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In Reply to: RE: New Cartridge posted by fstein on July 12, 2017 at 09:53:00
Good choice!
I went 'round and 'round with with the confusing array of aftermarket ADC styli available for the ADC XLM. The information on the internet is contradictory but it seems to me that ADC, late in their life as a company, had stylus-makers in Japan building needles for the ADC carts. So some sellers claim they have "genuine" ADC replacements. Who can tell? At the end of the day, you just want the best replacement you can find, eh?
The bloggers seem to point generally to the "XLM Improved Mk II" - [that's the "RXL" Model 108-DET, if I understand it correctly] an elliptical tip. Supposedly this is the best-sounding the of the replacements available today. (I would not recommend buying any "new old stock" 20+ year-old styli in any circumstances.) The 108-DET tracks at 1.5 gm which is good, don't want to go much above that says the common wisdom regarding record wear.
I recently chose a 108-DET from the Voice of Music. I'm just a happy customer, not a "shill" and TVoM have shown good judgement in the styli they stock. Gary there says these are good units. $49. It sounds great!- indistinguishable from my original XLM-II and tracks and beautifully. This replacement brought the sparkle back but kept the same sound.
Until you spend a LOT more money, the ADC XLM cart is very hard to beat in terms of performance- it is very quiet, has a fine octave-to-octave balance, and tracks everything beautifully. It has a warm, full sound through the mids and no overemphasis on the treble. It's better sound than some low-price MC's IMHO and represents an outstanding price/ performance unit!
You must use the XLM in a low-mass arm- it has a very high compliance and a heavy arm will not allow it to develop its potential! Likewise, keep the tracking force low- that highly compliant suspension can collapse if overloaded.
There is something to the idea of finding a great vintage cart body and matching a new high-quality aftermarket stylus for it. It's a vintage-gear thing... You have to do the research. Another of my new-old carts is described in the post below. Brought than baby home for under $100 and it sounds absolutely terrific, different from the ADC, better in some small ways.
Follow Ups:
I am sorry if this is a subject that is not the focus of this thread and if it is a subject where there are different points of view but I thought this was put to rest over 30 years ago.
There has been a resurrection of the low VTF/record wear pseudo-logic now that vinyl playback has become popular once again. This is not the first post where I have seen the issue mentioned.
The low VTF/record wear mania coincided with a Shure marketing campaign and I believe that the whole subject is mainly due to Shure's marketing efforts. I still remember the posters at retailers who sold Shure cartridges.
The Shure V15 was one of the first low VTF cartridges that touted excellent "trackability" and this was supposed to help bring about low record wear. I owned many of these low VTF cartridges and subsequently have owned many LOMC cartridges that are not low VTF models. My record collection has not suffered in the least when I switched away from the low VTF cartridges over 30 years ago.
Record wear is a subject that is near and dear to most of us. The problem that I have with the "low VTF" followers is that I have had much more problems with low VTF cartridges than I ever had with heavier tracking cartridges.
I buy used LPs as well as new pressings and I have the same problem that many of us do. Mistracking damage that usually shows itself in the inner grooves (but not limited to that location). I do not have statistics to back the next point out but low VTF cartridges and mistracking damage caused by low VTF issues are more of a problem than a cartridge that tracks at a higher VTF.
Low VTF cartridges have precious little range where mistracking can occur if something is amiss. The problems read like a list of things we all face: worn stylus, warped LP, high velocity program material, misadjusted cartridge alignment, etc.
Anything that is wrong when a cartridge is tracking at a low VTF will likely result in mistracking and any benefit that low VTF may bring is more than mitigated by damaged grooves. We have all seen these in the used record bins and they are likely caused by too low a tracking force, not the opposite.
All of this was argued long ago and the "record-wear via low VTF" issue was summarily put to bed. Shure "trackability" claims and any relationship to lower record wear could be argued in a laboratory (of course lower VTF results in lower pressure on the groove walls) but the problems caused by mistracking at too low a VTF cannot be ignored either.
I know my LP collection has not seen any record wear problems due to my switching to higher VTF cartridges over 30 years ago. I know by practice it is not the issue that some claim that it is. I wish this pseudo-science would finally go away and not affect new LP owners.
Can we be fair to these new vinylphiles and not make them go through the same nonsense that happened back in the 1970s? It is way past time that BS be recognized as BS. Ultra low effective mass tonearms are not even being made anymore. It is time this subject be recognized as what it is.
Sorry if anyone is offended,
Ed
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
Design factors determine PU tracking (plus arm mechanics) but if, ideally, you can't cleanly trace the groove @/near manufacturers lower-end specs then there's something wrong/inappropriate; and subsequent 70's low-mass arms extended that range even further (ie SME/III compared to Series 2).
So it's tedious to encounter endless Old Wives' claims that a max weight is required: an ADC XLMII/III, in an optimal arm, requires ~1g:- there's no advantage in tracking ( <)50% heavier (excepting theoretical beyond normal velocities) but manufacturers do widen their spec for sub-optimal 'good' arms ...and provide lesser models.
Nor, in the case of ADC/Shure, should you need worry about inherent suspension degradation over many decades storage.
Tracking at the lower end of manufacturers specs is not a great thing to attempt. The cartridge has a recommended tracking force range for a reason and that reason is not ours to discard.
The VTF range is arrived at after lots of experimentation and engineering on the part of the people who design the cartridge. The VTF range includes, as part of its reasoning, the location of the coil, magnets, actuator within the magnetic field. This is effected by the VTF and the recommended VTF setting has much to do with optimum positioning of generator parts in the cartridge.
Trying to make the cartridge track at its minimum VTF is asking for problems you really do not need. If you succeed maybe you can brag about it but I'm not in this hobby to brag about what VTF setting I track at. Also, at the lower end of the VTF range invites mistracking issues, which I mentioned in my last post.
Keeping the stylus in firm contact with the groove walls is important from too many aspects to mention and top quality musical reproduction starts with proper tracking of as much information as the stylus can extract. If the stylus looses contact with the groove walls, you are either loosing resolution or the stylus may make contact with the opposite wall of the groove and start slamming back and forth...hence mistracking.
Like I started, its not worth pushing the cartridge to try and make it track at the lowest end of its VTF range. Too low a VTF is more of an issue than a higher VTF.
I have always used the recommended setting or, in absence of that figure, mid-way in the VTF range. If the difference between the low end of the range and the middle of the VTF range is 0.5 grams, I cannot see how 0.5 grams will extend the lifespan on my LPs. I can believe it may help properly track the grooves but save my LPs? Thats laughable.
The difference between what I used to track at with the Shure V15s or ADC XLMs (I owned quite a few of those over the years) and my current LOMCs is about 1 gram VTF. I've been using LOMC cartridges for close to 40 years now without any LP wear issues.
Ed
We don't shush around here!
Life is analog...digital is just samples thereof
Wouldn't bother claiming anything when there are Pulpit Preachers who, apparently, know The Real Facts ; but do feel rather sorry for "newbies" who get bamboozled by Group-Think Gobbledegook!
That's not what Shure says.
"Suddenly, I'm not half the man I used to be. 'Cause now I'm an amputee" J. Lennon
Come off it: it doesn't say that.
Explain why I've dozennns of original stylii (NOS), 70's on, that are fine/'as new' - sealed-cased/checked...including Illinois N91ED...even those previously used - and nearly 50yo.
How much OZONE do you think's going to get to/affect them? (big ozone hole above the USofA ??).
Old Wives' Scare Tactics - however, JAP elastomers are not time-stable, from my experience: which is not the point, here.
I hope the moderator deletes your post! There is no room for that sort of low life racist crap in today's world!
By the way the OEM cartridge and stylus in my Audio Technica Mister Disc still work fine. So take that!
Phil
You Hope - You Hope...presumably referring to those folks you Atomised - and who ate your Sailors with Rice: Yummy....
A not unreasonable assumption is that quite a few remaining 'regulars' hereabouts are essentially Institutionalised...happy to endlessly read/write the same old stuff.
Scarcely any of you actually USE such vintage cartridges, then gaily inform me of your Historical Recollections/Assumptions.
The OVERWEENING ARROGANCE displayed upon writing what 'you' don't wish to read/believe is Laughable: scarcely surprising that most folks have departed over the years (if you hadn't noticed) - and the amount of useful info that can be gleaned is utterly minimal.
Certainly not worth me bothering anymore!
I chose one answer from the Shure site to re-post. A larger search of the site gives a similar answer regarding suspension hardening numerous times.
Whether or not Shure is correct may be open to debate, but to say "it doesn't say that" when it says exactly that is delusional.
"Explain why I've dozennns of original stylii (NOS), 70's on, that are fine/'as new' - sealed-cased/checked"
Checked? Checked how? Do you have a miniature durometer you check the suspensions with? Rather than suggesting Asylum members are spreading old wives tales, perhaps you don't want to imagine that your cartridges suspensions aren't all that they should be after so many years, even unopened. Then again, they could be fine, and I hope they are. But I'm going on the assumption that Shure, with multi-thousands of cartridges sold over the years, would have more expertise on the subject than you.
We're all free to do and believe what we choose to. I know that if I chose to use my Shure VST V again after all these years, I'd be buying a new Jico stylus with a fresh suspension, rather than a NOS "Official Shure Replacement Stylus" ebay offering which had been stored in somebody's attic for the last thirty years.
"Suddenly, I'm not half the man I used to be. 'Cause now I'm an amputee" J. Lennon
Trackability test tracks would usually be helpful for checking. If the results are close to the original specs or results from old reviews, that would seem a reasonably good indicator that the suspension is still ok. Alternatively one can also check for deflection und a certain static load, if the static compliance is specified.
It's quite surprising, how many among the old NOS needles are still good, suitable storage conditions provided.
Greetings from Munich!
Manfred / lini
1.5g seems shockingly high - original II / Integra II / III track everything (easily) @ 1.05g.
TTN's DET-114 appear to be genuine Integra II (RXM-II) @ $74 (are the 108 genuine?) and should be USA made. (I see 2x boxed cost me £24 BIN in 2007 (+2 more free) - my edsaunders (been using it for a few months in an XLM II body) being $29.25 in 2005.
A particular advantage of the Integra RXM-II is the stylus grip material - which is more inert/harder than the soft black plastics - which cast a bloom/muddying resonance over the sonics.
nt
Turntableneedles has a house brand nude elliptical and a bonded Jico that should have a good probability of sounding good. I have not tried them though.
Dave
nt
Arm is Magnepan unitrac, low mass
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