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In Reply to: RE: Ortofon 2M Black to replace Grado Platinum Reference ? posted by KANADDICT on August 08, 2017 at 18:16:37
The Shibata tip will be fussy with having the arm height set accurately. You should have an extended top end, but smooth. SRA errors result in high frequency scanning loss (equivalent to tape head azimuth) so it sounds like arm height should be something to look into. Note that you can't use a USB microscope as the Shibata tip does not have the scanning line on the shank axis. My 2M Blue has a reference "height" of 18.6mm so start off with an arm height that matches this and then fine tune around this value and see if you achieve what you want. Grado cartridges are normally loved by people wanting a warmer presentation so I wouldn't suggest you go down that route.
If you want a more up front sound, perhaps consider an AT cartridge?
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
Follow Ups:
I'll just be a trifle pedantic by pointing out that the height of the 2M series of cartridges is 18.0mm, not 18.6 ( I didn't recognise the latter figure in relation to my 2M mono). Dimensional drawings are in the user guides which are downloadable from the Ortofon website.
That Shibata stylus does indeed require careful setting up. The OP may also like to bear in mind that some feel that the Bronze version is actually musically preferable to the Black.
"...some feel that the Bronze version is actually musically preferable to the Black."
I don't have one, but I've had several dealers say the Bronze is better. I use a Blue, which, for $236, is extremely good in my setup.
I disagree. I found the Bronze too bright and lacking bottom end weight compared to the more overall balanced Black.
See ya. Dave
Well, as I indicated, I was just reporting what at least 2 dealers said. As I also said, I haven't ever heard the Bronze-or the Black for that matter.
The Black got 30% more votes in Fremer's cartridge comparison than the Bronze. This was a blind test.
As usual, too much reliance on numbers.
Michael Fremer may be more skilled than most at adjusting the SRA of the Black's finicky Shibata stylus than most people. Especially for a single test disk.
That doesn't mean, necessarily, that the Black is a better choice for most people. It could be that without continual readjusting the Bronze will sound better on a variety of disks.
We only know that more people " preferred" the Black but not the criteria that they used to reach this decision. Neither do we have we any details of their suitabilty to make any such judgement in this sphere nor the equipment that they used in making the judgement and whether or not it may or may not have had a bearing on their decision.
I am not saying that the Black is not "better" (whatever that means) than the Bronze, just that some say the latter is preferable musically. As many audio enthusiasts seem to be only concerned with detail, bass and little else then the criterion of musical ability may or may not have influenced the survey's results.
I find such surveys of superficial general interest only. I would not give them greater credence and would certainly not use them to influence a buying decision.
nt
> I find such surveys of superficial general interest only.
> I would not give them greater credence and would certainly not use them to influence a buying decision.
I agree! If I were going to buy a new cartridge, I'd buy an Audio Technica. The Audio Technica AT-ART7 is my favorite cartridge at the moment, but if I decide to buy a MM cartridge, I'd probably buy one of the new Audio Technica MM cartridges. Of course, the Audio Technica AT150ANV got the most votes in Fremer's cartridge test, which pretty much coincides with my opinion of Audio Technica. However, I think I'd go for one of the new Audio Technica cartridges.
Thanks,
John Elison
..surprised me actually based on my experience with the AT150MLX. The ATN150MLX stylus is the official "replacement" for the 150ANV body and the AT150MLX cartridge I bought was from the generation after the ANV had been released so that the nominal VTF range had shifted up to the same range as the ANV compared to the original ATN150MLX styli I have.
The frequency response charts between the 150MLX and the ANV are identical - the 150MLX body is substantially similar (apart from the price and the cantilever material for the stylus) and the AT MM "House Sound" seems consistent across the MM bodies I've measured so I would expect it to have the same emphasis around 12kHz which gives a very detailed "hifi" sound, but can be a little fatiguing to my ears. This is when loaded at the recommended 47k and I choose around 130pF for the total capacitive load.
I guess it all depends on individual preferences.
I bought one of the new bodies to test out so I can compare to my older bodies and see if the frequency response characteristic is similar.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
You can hear that or did you measure that? To my old ears, such a peak would be irrelevant or inaudible unless it was dramatic in amplitude. To me, "fatiguing" means there's a treble emphasis anywhere above 2kHz.
Good God, again I'll say I was only reporting what a couple of dealers said to me. I don't need a barrage of information to prove or disprove anything to me. I suppose these dealers who offered their opinions need a hundred lashes with expensive cables to whip them into shape.
What I find fascinating about this is that those dealers would actually make more money if they pushed the Black rather than the Bronze.
Sorry! I didn't mean to upset you. This is a public forum and I was just providing truthful information to those interested in Ortofon 2M cartridges. Personally, I could care less. I'm into moving coils exclusively at the moment. Furthermore, if I were interested in MM cartridges, I'd probably start with the new line of Audio Technica MM cartridges.
Perhaps your dealer friends were telling the truth regarding their experiences and perhaps the 2M Bronze sounded better in their particular vinyl front-ends. After all, 60 people voted for the Bronze as the best sounding cartridge in Fremer's listening test. It's just that 84 people voted for the Black. Go figure!
Sorry!
John Elison
My earlier post apparently was deleted, I suppose because it could have been construed as politically provocative , so I'm going to try this again.
"I was just providing 'truthful' information to those interested in Ortofon 2M cartridges."
"Perhaps your dealer friends were telling the "truth" regarding their experiences..."
"Truth" is a difficult concept to establish in an area as prone to subjectivism as the audiophile world. To paraphrase, one man's truth is another man's poison.
> "Truth" is a difficult concept to establish in an area as prone to subjectivism as the audiophile world.
It depends on what you're talking about.
When I said that I was just providing truthful information, I was referring to the fact that I was truthfully reporting the results of Fremer's listening test, which had been previously published by Fremer. There should be no question about my use of the word "truthfully" in this scenario. Furthermore, there is no subjectivism involved in my objective statement. ;-)
I was not stating that one cartridge was better than another like your dealer friends. I was simply reporting the factual voting results from a listening test conducted by Michael Fremer.
Best regards,
John Elison
a gnat's ass whisker?
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
I'll see your pedantry and raise you.... ;-)
Mine is based on an actual measurement on a calibrated shadow graph. It is the height of the undeflected system and was actually 18.65mm averaged from 10 measurements. As you will no doubt have observed, I suggested using that as a starting position and fine tuning. The arm height scale on the SL1200 for example is based on an undeflected cartridge height. Either way 50um is not going to be resolvable by most people. 0.6mm may also be of little relevance if he doesn't adjust for individual record thickness! On the other hand setting 18.6 will provide a reasonable solution that covers thicker heavy weight vinyl and normal thickness LPs.
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
Thanks but if the specification says that the height is 18.0 mm but your measurement indicates that your sample is 18.6 then the error in manufacture seems to preclude a recommendation based upon a theoretic standard. After all the OP's new cart may be 18.00mm high or 18.6 or 17.9 or anything in between (or either side).
Michael Fremer , a subscriber to the 92 degree SRA idea, has also found out that no stylus/cantilever manufacturer can guarantee SRA better then + or - 2 degrees. With a 9" arm that's a variation of 8mm at the pillar either way according to his figures.
So it seems that the only practical answer is to eyeball a level arm tube to start then vary either side up or down until the best sounding average over a number of sides is decided upon. Just what I have been doing for several decades :-)
I'm sure the intention is that a user may infer that this number (in the drawing) is the typical height after deflection when the VTA specification has been achieved.
However, without tolerances, those dimensions cannot be taken as "specifications". Different manufacturers seem to specify the dimensions differently, with varying deviation from the drawings. AT specify the AT120/440/etc as being 17.3mm. I have consistently measured between 0.05 to 0.12mm higher with an uncertainty of ±0.01mm. This suggests that the drawing assumes the ACTUAL undeflected height as being the more likely reference (allowing for about 0.5mm). My DL304 on the other hand measured 0.72±0.01mm higher suggesting that 15.5mm (unspecified tolerance) must be after deflection.
It largely depends on the cantilever length. The tip to mounting hole centre is the parameter that varies directly with cantilever length and so for a given VTA specification, the cartridge height will change.
I am measuring the undeflected dimension as the SL1200 arm height scale is calibrated to THIS value. Using the static compliance figure for the stylus, one can infer the deflection for a given VTF to be the "in use" height. I normally "fine tune by ear" at this point as there will be an uncertainty of roughly ±0.1mm in the drawing dimensions I would assume, so a rough guess would be to subtract about 0.5mm off the undeflected height taking into account recommended VTF (in combination with static compliance).
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
A good point about cantilever deflection which I had overlooked.
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