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Plinths seem to be a fairly common point of many posts and threads the last few months. Of course usually related to Lenco's specifically. In my case though, I'm trying to more clearly understand what contribution the plinth has to the overall sound, as heard by me at the listening seat. With my single layer plinth, belt driver.There is talk of material density, and the material's propogation speed. As relates vibration/energy/excitability of the material. Even talk of increase/reinforcement of specific frequencies. And ..... yes subtraction of a specific narrow spectral band.
I haven't given it a mountain of thought, and well it looks like I'm only just beginning. The little effort I've devoted to the question, gives me something along the lines of even inert, strong, and 'quiet' materials still storing some modest amount of energy. Being in a very small constant state of excitability from the itsy bitsy teeny weeny little ole stylus. The cart's electromechanical generator then also 'reads' this addition along with the actual groove content.
Giving life to vinyl playback. Instead of a clinical rendition of a collection of sounds. I haven't taken a stethoscope to my latest acrylic plinth. Not something I normally do, or do often in tweakdom. But I have done it before none the less. So, I'll give that a listen.
Mostly I'm interested in a simple, concise explanation --hopefully correct -- of what's really going on? That the non math majors like myself can put a handle on.
Signed, Elmo properly attired in asbestos suit :-)
Follow Ups:
Short answer: buy a turntable with a suspension and don't worry about plinths again.Longer version:
In the absence of an effective suspension, structural-borne vibrations, as well as motor noise, will be transmitted through to the platter and record, and the cartridge will read these as a signal. Moreover, noise from the bearing will find its way to the platter, but this is true irrespective of whether there is a suspension or not. Also independent of the existence of a suspension, acoustic-borne vibrations will directly impinge on the arm/cartridge/record/platter.
The platter and sub-chassis (that's the plate where the bearing is attached) each have their own resonant frequencies, which depend on the material, shape, and overall mass of the structure; they can be precisely calculated, but it's not straightforward and certainly outside the scope of consumers (manufacturers should do this, but in the audio industry not even manufacturers have the knowledge to do it). Ideally you don't want to excite any of the resonances of the platter or subchassis, but it transpires that they are most often in the upper midrange / lower treble, so the most one can do is engage in damage control.
The same problems exist in a lot of areas in the industrial world, and the solutions implemented there are readily applicable to audio, but no manufacturer I know of has ever taken a scientific approach in designing a turntable (Rockport may have done so, but there is no way to tell definitively). Given this state of affairs, the most a consumer can do is trial and error -- which is the same approach the manufacturers use actually.
As far as informed opinion goes... there isn't a universal one: the outcome depends too critically on the details of the design, so when you're ready to start tinkering ask for advice on what are the gross things to avoid.
> 'quiet' materials still storing some modest amount of energy
There is no physical mechanism that allows that. Beware of people that tell you this kind of nonsense.
John
as I'm listening to the acrylic, I keep thinking a spring suspension is what the table needs.Moving along ...
"In the absence of an effective suspension, structural-borne vibrations, as well as motor noise, will be transmitted through to the platter and record, and the cartridge will read these as a signal."I don't find the lack of a suspension to be a detriment. To me the motor noise is general, non-specific and innocuos. While present at the stethoscope's head, it is not present at ear, in the listening chair. And the room borne is not a problem either (my headbanging days long over).
"The platter and sub-chassis each have their own resonant frequencies"
I feel (though I certainly can be wrong), that the plinth is being excited by the energy borne at/by the stylus. With some platter damping (a little lead), and a fairly spiffy mat (me talking), I don't 'see' the platter in my listening. But most certainly clearly hear differences in the three different plinths I've inserted so far in my test bed.
My limited thought/analogy would be the plinth is acting as a capacitor? In the case of acrylic, as a simple first order crossover. In the case of mdf, more like a power supply cap (no specific fequencies). Of course both on a very, very small level. But affecting the Music significantly more than the motor noise/vibration, or room borne.
<('quiet' materials still storing some modest amount of energy)
"There is no physical mechanism that allows that. Beware of people that tell you this kind of nonsense.">I can't fathom the acrylic's quiet and dead nature on one hand. And it's selective playback on the other. If it isn't being excited by the stylus, how is it holding back a select portion of the spectrum? I think that it is being excited more by select areas of the range, though modest and short in duration. This excitation accounting for the different pereceived 'sound' of each plinth. What each adds separately, to that which exists in, and is extracted from the grooves.
My avenues would/might be mdf with thin acrylic lamination. Acrylic with thin mdf lamination. Possibly 50/50, or acrylic with an added wooden armboard. I like simple and easy. So hopefully one of the four will be easy to implement. The acrylic by itself was worth evaluating. But I'm not going to continue with it alone. Though spoken word records (comedy) are truly remarkable.
Thanks, Elmo.
> I don't find the lack of a suspension to be a detriment.How did you determine this?
> To me the motor noise is general, non-specific and innocuos. While
> present at the stethoscope's head, it is not present at ear, in
> the listening chair.If you can hear it with the stethoscope, then it is certainly present at the listening position; whether it's bothersome or not is a completely separate issue, but its presence cannot be argued.
> And the room borne is not a problem either
What do you mean by "room borne"?
> I feel (though I certainly can be wrong), that the plinth is being
> excited by the energy borne at/by the stylusYou are wrong. The excitations from the cartridge are orders of magnitude lower than the ones from structural- and air-borne vibrations.
> My limited thought/analogy would be the plinth is acting as a capacitor?
No.
> My avenues would/might be mdf with thin acrylic lamination.
As I said, unless someone is willing to work out the theory for you, construct the models / run the simulations, and do the experiments, you won't be able to get an informed opinion on these issues from anyone; anecdotal evidence maybe, but, given the degree to which the outcome depends on the details, this sort of opinion is useless anyway.
John
Here's a summary devoid of all the scientific jargon and gobbledegook which is often impressively spouted out by inmates, which is only worth as much as results, as pointed out by the chief research engineer for the famed Scott equipment: "If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad; if it measures bad and sounds good, you have measured the wrong thing." Despite all their measuring equipment and thoeries, they still don't know why great violins sound great.This is more applicable to idler-wheel drives than belt-drives, but gives a rough general idea anyway. You want the 'table to be stable, so the plinth should hold the 'table in place, and I mean hold the 'table in place, so vibration - which is a form of noise - doesn't contaminate the 'table/tonearm/cartridge and cause undue relative motion betweent the different parts. Mass is the easiest way to achieve this, though one can be clever in the way to get there (large massy bottom plinth on which is firmly sited a lighter upper plinth; single big huge plinth, small but heavy solid plinth, etc.). You don't want the plinth to vibrate and thus communicate noise to the tonearm/cartridge. With idler-wheel 'tables this is a much larger problem than with belt-drives, due to their big manly Mighty Motors, which have much more power than the cute little motors which come on belt-drives. Often, however, these Mighty Motors are hung on sprung suspensions, which mitigates their Mighty rambunctiousness to a certain degree, but should still be taken into account (as the flimsy sprung hollow boxes they originally came in prove: noise noise noise, elimnated by secure bolting to strong plinths). Though you don't want your plinth to vibrate and thus contribute noise, you also don't want it to be so effective at eliminating noise you also eliminate the music. Think of a plinth made of pure Sorbothane: sure it'll be quiet, but your music will have all the impact of wet overcooked spaghetti. You want your plinth to be as neutral as possible, not neutral at this frequency but adding or subtracting at another frequency. You want it dead, inert, inactive, neither adding nor subtracting, as seen from the cartridge/tonearm turntable: an immovable object (at least so far as idler-wheel drives are concerned). Seems to me many fashionable materials out there are comb filters: emphasizing certain frequencies and destroying others. Sure they sound flashy (old stereo store trick), but are they satisfying in the long term? Not if you're familiar with the sound of real instruments, or get headaches easily.
Some suspended belt-drives do benefit from heavier inert plinths, depending on their design, as is attested by the many Thorens tweakers out there. I would think that the better the plinth the better the sound for an unsuspended belt-drive, same as for idler-wheel drives, as attested by the many materials they come in: MDF/damping material, or Corian, or acrylic, or some form of CLD (contrained-layer damping). The whole point behind CLD is to achieve what I've outlined above, a neutral plinth. I favour CLD plinths for my Lencos, but I suppose any mass will improve a naked idler-wheel drive, which are fantastic due more to their drive systems than to the materials in their plinths.
What does this mean in practice? For my Lencos, a Lenco on it's sprung suspension and a good tonearm sounds stunningly good, as long as care is taken in restoration. The same Lenco off its springs and bolted to a big, heavy non-resonant plinth increases in focus and clarity, and the bass drops a couple of octaves (this is a CLD plinth anyway). The same Lenco not only bolted to a big heavy plinth but actually married to it so a large portion of its metal top-plate ends up being constrained layer damped by the mass itself (plinth contacting flat bottom of metal top-plate directly and bolted to it) results and a HUGE diminution of noise, to the point where fellows with very high-fallutin' belt-drives said to be extremely quiet are shocked (I only recently tried out this last formula). Surface noise disappears, there is no hint of rumble or low-frequency noise, notes leap out at you and everything is in sharper focus, imaging knocks out your side and back walls. This is the effect of a CLD plinth firmly married to a Lenco.
Jonathan Swift in Gulliver's Travels has a war break out over the correct end from which to eat an egg: there's the fat enders and the narow enders. People are like this: get them to agree on something (like "We Love Idler Wheels!"), then they will disagree on the implementation (all the people in Lilliput loved eggs).
So, heed the words of Daniel R. von Recklinghausen, Scott's chief research engineer, and trust your ears and take theories and measurements with a grain of salt.
Flame suit: On!
My favorite theory is the water/river theory. That the wood Stradivarius used, was floated to the mill by river. This soaking in water, setting up an identifiable change in the wood, that he used. I don't know the changes to the wood that the theory proffers. But I found the theory romantic."You don't want the plinth to vibrate"
During my listening session yesterday, I asked of myself (suggested?). That perhaps to my ear and eye, some measure of elasticity need be present in the plinth material. Some complinance. Sans some compliance, I'm beginning to feel that some notes become quashed. Timing and ..... shall we say the music's 'fusion' (?) can become a tiny bit screwy (in a suspensionless design).
The acrylic is very, very interesting. It has many great strengths and laudable attributes. But after four days. I feel my plinth future is somewhere else. Whether I add a lamination of mdf to the current acrylic (or a different piece), or go back to the previous mdf plinth, and add a lamination of ..... acrylic. It's possible that different thickness', sizes or shape of acrylic might be an improvement over the large 1 1/4" slab. But I don't personally feel the interest in exploring.
I do get the feeling that the idlers and belts do benefit from different plinths. Have different needs. Whatever their ultimate make-up. From all that I've seen and read here, I would liken the
Lenco plinths to .... a finned heat sink.No easy answers, no easy paths. Well .... I could just buy a Lenco, Rega RB, Denon, and a pile of Birch ply :-)
Thanks, Elmo.
The last option is, of course, the best, your search for materials would be over and all your concentration would be in finding vinyl! My own "Destroyer Lenco"/Rega/Denon, or Ode to the Denon DL103, is going through birth-pangs in my garage. Your heat-sink analogy is quite good! But not quite right as it misses the "immovable object"/neutrality idea (think "lump"), but still pretty good. Experience and descriptions of acrylic turntables abound and they all share in the same characteristics: acrylic is a comb-filter, emphasizing some frequencies and eliminating others. No amount of CLD will recover the eliminated frequencies, it seems to me, though a perhaps a hump at the precise correct missing fequencies (or alternately a suck-out at the emphasized frequencies) will cancel out the loss, but God how will you determine this? Or as a friend of mine put it: "They'll never make a good sounding plastic violin," and let's face it, "acrylic" is plastic. This would fall into the fading concept of "common sense". After you finish your next plinth, float it down the river, if you can find a river with the same chemical signature as Stradivarius' river ;-)!
Destroyer vs. Slayer ..... Ladies and Gentleman, scheduled for fifteen rounds. For your sporting pleasure, here tonight .... at Ceaser's Palace! Weighing in at forty five pounds, and wearing light trunks ......Did add a small intermediary/ancillary poplar armboard. Sound more unified, less cool, not as forward. But still not for me. So either mdf with thin acrylic substrate/laminate, or with small acrylic armboard will be next.
Oops, didn't realize you were using a Rek-o-Kut! Belt drive or idler-wheel drive? I'll be working on a Rek-o-Kut Rondine idler-wheel drive this week! Gorgeous Art Deco 'table, and mine's pristine. My favourite tonearm board material so far is solid maple: like Stradivarius, I prefer natural to synthetic materials, not that Stradivarius had much choice ;-).
That cannot be, can it ? It's a slip of some kind ?Stradivarius ??
Hey listen, we all love to hear something nice about ourselves. But most of us refrain from personally composing and posting it.
I'll put my vote in here to ask that you tone it down a little. Your momentous pronouncements and expansive opinions are beginning to eat up the oxygen here a little too agressively, and could even wear down the welcome a bit.
Restoring old turntables is great. Relentless self-massage in public, well, that's another thing. An embarrassing thing, to be exact.
To finetune it for you ::: This Lenco Messiah platform is a little creaky on it's own ---- and hugely ignorable while sequestered at audiogon ---- but wallpapering it around here, with posts that are steeped in self-regard & self-appreciation, will earn you a few dissenting votes.
Here's one : Back up, turn down the "me" dial to low.
JD
Back at it again eh? Taking things out of context as usual because you have an axe to grind. I'm getting mighty tired of your deliberate and not-so-deliberate misunderstandings, I assume you can read, or do you have someone to help you? Well, here goes a pointless attempt to explain. Stradivarius was brought up by Elmo in an earlier post, and is a humorous thread in a discussion between me and him about the mysteries of plinths and materials for plinths, no you in there that I could see. My reference to Stradivarius was a joke, that's "j-o-k-e", look it up, you'll find it between "I" and "K" in the dictionary. You see, since Stradivarius lived centuries ago, for you that would be "long long ago", he did not have access to synthetic materials, which means "artificial," man-made materials not found in nature, like plastic, acrylic being a form of plastic, that's "p-l-a-s-t-i-c", which you'll find in the dictionary between "O" and "Q". Anyway, the joke is this: since Stradivarius - which I remind you is a running thread in the conversation between me and Elmo - lived long, long ago, he had no choice but to use natural materials. The joke was based on this, you see: since I favour natural materials, this makes me like Stradivarius, who actually had no choice, making the point moot, and so I am not in fact comparing myself to him, since his choice was no choice, thus the comparison is "moot", "m-o-o-t" which you'll find between the...oh forget about it. Very complicated to a fellow like yourself, I'm sure, but perhaps you can get someone to explain it to you. This falls under "humor", which is "h-u-m-o-r" (or British/Canadian spelling "h-u-m-o-u-r"), which you'll find in the dictionary between the letters "G" and "I". I was under the impression you had to be an adult to vote.
You see, I even actually spelled it out at the end of the post you "took offense to" (the "" means "Skepticism"), "like Stradivarius, I prefer natural to synthetic materials, not that Stradivarius had much choice ;-)" in case anyone was stupid enough not to get the joke, the ";-)" means a "joke" in case you didn't know, but as you hang around here so much I'm sure you knew, which would make you both dishonest AND a dunce.
Hi,Final note - Your posts here ARE VERY OFTEN self-aggrandizing and I'm afraid you may be alienating more people than *impressing* ----
with your absolute mastery of turntable everything.The Lenco thing is what it is, no more or less---- but if you have the need to flog it more with a little self-admiring spin, why not just stick to Audiogon.
I'm far from a generic message-board-flamer. Pull up, say, a thousand of my posts if you're feeling unjustly treated by this. Overall I never go in for a directly critical stance, but for fuck's sake ---- every time I cross one of your posts it's some kind of self-flattering anthem to you. Or your estimations, or accomplishments or considered opinions.
TURN DOWN THE "ME" DIAL, Stradivarius.
JD
Gee, still don't get the reference to Stravarius yet, after ALL those explanations, AND the explanation which was actually included in the original posting you pathetically tried to cook up a charge on, in case someone could possibly be dumb enough not to get it?! I could be charitable and try to explain it yet again, but there are limits. Now I am going to write something with some big and not so common words, so please try to follow.Get over it, O mentally- and psychologically-unbalanced One: I can be as grandiose as I like about the Lencos because no matter how great my claims, the Lencos in fact live up to it, to your endless irritation and consequently my own endless amusement! Unlike you, I am no idiot, and wouldn't stick my neck out unless I was backing the right horse. And like it or not, flamboyance in writing (as opposed to the stale droning of your own posts) does get results: it stimulates discussion, provokes thought (something admittedly alien to you), and yes also sometimes causes arguments and fights. Controversy stimulates interest too. Just look at the multiplication of Lenco postings and Lenco websites, none of which I started, on this very forum as well (picture puffing red-faced mediocrity turning green with envy)! This is called "style" as it applies to writing, which you'll find in the dictionary between "R" and "T". In case you didn't get it (oops, forgot your mental limitations). I use the Lencos to promote idler-wheel drive technology as I've made clear countless times (from original post: "With idler-wheel 'tables this is a much larger problem than with belt-drives, due to their big manly Mighty Motors, which have much more power than the cute little motors which come on belt-drives") because they're cheap and so encourage many to give it a fair trial (or didn't you catch my reference to the Rek-o-Kut idler-wheel drive as well....oops forgot your problem with reading), something you evidently cannot comprehend. But I also intended to right a wrong: the dogma due to pompous and envious self-appointed protectors of the status quo like yourself (the most common type of Toady in existence, fellows who dog and hinder progress in all kinds of ways), which existed that idler-wheel 'tables were the bottom of the heap, and the Lencos were the bottom of THAT heap. Now that's done and the Lenco is recognized and more and more are joining in the idler-wheel fun partly because controversy stimulated investigation by fair-minded folk with a yen to know the truth (see, this goes back to stimulating interest by generating controversy, a very difficult concept for someone of your evidently limited intellect).
Now I notice you too now have an idler-wheel drive, though you went for the status-oriented Garrard and can now toady up to various other Garrard-owners and the author of the 6moons article (which mentioned Lencos and the "underground", this must have had your teeth grinding, LOL!): pretty pathetic. I wonder how much of your attacks on me and Lencos in general are in fact due more to the perceived threat to your status/Garrard-ownership as the Lenco continues to make conquests, and yes, is often reported by those who own both (this would count as evidence to someone not as mentally challenged and biased as yourself) to be superior to it! Here's a quote just for you, and I admit to enjoying presenting you with it especially: "garrard 401 v lenco - round 2.. Ye gods i wasn't wrong. Very interesting, will and 4anx. Another night of first the garrard then the lenco on the ol silver and denon 301. While i can see why people like the garrard's musicality(david price in this months hi fi world magazine said a 301 easily beat his fave £2,000 Michell Orbe)i can safely say that the lenco is creaming this garrard 401 for slam, prat, presence, detailed transients, musicality, bass and organicness of the music. These traits were all pretty much there during my unmodded lenco listening, by the way, so i'm interested in Jean's standard lenco experiment. also, with the garrards platter mat on my glued on lenco mat, the imaging falls into place on the lenco, meeting the garrard's. This is very exciting, as the ol silver is very bum up on the lenco, and i did it to see what a bum less up does. this suggests that when i swap the pine armboard for a thinner hardwood one, the lencos fine detail retreival and imaging will improve further. amazing. To all ol silver buyers, i found setting the cartridge took my cartridge clips close to the arm, touching it in fact. so care required i think. one more question.. the twl hi fi tweak, anyone got a link handy? so to all you googling garrard 401 owners out there... be afraid... be very afraid.... grrr."
Oh, why be churlish, here's round one from the same fellow, just to show the lengths the fellow went to for a fair trial and fair and accurate reporting, something again alien to your blind prejudice and petty hatreds: "garrard 401 v. lenco - round 1. well aren't i getting post happy.. this time its a garrard 401 i couldn't resist today for £120. came from a local elderly gentleman of longstanding audio heritage who auditioned it for me through a wonderful old fisher valve receiver, with his ol silver tonearm and ortofon very expensive mc and kef 104/2's. Years of fiddling and synergy in this system was stunning, with tingles going down my spine and the widest deepest soundstage i've yet heard, and the feeling i get in the best headphones of the music washing through and around me... all in a tiny room. He'd modded the 401 significantly, with a heavy hollow plinth with large bits of lead in it and dynamat everywhere, and huge globs of plasticine around bearing and arm base underneath! Anyway 401 and me go home with michell record clamp (essential, he says), stylus alignment card, shure tracking force scales, 60 immaculate records and a lesson in arm cartridge setup. So you know what i've done this evening... a-b'd my lenco and the 401. hah. Well, firstly setting silver arm and denon 301 cart on the lenco correctly was a massive improvement. no more distortion, imaging excellent, sharp transients, more detail, and more swing and musicality.. bliss. Then the michell record clamp, which killed the lenco's wonderful slam and prat for only a slight gain in sharpness and imaging. Off with it ye gads! Then to the 401. Early days at this, so silver arm is a bit butt-up on the lenco and level on the garrard, and tightness of the arm base nut (which ol say is critical to performance) was not played with at all. For the garrard the clamp proved to be, as previous owner stated, essential . Without it the music got 'big' on the 401, and it lost control and the music blurred with none of the lenco's prat and slam. With the clamp the garrard recovered, and engaged with the music rather like the lenco with the clamp, which was very nice and accurate and musical, but without that extra bit of magic of the unclamped lenco. This kind of tallies with the 401's sound on the previous owner's system, which while wonderful, was very accurate without slam and prat, and the overall amazing magic owed much to the fisher and the kefs (he got it through his cd player too!!}. what this immediately suggests is that the lenco without the clamp wins round one. The two decks are quite similar in their delivery, with the lenco providing more slam, more wonderful beguiling bass, more prat, and more control over the amazing transients that it brings forth. End of round one. Please be prepared for anything in round two, as you may have guessed i'm new to this, and becoming more and more aware of the time needed to get arms set up right, and the need to try different arms and cartridges. Unfortunately the 401 is a bugger to change arms on.. "
Now I don't want to enter into a war between the Lenco-lovers and the Garrard-owners, as I simply want idler-wheel drives to be taken seriously enough to be manufactured and sold at not-ridiculous prices, and yes, to advance the state of the art. As part and parcel of this I also recommend experimenting with Garrard SP25s, Zero-100s, Rek-o-Kuts, Elacs, in fact any idler-wheel drive. But go ahead, Dunce-Boy, discredit yourself some more and attack this report of the comparison between the Lenco and the Garrard by resorting to that stale old "subjective" reporting thing, or perhaps the "he doesn't know what he's doing thing", or some other device regularly peddled out by unimaginative wannabees like yourself. Enjoy your Garrard, Toady and Hopeful of Status, value against the Lenco is going down, down down....
Note to any others who may be reading this (just in case), I do not want to pronounce against the Garrards and have no interest myself in touting one 'table over the other (except insofar as truth and testing reveals: if the Lenco system is indeed superior, then I would want any new idler-wheel drive to adopt the Lenco system, if not, then another), what I mean by value of Garrard against Lencos is that the value of Lencos is going slowly but steadily up, which means the Garrards' relative value against the Lenco is going down: instead of ten times the price, they are now on average four times the price (or something along those lines) not counting the complicated and expensive rebuilding required. And I admit to the entertainment value of goading this envious mental midget with jibes ;-), my bad. This might be upsetting to status-seekers, but to those who simply want good sound and saw the big Garrards as a way of getting there (and thus I applaud your choice) this is not a problem. Anyone want to take up the Lenco challenge, you'll find me very approachable, and I even have a collection of belt-drives which I love and I regularly adjust them for friends! It's just that I truly believe idler-wheel drives are the superior technology in spinning vinyl: this is called an Ideal, and I’m an Ideal-ist, which explains my stand against fellows like this and others like him who have come against me to uphold the status-quo. Fellows like this obsessive help keep prices relatively low, so far, so don't dawdle!
Now I truly do hope that was your last post as promised, this endless demonstration of your envy, mental shortcomings and prejudice is getting downright weird, as I've crossed your type before on this forum and others and watched the bushes in my area with some apprehension. The Dark Side of the internet.
Too pathetic to know when to quit, but if you must know, I saw a typo and immediately re-posted ("delete successful!"), try again, and try not to embarrass yourself this time. Time for bed now, oh and before I go, the latest one of the many e-mails I receive to provide you with some bed-time reading, this just fired off tonight: "Something I forgot to mention. Last weekend, my younger and I visited my older in college. Very near where he lives is a friend who has a mega-bucks system, including an SME 30 with a V arm and Koetsu Onyx. We took along my son's creation with a Benz Glider L2 on an OL Silver and, get this, the Virtuoso with only 10 hours on the "lowly" LOTH-X MODIFIED PT-6, that I had given him (a very underrated arm, BTW, with the Loth-X mods and cable). Anyway, this guy was just dumbfounded. I had been ribbing him for some time and when we brought it in, he laughed. LAUGHED, right in my face. Said, it looked good but, C'MON. At first, I didn't even think he was going to let it "touch" his system. By the time we left the next day, he was asking, "do you think you can find me one of those"? He would not come right out and admit it, but he was pissed (not at me, at himself for having spent the sinful amount on the SME). I actually thought the SME was slightly ahead in the area of "air" but not by much and not by even one tenth the price difference. At one point my younger son whispered, Dad, I think John's table sounds better than this guy's!"Out of the mouth of babes!"
Thanks once again for this opportunity to advertise the Greatness of the Mighty Lencos, and for once again proving that you are a Dunce.
Can't help wondering why he should care what you think.
Hi Dave,Haven't you played wing-man for the Lenco Messiah before ?
Well, let's look at the link. Yes, it's true.
Suddenly it's kinda like schoolyard interpersonal dynamics here.Is that in the contract, or do you get a bonus for each post ?
Maybe a fabulous Swirl - Art - Lenco or something ?
My post ---clearly- wasn't directed to you. Can't help wondering why you answered.
JD
(my final,final post in this thread. go crazy)
Funny that when you interfere in someone else's business, however faulty your logic, limited your intellect, cooked-up your charges, evident your envy, it's fine, but Dave is interfering in a posting clearly not aimed at him. Work on that logic Dunce-Boy.
And you're even more obsessed than I thought.
While I understand what the individual words mean, as a whole do they add up to something else as in, say, an engineering term? I know jack-squat about most things Audio (but I'm learning), and since I am in the midst of my own plinth project (but still able to make changes), would you have any help for this apprentice, i.e. a link or such, regarding CLD? Yes, I've read "The A'gon Thread", and yes, I'm still looking for my first Lenco, but I'm forging ahead with my Rega/VPI knockoff for my first DIY attempt.
Jim
Audio Apprentice
Well if you want professional jargon designed to make impressive people sound impressive, then you've come to the wrong man! I seem to remember that "constrained layer damping" actually started in audio anyway in the fabrication of turntables. One of the earliest proponents of the idea was Kuzma (though many large Japanese companies did it first), with their top-of-the-line 'table which was a sandwich of acrylic and aluminum and some sort of adhesive (they always say "proprietary damping compound" instead of glue to make you feel happy about shelling out several $K, which I suspect in most cases are simple contact cement or some other common glue aailable at the hardware store). The idea is that each material has its own resonant characteristics, and by firmly bonding one material to another material you ensure that no single resonant behaviour dominates, the aim being to create a truly neutral plinth that allows you to hear yor tonearm and cartridge accurately. In the end, though, like violins, it's a crap-shoot, and all anyone can really do is glue various materials together and hope for the best, as the high-end belt-drive manufacturers in fact do (which explains the various recipes). Despite this, I still prefer CLD, which does make sense. Now I have found that by using my ears MDF/birch-ply sounds great, I think the best so far of various materials and mixes I've tried. It's cheap and easy to work and nice to finish, so I stop here. I've used Corian/MDF, which also sounded great, though I believe the birch-ply/MDF sounds more energetic. Do a lot of reading as you've done, trust your own sense of logic and common sense (so rare these days you might as well call is "Spidey-sense"!) and most of all your ears, and I'm sure you'll come up with a good-sounding plinth. In the absence of any true knowledge/experience (as opposed to impressive theories), give in to your whims, I do this often!
But I bet it would work. I doubt that they ring and I would think that they would absorb a ton of vibration. It might sound a little lifeless though, and I would bet in the long run one would come to the conclusion that it stinks.I'm sorry. I just had this vision when I read the heading. My actions are monitored by PETA. No animals were harmed in this post. I actually like horses. I'll go back in my hole now.
Dave
Later Gator,
Crank up your talking machine, grab a jar of your favorite "kick-back", sit down, relax, and let the good times roll.The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
.
Do plinths have such an effect with belt tables. I've seen "solid" plinths for LP12 and wonder about it. Solid wood, plywwod, mdf, acrylic, no plinth. Seems there are many choices.
The closest I've come would be say an AR, or an Oracle. I would think their minimally sized/shaped sub-chassis' would qualify as such (putting aside the Oracle's layering, and both their bases/support). I liked the many AR's I've had, and the few Oracle's.I guess evaluating a minimal plinth design might give me some more data to mull.
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