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As I have mentioned in other posts here, I have a VPI HW19 ll with the Eminent Technology ll tonearm. I have developed a serious vision problem so I am considering replacing the ET arm with a pivoted arm or selling the VPI and ET and buying a new turntable and arm. For the last thirty-two years I have used the record clamp on the VPI and now I find myself leery of turntables which lack a record clamp. That raises the question, just how important are record clamps for best sound? Opinions will be appreciated.
I dream of an America where a chicken can cross the road without having it's motives questioned.
Follow Ups:
...due to slippages over the surface of the platter.
But heavy weights made of metallic materials is not the answer - they create another problem, another more insidious problem - that of magnetic field interference.
The solution is a cheap pieces of plastic like the one sold by clearaudio - the souther clamp which grips onto the spindle and platter and prevents record slippage while at the same time, imposes no magnetic field interference onto the cartridge.
i've often wondered about that unit. light in weight while providing a good grip on the LP is my ideal. i have a French Planamax which is just that but my 76 year old fingers aren't as strong as they once were so i use my SOTA Reflex Clamp, Orsonic 200 gram clamp, or my Maplenoll clamp. i once had a ratshack plastic clamp that also was very effective.
weights just don't make sense to me scientifically. i also very much liked the delrin clamp on my vpi hw19III.
...regards...tr
I've had mine for about the same amount of time ... sitting on the plinth, holding carts, screws, etc. Couldn't abide the sound with it in place on the spindle, but this was so long ago that I don't remember precisely why I found it wanting. And it was two turntables ago. Time to give it another shot, I guess.
mine came with the Souther TQ-1.
It does prevent slippage on my platter.
.I do not use a VPI, BUT ----
Play a record without the clamp.
Play the same record WITH the clamp.
Do you hear (with your own old ears) any difference?Repeat playing records you know well, and those you don't.
You will have your answer.
What I discovered is that, for MOST records in my collection of 2,000, the clamp did not improve the sound and sometimes dulled the sound.
I almost NEVER use a clamp anymore.
.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
Edits: 04/16/21 04/16/21 04/16/21
Without the clamp the record will not sit flat on the platter for two reasons.
1. There is a small rubber washer in the middle of the platter holding the center of the record up off the platter.
2. Even if you take the small rubber washer off the record will still not sit flat on the platter because the platter is slightly concave. The concave platter is part of the clamping system and allows the clamp, in conjunction with the small rubber washer, to hold the record tight against the platter surface.
Because of this I don't think a person can make a valid comparison between the sound produced between "clamp" vs. "no clamp".
I don't think your Clearaudio Champion has a concave platter. I don't see how a clamp would work to hold a record tight against the platter surface of a flat platter. Without out the small rubber washer and the concave shape of the platter (as found on the older VPI turntables) I can only see a clamp causing the record to "curl up" lifting the outer edge away from the platter surface.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
A lot of variables, including one that's often overlooked, the platter/mat surface itself.... Any clamp or weight can be detrimental, for example, if the label area is recessed enough to where a clamp or weight would flex the label area downward, making the outer edge "dish" upward......Now "reflex" clamps have a totally different issue, it often fixes issues with warps, but I've also noticed that the amount of force used to clamp down the record can vary the VTA and azimuth of the stylus on the vinyl surface..... If I were to use such a clamp, I'd find a way to measure the "torque" on the clamp to get the force right, to create the ideal interface of the LP with the platter/mat..... This "torque" could vary with record thickness and "dish" warpage. (I've seen LPs damaged near the center hole due to repeated use of a reflex clamp, the raised center on the platter near the spindle is not kind to vinyl.)
I personally use a very light record weight, to minimize any "flex" on the vinyl.... If the record is "dished" up, to any degree (raising the outer edge off the platter/mat surface), I don't use a (non-reflex) clamp at all (the downward force at the center would exacerbate the warpage).... If the record is "dished" downward (raising the label area off the surface), I opt for a heavier record weight.
Edits: 04/16/21
and I've used them on many different kinds of tables including a VPI.
Whatever resonance is damped by the clamps it always sounds more full without. I'm not sure if anyone takes the slight resonance into account when mastering (but I doubt it), maybe some do and others don't; it doesn't matter to me.
The ET is legendary and maybe it can be rebuilt? If not a pivoted arm had better be a good one. I know of no other Linear Table being made today but my Mitsubishi table (I have 4 tables) still works perfect and sounds wonderful with any number of carts I've used including top level ones, MM and MC. Warped records? It tracks them flawlessly. Ponder everything a bit longer would be my suggestion.
I had that very same set-up for years. (HW19 II/ET II) I found that particular clamping system with the threaded spindle well thought out and user friendly. Since that time I've moved to first a Nottingham table/arm and now to a WTL Amadeus. Neither of these tables recommended any sort of clamping system or weight. Both of these tables and particularly the Amadeus easily bettered the VPI and its clamp. So in the end, if a clamp is an integral part of a turntable's design, I'd use it. If not, I wouldn't be concerned. As others have mentioned, if warped records are an issue for you, consider a Vinyl Flat.
I've used a VPI for many years and am happiest using a 2.5 lb. third party ring weight and (sometimes) also a simple weight in the middle. I find it far easier to use than the fussy screw down VPI clamp that sometimes needs adjustment for a particular warp. Warps are no longer an issue.I sympathize with your vision problem. Obviously a solution would be getting a semi-automatic turntable that would have you simply press a button to get the stylus to the first groove.
On the other hand, if you want to keep the VPI you might consider a solution I offered here some time ago in order to prevent an accident placing the stylus near a ring weight. Using a VPI arm, with this solution, I can place the stylus on the first groove with my eyes closed.
Good luck with whatever choice you make.
Edits: 04/16/21
I briefly had a VPI Scout. I found it disappointing and sold it quickly. One of the gripes i had was the use of the clamp, every side of every record. IMHO this only makes sense with dished records, on the "up" side. Look at the side of the record. The clamp does nothing for a better contact between the record and the platter. For warped records, ditto.
"The torture never stops"Greetings Freek.
"The clamp does nothing for a better contact between the record and the platter"
What makes you say that?
I just took off the rubber washer on my HW-19 and placed a record on the platter. If I lift up the edge of the record and drop it, there is nothing holding the record down to the platter except it's own weight.
Then I put the rubber washer back on the platter and placed the record back on the platter and applied the clamp. Now when I lift up the edge of the record and drop it, it snaps back down hard to the platter. The record is being held tightly to the platter.
What part of this was not happening for you with the Scout?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Look at the side of your platter. With a warped record, the clamp does nothing to improve the record to platter contact. You would need an additional ring to push down the edge of the record.
I checked the VPI motor pod with an acoustic stethoscope. Even with the motor off i heard power supply hum. With the motor on i heard WOOOOOH. Motor noise comparable to my Pioneer Pl-12D which i rescued from the dumpster. Add to that the finicky arm which only seemed to like medium compliance MC's. Quickly sold the VPI.
"The torture never stops"Greetings Freek.
I don't believe the clamp was intended to fix warped records. I was talking about flat records and the interface between them and the platter.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
nt
I've never used record clamps in the past but I'm really enjoying the VPI screw on clamp on the Aries 1 project I'm doing right now. Much better tracking on imperfect LPs than the Thorens 124 I used to have with no clamp. I can't say I notice a sound difference with or without.
...I use a small weight, primarily for the built-in level; force of habit "makes" me use it each spin:
Later Gator,
Dave
It's amazing how much a flash accentuates dust on a record or record player.
You might think about a record cleaner and a Swiffer.
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I never believed in the need for them unless it was to make a severely dished record playable. They always seemed like a really good way to destroy a record as a result of an accidental drop.
So, AFAIAC, they are not at all important.
With the VPI HW-19 I do not believe it's about flattening a warped record, although it does do that to a point.
The VPI platter is concave and there is no platter mat. The clamp forces the record tight against the platter to help dissipate the energy created when the stylus is in the groove.
Because the platter is concave, I believe you have to use the record clamp otherwise the record would not sit flat against the platter surface.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
What I'm saying is the only reason to use a clamp is to flatten a record, IMO of course.
This is what VPI said. Their opinion, of course.
"One of the hallmarks of the VPI playback system is proper mating of the record and the platter. Terminating the resonances excited by the stylus/vinyl interface is critical for lifelike reproduction of the low level nuances normally found in live music. In the HW-19 series of turntables, the resonances are terminated without vacuum, pumps, peripheral clamps, etc. Simple yet precise solutions are always the best."
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I agree. If a disc is warped, it is better to flatten the disc in the first place.
For me, when playing a record for the first time, the VinylFlat is a standard part of the prep after cleaning!
I didn't find a grip that useful for flattening a disc particularly those above 140g. 180g discs are too stiff for a 400g puck to make much of a difference on the convex side, and it does nothing on the other side.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Your HW19 MKII is so adaptable, modifiable and tweakable have you played around with springs, pucks, motor mounts, etc? And for tonearms you've got choices as well. I really liked an upgraded Rega RB300 on my HW19 MKIII. But wait, there's more. What about platters. First the MK III's lead/cork/delrin platter is nice. But so is a 3" acrylic or 3" spun aluminum like a VPI Classic.I assume you put the rubber "washer" or spacer or whatever it's called on the spindle and use the clamp with that? Right?
I had a HW19 MK III for 10 years. I was always making changes to it. Tweaking it and before I was finished I had a VPI SAMA, a SDS Power Supply, solid mounting (no springs/pucks/etc), a 3" acrylic platter and a VPI JMW-9 Tonearm on it.
It's a great TT you just need to bend it to your will and find what suits you best.
After selling the Hw19 I went to a Classic 30 for 5-years and finally have landed with a Rega P8 - no record clamp or anything clamping anything.
Edits: 04/15/21
A bit OT, but since you brought it up...I've been procrastinating for almost three decades on getting back into records. Over that time, I've had the pieces for an HW19 MkV (my nomenclature - pretty much all the tweaks that you performed on yours) sitting in boxes in the basement. In fact, I think I'm going to look in the back of the basement to make sure that you didn't slip in one night and take my stuff. Anyway, I guess that since my daughter is now married and living in another state, I don't need to be concerned about her breaking anything with a nerf ball. Or, worse.
So, here is my question: Based on your experience, would I be better off reassembling and putting the MkV into service or would it be better to sell the parts and buy a Rega Planar 8 or Planar 10 instead? My question isn't so much about the economic aspect of it all, but instead about the reliability and performance comparison.
Thanks!
Edits: 04/16/21 04/16/21
There's no way to answer that question. I've been playing vinyl records since 1963 and had dozens of turntables. In the past 25 years I've had Rega (5), Thorens, Linn, VPI (2) and Technics turntables. I find that I lean toward the Rega sound. Fast, rich, and musical.
So, I can't tell you what you'd like. The VPI with all the goodies is very good, but it's still not much like the Rega house sound I prefer.
When it comes to gear I value personal experience - my personal experience. So, I have to try lots of things to determine what it is that I really gravitate towards. You need to gather your own personal experience to know what you like.
So, yes, pull your gear out of the basement and enjoy it. Then yes, sell it and try something else. Only then will you know if you made a mistake in either of those choices.
OK - thanks.
Perhaps you could comment on reliability and that sort of thing. After all, that is personal experience based but most people have very similar preferences and priorities in regard to whether a product is reliable or if it breaks a lot.
I've never had a reliability issue with any turntable I've owned. So, I don't really even consider that a part of the equation.
Is the real question...
Try your current TT without the record clamp .. then decide.
I'm not sure he can.His platter is concave.
Without the record being clamped down to the platter the record would not sit on the platter.
That wouldn't be a fair comparison.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 04/15/21 04/15/21
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