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In Reply to: RE: I like the 103 but was not speaking about the cartridge, just about the stylus. posted by viridian on November 16, 2021 at 13:54:09
EdAinWestOC had a 103 with a VdH stylus, ripped a few LPs to CD for me, and damn! Loved the sound of that cartridge.
I really like the Denon house sound, but didn't like the conical tip on the 103. Too much loss of detail, too much distortion on difficult passages. For the record, I used it in a Technics SL-1210MkII with the OE arm. Put just over 100 hours on it, so it's not like I didn't give it a chance.
And yes, I've tried several of the nude replacement styli for Shure carts, via LP Gear and EVG. They make the cartridges too bright. The quality control is spotty as hell. The LP Gear elliptical N95ED stylus damaged one of my jazz albums on the first play. Use the N91ED, VN35E, and the N95ED.
IMO, they weren't worth $35 a few years ago and now they're $70. Also, from what I read (on AK, so take it with a grain of salt) the styli are assembled in Japan but the diamonds come from a plant in India that doesn't have a very good record for QC. The plant has taken a double hit, first from weather then from Covid, and that's why those styli are hard to get.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Edits: 11/16/21Follow Ups:
They really sang in arms at, or over, 20 grams effective mass, ATP12T, Ortofon, etc. Didn't sound right in the Rega or Micro Seikis.I am just finishing up restoring an SME 3009ii unimproved, which is only a 12.5 gram arm, but with a heavy enough headshell, and counterweight I might take another stab at it.
It seems a very old school cartridge that, IMHO, sounds best in a very old school arm. I would like to try it in a Fidelity Research FR54 or FR64, but the 64 is just stupid expensive now.
Shame about the Shure nude ellipticals, the JICO SAS pretty much ran me out of the room with the brightness in a V15Vmr. Not for me. I would like to find a nice replacment stylus for my M91eds, though I just lucked into an original ED stylus.
Edits: 11/16/21 11/16/21
Back in the early 2010's, everyone was raving about them around here. I think that a couple of guys swore that SAS Shures changedd their lives, or something like that.
They're a lot of money, so they should be good, but you're saying they're bright and not longer any good? Has QC gone down, or just inherent bad design?
I tried them in three different Shure carts, used one in a V15 III body for several years.
The laid back or dead sounding Shures like the M97xe or V15IV? The SAS is an improvement.
In the the Type III, the SAS was too bright and it didn't really track any better than an NOS Shure stylus.
Prices have come down on these styli over the last couple years. The N35 is about $200, the Neo (with sapphire cantilever) is $250, and IIRC these puppies were at least $50 more expensive. At $200, if you've got an M97xe body or V15IV body, they're worth it.
Otherwise, stick with Audio Technica. The AT VM540ML is $250, the VM95ML is $170. The VM540ML will beat the pants off an M97xe with an SAS stylus.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Got a boron SAS for my old Shure V15Vmr a few years back. Had a bit of brightness for a while, but dropping the impedance to ~36k with loading plugs was beneficial. Currently doesn't seem to be an issue with normal loading, sounds pretty smooth.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
Prices have come down a bit from the last time I looked. The regular, non-Neo SAS styli are down around $200 now. Not bad.
I think the only old Shure body I have left is an M91, got rid of everything else.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
in their opinions, that the SAS styli are just as good or better on some of the older, less expensive Shure bodies.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
I had a V15II body, found an NOS stylus on eBay, couldn't believe how nice that thing sounded. Excellent tracking, very accurate.
I gave it to a friend of mine because I know when the stylus is gone I'm not gonna find another OE.
My money is going to be used for gear that's current production or at least comes from a company that supports its legacy products. That ain't Shure.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
I currently utilise the SAS when I use the cartridge (it's in rotation with a few other cartridges), but I have a low-hour OEM stylus assembly for the V15Vmr in the refrigerator, to use again at some point.
Looking at it under the microscope, the diamond on that beryllium cantilever is very long and thin. Had another OEM stylus assembly, but dropped it and broke it a few years ago while examining it under the microscope. Could've kicked myself, probably should have. You should have heard the swearing...
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
I certainly wouldn't call the V15IV laid back, and it's funny how that thing has been described in so many different ways. But I trust you on the Jico sound and it's probably due to the magnet type used or something else. One thing for sure, they are are history and I have to put my hat over my heart if I wore one. They did so much not only for vinyl but Microphones as well. A company of historical significance
...I was using a III in a Transcriptors arm. Rushed right out and bought the IV, gave the III to a friend of mine before I had the IV mounted up.
And was completely underwhelmed by the IV. The III was accurate and lively. The IV was accurate.
But I'd take the IV over the M97xe any day. IMO the M97xe was a steaming pile of poo. Not even hot poo, but the cold, nasty stuff.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Edits: 11/17/21
remember the posts by fscerri? I currently run a M97xe with a Jico stylus on my AR-XA. Without the Jico stylus, the M97xe is flat and boring to me.
Even if I got the resistance right, there was the bad QC to get around. Check out the TnT Audio review, there's a pic of the stylus and it's visibly off azimuth. Mine was like that, too, and I didn't need a microscope or even a jeweler's loupe to see it.
Prices on the M97xe skyrocketed when Shure stopped production. There are far better cars for far less money.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
that's what seems to cause most of the problems, cheaping out to maintain a good profit margin without raising the price much. The other would be sending things overseas to be manufactured. This is exactly what happened in the music world with guitars and amps etc. The USA sent people over to set things up and the 1st samples are AOK. A few months or years go by and it declines. The headquarters finds out later when people start complaining and it starts to add up. They either fix problems or not.
The Shure SM58 is probably the worlds most used live vocal mike. That's a lot of spittely soaked mics.
Remember Garage-A-Records? Got mine when they were selling the M97xe for $65.
That kind of money today would get you an VM95 with an elliptical stylus.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Nt
What I said was the SAS stylus was bright, in a Shure V15Vmr. In fact, it was so bad that I returned it to Japan for a replacement. JICO said that the stylus was fine. Strangely enough, the second sounded somewhat different and slightly less bright, but still unacceptable, to my ears, and taste. This was 10, or 12 years ago when everyone was raving about them, BTW, not recently. Again, you said that, not me. I see they now have new stylus shapes and cantilevers made of unusual materials, urushi lacquer and probably, hope.So a sample of one body and two stylii. It would be unfair and unrealistic to extrapolate my very limited experience to all SAS stylii. Folks whose opinions I respect like them, so matters of taste, sample to sample variations, incompatibility with the V15Vmr, there are probably more possibilities as well.
Edits: 11/16/21 11/16/21
and I didn't warm to the 103 either until I tried the 103R. That was a different animal, maybe a bigger better brother for some reason. That one sparkled and tracked very well. I sold everything off a few years ago and kept what sounded best to me, the Grace F9e, a NOS Accuphase AC2, and a few others. I liked the Grace so much I ordered a new stylus from Soundsmith and it's wonderful too. I'm just hoping I can outlive 'em all.
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