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Hello,
I'm a newbie to the world of TT & phono stages etc. I would like to know what are the suitable budget TT & phono stage to feed into an Accuphase C-2410 pre-amp. Many Thanks.
Follow Ups:
...every individual that contributed to my inquiry. Made my learning easier. You guys bring an infectious passion as well. At a later date I will update you'll on my purchase and progress. Many Thanks.
I haven't seen anyone recommend an old Thorens deck. I just upgraded from a Technics SL-220 to a Thorens TD 160, and the improvement in sound is palpable.
The general rule I advocate now, is:
1. Turntable/tonearm quality is most important
2. If you are on a budget, next most important is the phono preamp
3. Next most important is cartridge
If budget is of no issue, the order would be 1. turntable/arm, 2. caeridge (MC), 3. phono stage.
My two cents.
Several people have mentioned the Orbit TT from UTurn Audio and I would urge you to take a look at their Web site. The tables range from $179 for the most basic with an Audio-Technica cartridge to $595 fully tricked out with an Ortofon MM Blue.
I recently heard this table during a demo by Frank Van Alstine of Audio by Van Alstine. He was using his own modified Grado Gold cartridge (and his $500 phono preamp) to replace the Ortofon and it sounded amazing. In fact, I thought it sounded as good as, if not better than, his new $1800 DAC that was the real intended focus of the demo session.
If you combine this table-which is a no muss, no fuss package (they don't sell a TT not outfitted with a cartridge already installed and set up)-with an inexpensive phono pre from Schiit, Parasound, NAD, Rega, etc, you can get away with less than $400.
Personally, I would head down to Magnolia HiFi and ask to audition a Pro-ject turntable in my price range and see what that yields.
Failing that, I would try to get a Rega P2 used that is not too old, maybe from a dealer tradein and then spend the least possible on a phono preamp and see how things go from there.
The only problem I have with Pro-ject turntables, is that they don't come with a lid AFAIK and I think that would be essential.
The only other turntable I would consider at that price range would be a used Technics SL-1200 because you guys have mentioned it so many times, but I've never heard one.
I do like the all-in-one that somebody mentioned for a newbie. I like that very much, because someone did ask me about how to get into vinyl, but I didn't pay much attention to that because unless someone has a lot of money OR a lot of cheaply acquired vinyl, what is the purpose? To be COOL, well, maybe.
may be a fool not to sell it while the market is HOT. What isn't new is NM. The ease of digital is more alluring at 66 than it used to be. But I love the sound I have now from my dream TT. My digital, though good, no longer competes. OK, enough of this heretical talk. Please pardon my foul talk
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You paid HOW MUCH for that electrical receptacle?!!! Are YOU nuts?
Edits: 07/10/17
Both new. If that was my budget and wanted new these would be my choices.
Good luck.
-Wendell
$500 doesn't go very far in vinyl playback. It used to. But you had to be knowledgeable of what table to buy on ebay. The resurgence of vinyl has driven up prices. BCR gave a TT in your price range. But is that table up to the job? I'd trust John's recommendation more. But its $1k
Ralph gave a good explanation of the shortcomings of vinyl vs digital yesterday on another site. In short, he said the problem with vinyl is the shortcomings of the playback system. Its always been known that creating good vinyl playback is more costly than digital playback. Cheap cartridges enhance surface noise, pops and clicks. Cheap arms wear records through mis-tracking. I used to buy records for 10 cents. That was the alure of vinyl plus they CAN sound better than digital. Now a cheap record is probably $5 or more, if you can find them in good shape. I've been out of the used market so I'm unsure.
Now, if you still want to proceed and you understand that a $500 vinyl experience will most likely be inferior to the same amount spent in digital playback, then continue on by all means. You may enjoy the tactile feel of the album cover and the album itself. This is where the ritual comes in. Lots of info in the cover. Cover art used to be very important.
Vinyl must be clean. So you will need a way to clean your albums before playing them. Not every time. But you will need tgo clean them. I did it by hand for a year or so after getting back into vinyl. I also had a discwasher for maintenance. But its no good for thrift store finds. So you will need a brush to brush off the dust which comes on LP's. Even though they are in a jacket, the dust still finds them. No biggie. $20 for a brush. Then you will need a way to take the static charge from the record. That draws the dust and makes for poor sound too. The Milty Zerostat is $75.
Then there is the ritual itself. get ready to change lift the arm every 20 minutes or so. Never ever touch the grooves. Always use the cue lever to set the needle (stylus) down on the record and use it to lift the arm off the record. Stay away from paper sleeves because they help build up static and dust. get some anti-static sleeves from Sleeve City. New albums will usually come with good sleeves. Thrift store finds will not.
I don't hang around here much but have played vinyl for 55-60 years. The one thing that I suspect all of us on Vinyl asylum enjoy is the vinyl experience. Unlike digital, vinyl demands involvement. If you want convenience, vinyl is not for you. There is a learning curve with vinyl also. That''s part of the involvement. If you enjoy the involvement which vinyl demands, then it can be very rewarding.
I write all this not to scare you off. I began buying records at age 8. I'm 66 now. I bought into the "perfect sound forever" sales pitch and went digital early on. The lack of involvement left me feeling as if I was missing something. I came back to vinyl and hung out a the Thrift stores for years until I built up a substantial collection of LP's. I still play 90% vinyl. I hope you get into it and have the pleasure I and many others have had.
My only concern is your budget and not having enough to get an adequate feel for what is really available. Your Accuphase is good equipment from my understanding. But no system is any better than its weakest link. I'd hate to see you get disappointed in vinyl all because you never gave it a fair chance.
Just one man's thoughts. Sorry for the long post. I wish you the best
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You paid HOW MUCH for that electrical receptacle?!!! Are YOU nuts?
A $500 vinyl system will not be adequate for the audiophool, but its not necessarily a bad place to start. My only recommendation is to buy used since (assuming you get bit by the vinyl bug) when you sell it you will recoup most of your investment. I bought my first record player in 1997 and didn't know a thing about them. I got a few records, learned how to set things up and what the parts do and the names of things etc.. I was in college and didn't have much money. 7 years later I bought my first real record player, the technics 1200. I learned about modifying and upgradeing. I learned about tinkering and it was good enough to experiment with some fairly decent carts. I picked up a rek-o-kut and learned about idler drives and DIY. I then picked up a VPI Traveler and get into the realm of modern belt drives. I then sold everything and used that money to pay for a new VPI Prime and I couldn't be happier. All that tinkering over the past 13 years was a blast, and it set me up to get the right table for me and my tastes. I'm done tinkering, all I do now is enjoy.
Also, I totally agree about a record cleaning machine. I used to do it by hand with a shop vac thing I rigged up. My wife bought me a purpose built record cleaning machine for Christmas. Funny thing was I caught wind that it was coming and thought "oh great, we just pissed $500 away on something I don't need or want." but I couldn't tell her that. So I acted surprised and feigned excitement, but then I actually used it!!! A cleaning project that used to take 10 minutes now only takes a minute! Multiply that by the ~1000 records I have and you have one of the most useful time saving possessions I own!!! Lesson learned, don't second guess the wife!
You can't cheat an honest man, never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump -- W.C. Fields
Thank you for your insight and passion.
Fluance RT-81, comes with a built in defeatable phono preamp and a very good AT-95E cartridge. Best part, it's only $249. I own one as a backup table. Surprisingly good sound.
Opus 33 1/3
...very surprised at how good the AT sounded. I still keep it mounted and ready as a backup. I could probably live with it if I had to.
Later Gator,
Dave
Your are the master of of the budget build. Personally, I went vintage, but for most people, who can't fix stuff, that can be problematic.
Dave
Opus 33 1/3
.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
I didn't see this TT before I posted. I'd still be concerned with the built in phono pre. Then too, I believe most often overlook the value of a good phono preamp.
I haven't been in the market for a TT for a long time so I don't know what budget tables are available. I know that the resurgence of vinyl has brought out a lot of people who are capitalizing on the need. The question for me is how good these new mfgs are in building a good TT?
=========================
You paid HOW MUCH for that electrical receptacle?!!! Are YOU nuts?
Opus 33 1/3
Every time I look at that name my brain says Flatulence.
Sorry.
Later Gator,
Dave
Opus 33 1/3
Typically I suggest to people who are just wanting to get their feet wet to get something used from a thrift store or craigslist. However I see you are in Dubai and frankly I have no idea what kind of access you have to used vintage turntables there. Typically I suggest getting something that works and looks and feels well made. Back when turntables were mass produced the efficiencies of scale as well as fierce competition produced very good quality products. You can get better products today but perhaps not in the price range you quoted. Typically good name brands are yamaha, kenwood, panasonic. technics, JVC, Empire, Sony and others etc... They also made cheap POS's too but you can usually sort them out by how it feels. Just make sure it works and you'll want a new stylus.
Then when you've been bitten by the vinyl bug (and you most likely will) get something of better quality such as a premium vintage table or something new like VPI. VPI offers everything from the $1000 combo option that John mentioned to $50K. They also have turntable lines that offer upgrade options so you can get the base model, then save a little and upgrade the motor or platter or etc... This allows you to ease into it a bit, but still it is a higher starting price than you quoted.
If you don't have access to a vintage TT resale market locally then the Uturn suggestion made by BCR is probably your best bet in your price range. I've never heard one, but I have heard good things about their products.
Nate
You can't cheat an honest man, never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump -- W.C. Fields
Agreed, my statements are concerning the local market, absolutely no clue what the analogue situation is like in Dubai lol.Martin
Hmmm, not sure why Dubai was mentioned, I see you're actually in Texas?
Edits: 07/09/17
The OP is in Dubai.
You can't cheat an honest man, never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump -- W.C. Fields
"The OP is in Dubai."Not what I am reading, even his original post said Texas from inception.
And this is from his profile, and was there when I stated it earlier.
Jai - Music Lover/Audiophile
Texas, United States
Edits: 07/09/17 07/09/17
Apologies. I just updated my profile. I used to live in Dubai. I live in Texas now.
There are lots of good vintage choices. Are you interested in that option?
Dave
Yes, please
If you set out looking for a particular table, you will probably pay through the nose. Start stalking. IMO there are too many good ones to list. If you find them in good condition, Pioneer, Technics, Sansui and Kenwood tables can be had for cheap. The better models can be quite good. I personally lucked into an LP12 in a thrift store. You never know what you will find.
Dave
None needed, your original post had your location as Texas.
Martin
Here ya go!
I'm going to second this deck. I have no personal experience with it but it's in your price range and will get you started and leave you some financial "wiggle room."
Sim
Just WAY too much plastic on entry level decks, even vintage decks. One place you don't want a lot of plastic is around the arm base/bearing.
Martin
its a sub $500 TT, arm, cart, phono preamp. Prior to the new vinyl boom, $500 may have given you a decent quality. Used vintage TT were a dime a dozen before the resurgence of vinyl. Now they are 3-4-$500 and more.
The thing that worries me is the experience of the person who wants to try vinyl on $500. What kind of experience will they have? Good or bad? Good digital is much cheaper than good vinyl. Always has been.
=========================
You paid HOW MUCH for that electrical receptacle?!!! Are YOU nuts?
Agreed, it's really only possible used, and even then only if everything falls into place. The table has to be without issue at the right price, the cartridge/stylus with life left in it, and the phono stage already in place.
If deciding to start "entry level" my recommendation would be something like a used Sony PS LX22 for less than a Benjamin, install an AT95E all in for under $150, then see if I wanted to take the next step.
But I still prefer my original suggestion, otherwise the experience is being hindered and vinyl may be found lacking.
Martin
Are you also considering used?
That KD-770D is an excellent sounding deck. That's when Kenwood started using coreless motor. I used to own one until the motor or electronics died on me. The sound is fluid and musical, just like any good direct drive table with coreless motor. The straight tonearm with detachable headshell is also nice but try not to lose the headshell because you will have a hard time finding another one!
Sure. I'm open.
The table in my earlier post is a Kenwood KD770D, kind of rare but they show up on eBay fairly regularly. Often with a commensurate asking price, but if patient can be had for under $400. I purchased mine about 18months ago with a cartridge worth more than the asking price installed.It would take a lot of $$$$$ on a new deck to compete with this table.
Another great Kenwood deck within your price range is the KD500. Again, you will often see this deck offered for what I would consider a HUGE bargain, upwards of $1200, but if patient scoring a pristine deck under $400 is possible. This is the same deck as the KD550, but sold sans arm it usually has a nice botique arm like the Infinity Black Widow or the Grace G707 like mine. When released the KD500 was Kenwood's TOTL model, later replaced by the KD600, another great deck, but I only recommend what I have personal experience owning.
The KD770D wasn't Kenwood's TOTL offering when it was released, but it was one of their top tier models with impeccable performance. Plus being the newer deck it wasn't designed at a time when ultralight arms sporting super compliant cartridges were the de rigueur so the cartridge selection will be wider.
Either of these decks are good enough they just might be your first and last table.
I've purchased four decks on eBay without any real issues, so don't let the naysayers keep you from this great market.
Martin
I should mention, these are both large heavy decks so ample room and support are required.
Edits: 07/09/17
Nice looking TT's. Now, are those with built-in phono stage or do you have that separately? I read somewhere a good phono stage should have MC & MM- could you talk about that?
Also, what is your preference MC or MM? Thanks.
In general MC are considered better than MM by most people. But, they are also more expensive. The cheapest MC cart I would get is the Denon 103 which can be found for ~$200. A $200 cart plus a phono stage and record player that is worthy of it is going to be a challenge for $500. There are some very good MM carts for under $100. The Ortophon 2m red, the AT120Eb or more affordable AT95e, Grado Green are carts I've heard around $100 that are pretty good. I haven't played with MM in a while so there may be better options.
The only reason to have a MM/MC is if you plan on going back and forth. A MM phono amp can't play a MC and a MC phono amp can't play a MM. There is nothing wrong with having both options on one device but if you never use MC, why pay for the option? Unless you want to go all in and increase your budget, I suggest focus on MM. There are step up devices that can convert the MC signal into something a MM amp can use.
You can't cheat an honest man, never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump -- W.C. Fields
Real tt don't have USB ports or built in phono amps, your tt really isn't the place to put thsee for any kind of serious vinyl spinning. Some maufacturers even go as far as removing the tables power supply and the motor from the deck.
Back in the day when the record was king your receiver/integrated/preamp came with at least a mm phono stage included. I'm vintage so most of my equipment is also and have built in phono stages.
That said, I recently gifted my AR XA tt to one of my sons and he needed a phono stage, his newer receiver doesn't have one. I purchased a relatively inexpensive one from Parts Express that works just fine, figured if he decided to get into vinyl more seriously he could buy a better one later. Your budget doesn't leave a lot of room for both items, I would invest most into the table and decide later if a more expensive phono amp is needed.
As for MM vs MC, if purchasing a used table this decision may be made for you by what's on the table. MC are by and large more expensive than MM, give a different presentation that only the listener can decide if more or less to their liking, or if worth the extra money.
Martin
Please define entry level. How much do you want to spend? Doesn't the Accuphase pre have a phono stage?
I would like to keep the whole thing under $500. I want to experience the "basics" before I work myself up. The Accuphase does have a a phono stage bay/slot but the price does not fall within my affordability factor. Thanks
Hi Jai,
Welcome to the Asylum!
VPI is a turntable manufacturer that makes an entry level turntable with a built-in phono stage and Ortofon cartridge. In other words, it's ready to go right out of the box. Check it out at the link below.
Thanks. Will surely take a look at it.
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