge than most people think.
In terms of integration, the OC9 is seamless through out its frequency range. Its stereo imaging is wide and deep with very good focus and separation. It doesn’t have the magic and seduction of the infatuate 103, but it is liquid, open, and neutral. Tone colors and timbres are faithfully reproduced. Its rhythmic drive, timing and tracking ability are also excellent. Though some people consider that the OC9 is bright and splashy but I find its top end smooth, detailed, and well extended and without a hint of harshness. The bass of the 103 is powerful and firm but it cannot match the tremendous speed, tautness, resolution and absolute control of the OC9. If you think the 103 is dynamic, then the OC9 is more so. A while ago, some of my friends came to my home specially, and I demonstrated to them the sonic characters and differences among the AT 33PTG, 103R, Supex1000, OC9 and the Dynavector17D mk2 cartridges (four turntables and five cartridges were set up prior to their coming). They had no ideas what the OC9 could deliver. They were all surprised and stunned by its awesome dynamics and lightning fast transient attacks. The Koetsu Black, for example, is also very dynamic but its bass is muddy and sluggish. The only cartridge that I can think of, could equal and beat the OC9 in this department is the ultra transparent and superb Ortofon MC3000.
I have both the 103 and OC9, but I would rate the OC9 above the 103 and in line with the 103R as two of my top favorites. In fact, the 103 and OC9 are both bargains of the century.
Best regards!
.
The original owner tried it all over the map before settling on 100Ω. His system is very accomplished, but this cart sounded mechanical and dynamically squashed no matter what load he used. After he decided to dump it, I borrowed it for a few weeks, loaded it at 100Ω, and it sounded just as inept at playing music.Since then, I've heard OC9ML/IIs in two additional systems; one a friend's; one a dealer's, and it's always the same: Decent sound effects for a budget cart, but musically sterile.
I agree with Henry completely.
I took him to mean that "musicality" is a vague criterion for assessing an audio component, but how something can be both "vague" and "vital" (Henry's words) is beyond me.IME (I've heard both carts in my system), there's nothing vague about it: The Denon is a passable performer in terms of audiophile sound effects and it can really play music. The AT is also a passable sonic performer, but when it comes to reproducing the excitement and involvement of real music it fails miserably. It's probably the most mechanical sounding modern cartridge I've ever heard.
which are specific terms.
HenryA 12-gauge shotgun is the ultimate arbiter of disputes - G. Gordon Liddy
In a friend's Rega P3, a new Denon 103 with about 10 hours on it was sounding ragged in the upper midrange last week -- not focused, not clean. Is this something you have noticed?And how many hours do you think it takes to get to full potential?
Thanks!
Hukk
.
Perhaps he should revisit alignment.(I've mounted two now, they are up and going nice within hours in my experience.)
No Guru, No Method, No Teacher
HenryA 12-gauge shotgun is the ultimate arbiter of disputes - G. Gordon Liddy
I use the HiFi News test record protractor, which I believe results in Baerwald.
My Roksan Xerxes and Atremiz arm came with a custom protractor from Roksan. I have no idea what alignment they use. It's a two point style, that's all I can tell you.
No Guru, No Method, No Teacher
HenryA 12-gauge shotgun is the ultimate arbiter of disputes - G. Gordon Liddy
but I have a new DL-103 on the shelf.. The OC9 is one of the best rounded cartridges I've heard, and unusually for many MC cartridges, is a bass monster.I'll make sure I post my opinions on this.
Daniel.
"Belief" or not should not enter into it.
HenryA 12-gauge shotgun is the ultimate arbiter of disputes - G. Gordon Liddy
Does it read a different part of the groove to that used by most cheap stylus? I have some rare original pressings which crackle a pop alot with the OM30 I'm using on my 2nd backup turntable at the moment.When I get my Rega P3 back, Ill be putting the DL103 on that, to tie me over until I get my Triplanar back, on which I'll put a Koetsu.
One of my turntables I want to be setup to play mis-treated LP's..
Daniel.
Do I believe that your;1) Musical sensibilities are the same as mine
2) Are as discerning
3) System setup is anything similar as to be releventConsidering I have no way to factually determine this at the moment, it all comes down to belief. The OC9 is a damn nice sounding cartridge, and a super bargain giant killer in its own right.. I find myself raising my eyebrows to find that something half the cost again can be even better!
As I said, I have a new one on the shelf bought after reading all the comments in this forum. You may be right.. how can I say given I havn't even heard my DL-103 yet?
Daniel.
as are priorities.
HenryA 12-gauge shotgun is the ultimate arbiter of disputes - G. Gordon Liddy
.
No Guru, No Method, No Teacher
switching takes all of 30 sec.
HenryA 12-gauge shotgun is the ultimate arbiter of disputes - G. Gordon Liddy
I agree with your findings. I've had a lot of time with both and slightly prefer the Denon. Heck of a good deal!
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