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In Reply to: RE: Ultrasonic cleaning - how long? posted by JeffH on February 05, 2021 at 19:57:20
I have a Kirmuss. It's 2 RPM. The Kirmuss process calls for applying the surfactant solution directly to the record, and then working the surfactant into the grooves with a brush. According to Mr. Kirmuss, the cavitation activity of the machine will blast the surfactant off within ~2 minutes. Once the surfactant is gone the ability of the cavitation to reach the bottom of the groove are substantially reduced. For most records I give them two two-minute baths with surfactant applied before each bath. They then get a distilled water spritz/rinse, and then a manual dry with the jewelers grade microfiber cloth.
With your setup I'd think 4-5 minutes would be sufficient. Of course this will vary based on how dirty the record is to start with.
Follow Ups:
Sondek wrote, "According to Mr. Kirmuss, the cavitation activity of the machine will blast the surfactant off within ~2 minutes. Once the surfactant is gone the ability of the cavitation to reach the bottom of the groove are substantially reduced."
There's a lot of things that Mr. Kirmuss claims that I'm skeptical of - or at least don't understand. For example, placing the LP in the tank with surfactant on the LP... I do that because it seems like it should help clean the LP better, but it seems to me that the surfactant in the LP groove is immediately washed away, or at least severely diluted, as soon as it's put in the tank.
How can a liquid on the surface of an LP stay on the LP after the LP is submersed in a tank of liquid? Is the Kirmuss surfactant sticky? I don't have a Kirmuss machine, so I don't know what the surfactant solution is like.
It is my use of the Kirmuss system that gives me the right to respond here. Early in this journey, I didn't give 'enough' rinsing to the LPs I cleaned, and later discovered the secret to ultrasonic cleaning (at least one of them): spend more time rinsing the records after ultrasonic cleaning then the time you spent with them in the 'tank'....and I will say, the first rinse led the optical cloth (when drying) to have a lot more friction than I would expect...
...in short, IMHO....yes, the surfactant is at least a 'hair' sticky.
Furthermore, I am now a BIG FAN of spreading a thin layer of surfactant on the lp and using the supplied brush to 'scrub' the life out of those grooves on each side before each 'run in the tank'. I also do a similar thing with the distilled water (spread and scrub with brush) then dry before I do the same with the surfactant for another 'tank round'.
I am listening as I type to a $3.00 usd 1970's London pressing of Holst's The Planets with Solti (the performance Mo-Fi reissued) I got 15 or so years ago at Jerry's Records in Pittsburgh PA back then....I ran this process yesterday, and MY GOODNESS......SO CLEAR, SO DETAILED, SO SMOOTH, SO DYNAMIC.....no surface noise and a tick from static a minute or two LITERALLY !!
I was thinking about getting a 'more upscale' ultrasonic cleaner, but with the 'elbow grease' I am using in combo with ultrasonics...the only way I can see improving results is getting a record vac and using it instead of just wiping with the optical cloth.....but I'm sure I'm getting in the 90% percentile results with what I am doing now....just takes time...BUT SO WORTH IT !!
Martin N.
Wow you are definitely a vinyl cleaning superman :)
Seriously though, I can see how your diligent before and after steps would pay off but I was hoping I could get away without pre-scrub and post wash.
I guess I'll see how it goes this week...
I do have the time, it's the tedium that gets me...
If art interprets our dreams, the computer executes them in the guise of programs!
Nobody knows for sure what's in his surfactant solution. All I know about it is that it's ~97% distilled water. The remainder is some kind of surfactant and propylene glycol.And yes, it does have a slightly sticky feel to it.
The link is to the Kirmuss FAQ where there is some discussion of things.
Edits: 02/08/21
The cavitation/sonic energy will most certainly help to rinse surfactant off the record but unless you're constantly flowing fresh water, or changing the water out, all you're doing is diluting it.
Depending on the concentration you use before the ultrasonic, that may be fine but every bit you put into the bath is still there.
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