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In Reply to: RE: LP recordings: Normalization and limiter posted by tketcham on November 10, 2021 at 07:49:34
Wow! I guess my goal is to have my digital recordings of LPs sound like LPs, not like CDs. That kind of defeats the purpose in my opinion.
I use a TASCAM DA-3000 DSD recorder and I copy my LPs in DSD128. I don't use any normalization or limiting and my DSD recordings of vinyl sound spectacular. I've had a number of people tell me that I make the best sounding recordings of vinyl they've ever heard. None of them tell me they sound like CDs. If anything, they tell me my recordings sound just like vinyl and that's my goal.
Good luck,
John Elison
Follow Ups:
"I don't use any normalization"
If you don't set the recording level so the loudest moment just touches digital zero and then you don't normalize then you are giving away bits. By giving away bits you are giving away resolution and your recording of your LPs don't (can't) sound as much like the LPs as they otherwise could/would.
If you do set the record level so that the loudest moment just touches digital zero then there is no reason to normalize the file. It already is normalized.
Normalizing does not change the dynamics. It just insures that the loudest moment uses all the bits. That increases the overall amplitude resolution.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Hi Tre',
I thought you were the professional recording engineer. Did I get that wrong? Anyway, it's not possible to improve resolution through normalization. All you can do with normalization is to increase the volume of your recording to match other recordings. Resolution is set in stone when the digital recording is made.
I used to normalize when I copied vinyl at 24/88 with my Alesis Masterlink because I wanted to match volume levels among all my recordings. Now, I use a TASCAM DA-3000, which has its own recording volume control so I try to set it high enough to capture maximum resolution without clipping any of the peaks. Of course, I always fall short by a few decibels in order to prevent clipping. However, since I now record in DSD128, that format provides ample resolution to capture everything vinyl has to offer, even when the peaks are a few decibels short of full-scale.
Anyway, I used to normalize when I used a digital recorder without a recording volume control, but now that I have the capability to adjust volume before recording and even during recording if I choose, I no longer feel the need for normalization. Moreover, it's not possible to normalize in the digital domain when recording in DSD and I believe DSD sounds better than PCM. Therefore, it's no longer even possible for me to normalize my digital recordings. The best I can do in DSD is to crop my recordings and split each LP side into individual tracks. However, that's enough for me because my digital recordings sound better than ever to my ears.
Best regards,
John Elison
"I no longer feel the need for normalization."
Ya, that's the thing, I do want my recordings to be closer to hi-res albums and CD rips. Not exactly, but at least not a 3 to 8 dB difference, which is typical. I don't mind the processing now that it's pretty efficient.
To each his own!
I prefer not to change every sample in the digital recording just to raise the volume level by 3-dB.
If anything, I would rather clip the loudest peak slightly than to recreate every single digital sample through normalization.
Best regards,
John Elison
"... recreate every single digital sample through normalization."Luckily there's an app for that. ;-)
Edits: 11/12/21
Obviously, there's an app! I just prefer not to use that app to alter every single sample by normalizing. Instead, I prefer to adjust the recording volume control on my DA-3000 so the loudest peak reaches full scale 0-dB. I believe I get a more accurate recording that way.
The only reason I used to normalize my digital recordings was because the Alesis Masterlink did not have an adjustable recording volume control. Now that I upgraded to the TASCAM DA-3000 DSD recorder, it has a recording volume control that I can set to alleviate the need for normalizing. Furthermore, I prefer to copy vinyl in DSD128, which does not allow for normalizing anyway. However, I believe DSD is more accurate than PCM and that's why I record in DSD128.
Like I said, "To each his own!"
Good luck,
John Elison
OK, then. I'm not questioning your method of recording and playback, nor am I trying to convince you to normalize the recordings in PCM, just offering another perspective. You have different priorities than I do, that's all. My priority is to record 1500 albums as efficiently as I can; having to sample and adjust recording levels for each LP is not part of that process. If I were recording the best of those LPs as cleanly as possible, trying to capture the highest resolution afforded by the recorder, I'd probably do the same as you and record as DSD128 and adjust recording levels for each LP.
The biggest difference between you and I is that I still play LPs on a regular basis and being able to record an LP while listening to it being played makes it easy. If I were trying to maximize the sound quality of my LP recordings I wouldn't be trying to record while listening in order to avoid acoustic vibrations. You don't listen (through your speakers) while recording, I do. You record to get the best possible sound quality of a subset of your LP collection, I record to eventually have all my LP music available on a NAS drive. Different objectives, different methods, both legitimate.
Best regards,
Tom
> My priority is to record 1500 albums as efficiently as I can
That's a big job and I hope you're successful. I have only 387 LPs recorded that I'm keeping and only 71 of these are in DSD. I'm sure I've copied a lot more over the years, but I guess some of my early copies are not ones I want to keep. Anyway, 1500 LPs is quite a large project. If I were you, I'd copy my favorite albums first just in case I couldn't finish. I've been copying LPs since 1991 and I have only 387 keepers.
Good luck!
John Elison
Yes, recording 1500 LPs is a bit daunting and perhaps I should prioritize my favorites. But what's surprising, is that I've been pulling LPs out to record that I might not otherwise play. It's been fun bypassing the usual favorites to find the obscure records that I haven't listened to in 15 years or more. Sometimes I'm reminded of why I don't listen to them very often; sometimes I'm reminded to play them more often. Many of the former end up in the donate pile; some of the latter go into clear plastic jackets before going back into the collection. :-)
Tom
that you do it while listening at the same time. Recording as it's frequently called, takes time, and you would have to spend a full year/full time to record 1500, give or take. You might exhibit a mental instability after a week.
Me, I just play the records because I still have them and even if I play a particular album 2-3 times a year I'm not worried about record wear. I still have records from the 70's that went thru a house fire and they still sound...well, not krinkly, but wonderful. Packing them in a rack properly at age 15 saved about half.
Records are amazingly durable if you take care of them.
I'm not worried about record wear and trying to archive them, I'm just being realistic that I won't want to move all the stereo gear and LPs and CDs when we downsize into a small house or apartment. I know I could simply subscribe to a streaming music service and not bother with recording LPs but I'm sentimental and enjoy listening to my album collection now and will certainly in the future. Plus, many of my most treasured LPs are unavailable online.
I don't worry about my mental stability. Not yet anyway. :-)
I hope you're saying that a 24 bit system, at let's say 6db down, has enough resolution to capture the information on the LP.I hope you're not saying that the system is displaying it's full amplitude resolution when the program is peaking at -6db. It isn't, it's 6db down.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 11/11/21
I thought I was saying that you cannot increase the resolution of digital recording through normalization. In other words, if the loudest peak is 6-dB below full scale, you will not increase resolution by normalizing the recording so its peak is raised to 0-dB full scale. All you are doing is raising the volume of your digital recording. If the loudest peak is 6-dB below full scale on a 24-bit recording, you have 23-bit resolution. Normalizing the recording cannot increase resolution beyond 23-bits.
Best regards,
John Elison
"If the loudest peak is 6-dB below full scale on a 24-bit recording, you have 23-bit resolution. Normalizing the recording cannot increase resolution beyond 23-bits."
So when you normalize from -6 to 0 db the noise floor comes up 6db?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
If you believe that normalization will increase resolution, try recording with the peaks 90-dB below full scale on a 24-bit recording and then normalize that recording so its peaks reach 0-dB full-scale. See where you find the noise floor on that one.
Good luck,
John Elison
I'll take that as a yes.
Thanks, I guess I never understood that. Well, all the more reason to make sure to record as hot as you can without allowing digital clipping.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
In the old days, when recording LPs to tape or to a CD recorder, the recording levels were critical in getting the highest resolution from the LP. But now, with digital editing, it's made recording LPs so much more convenient. I no longer have to futz around with setting recording levels for each LP. I may be old, but I do enjoy the digital age.
Toom
I hear you, John, I don't want my LP recordings to sound like compressed digital music. But I don't consider all CD releases to be inferior to vinyl. I have some excellent sounding music ripped from CDs and played through a Node 2i bridge and good DAC. My goal is to have the vinyl recordings be closer in volume to CD rips and digital albums so that I don't have to make such big adjustments in volume levels when switching between albums.
I'm very impressed with the quality of the recordings I'm making using the DA-3000. So much so that more than a few times I've been listening to LP recordings through my Node 2i and thought they were really high quality, hi-res releases I'd purchased. I love listening to vinyl but there's some great music available as hi-res downloads and CD rips.
Tom
Hi Tom,
I own over 40 hi-res DSD256 recordings and they're my favorites. Of course, I own some 16/44 CDs that sound awfully good, too. Anyway, I know what you're talking about. I've been listening to digital exclusively for nearly two years. I might have to connect my turntable again because my daughter wants me to copy some LPs for her. I just gave her a FiiO M11 Pro digital player with a pair of Dynaudio Bluetooth speakers and she loves her new system.
Best regards,
John Elison
Hi, John
Kids these days are able to set up a stereo system so easily. No turntables or tape decks, no amplifier, no interconnects, no media storage. :-)
My sister bought a FiiO M9 for travel and loves it.
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