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In Reply to: RE: AFAIK copying an analog tape to digital is a transfer, not remastering. posted by Tre' on May 09, 2017 at 10:49:20
Even back in the days of vinyl, guys like Doug Sax (who opened the Master Lab in 1967, the first company dedicated to mastering) purposely made the record sound different than the master tape by use of compression, EQ, etc. The idea was to make the final product (at the time, the vinyl record) sound "better" than the master tape. I call that "sweetening".Thanks for clarifying.
Wow, that doesn't make any sense at all! So here we have a bunch of professionals, the acclaimed artists, musicians, sound engineers, producers, people who are world wide famous, working diligently on a new album, spending months in the studio pouring over the minutia, until finally one day they collectively produce a jewel in the crown of their art -- a master tape they all sign off on. They're all happy with how the final product sounds, and they can't wait to put it into the hands of their eager fans.
Then comes along some asshole with an inflamed ego and pooh-poohs all over that precious jewel, and starts compressing the shit out of it, messing with it, destroying it.
How do these idiots get away with murder? And to hear that they even get paid big bucks for destroying other people's work? Holy shit that's really terrible. If I was a famous artist, I would sue the living daylight out of these self-procaimed 'experts'.
Edits: 05/09/17 05/09/17 05/09/17 05/09/17Follow Ups:
First of all, not every recording/mixing engineer is highly accomplished. The same can be said for producers and artists when it comes to technical issues related to achieving desired sound.A guy I used to master one of my cd's (Alan Silverman at Arf Productions) is not normally hired as a recording engineer, and the engineer I used to record and mix (Gary Chester) is not normally hired as a mastering engineer. Actually, I'm unaware of either of 'em doing the other one's job. Guys like Sax/Grundman specialize in mastering, others specialize in recording (some also mixing), and still others specialize in mixing. This often explains why different engineers (often different studios too) are listed for each category - recording, mixing, mastering.
"Then comes along some asshole with an inflamed ego and pooh-poohs all over that precious jewel, and starts compressing the shit out of it, messing with it, destroying it."
No, that ain't how it works. No mastering engineer is gonna do anything contrary to the wishes of his/her employer unless he/she is inept. That employer may be a producer or an artist or an independent like me who is both. Blame producers or artists who control production for bad results - unless the mastering engineer is incompetent. Of course it can happen that a less than great mastering engineer is hired, the producer/artist is unhappy with the results but doesn't have the bucks to redo the mastering with a different engineer, and the result is that the final product satisfies neither the producer/artist nor the consumers like us. I think complaints we have about mastering like compression and the "loudness war" are more often due to conscious "business decisions" made by producers, not because the mastering engineer fucked up and didn't give them the sound they were looking for - especially for pop releases.
You are concentrating on NEGATIVE results. Sax/Grundman and other good mastering engineers are obviously not sought out due to fucking up the final mixes they receive. They are hired because the results of their mastering are excellent, and achieve the fine tuning ("sweetening", as Tre calls it) producers/artists desire.
I spent a lotta time mixing my cd's. But mixing is often so intense that subtle details relating to EQ'ing are missed, and/or the best equipment for that purpose is not available in the studio used for mixing. Additionally some excellent mastering engineers like Sax/Grundman have exceptional ears as well as exceptional knowledge/command regarding how to achieve fine tuning desired by producers/artists - more so than many recording/mixing engineers.
The final mixes I gave Alan Silverman to master were pretty good. I did not want much altered. But there were spots where (for example) I felt the trumpets were a tad harsher than they sound live, and I asked if Alan could something about that specific section. I also gave him a basic instruction for the whole cd which fortunately he understood -- make it sound a bit warmer, a bit less "digital". These are subtle EQ issues that good mastering engineers deal with all the time. The final mix given to mastering engineers often is not exactly what the producer/artist hoped for, and this can be addressed in mastering to some extent.
Obviously the end result varies according to the desires of the people employing the mastering engineer, equipment used and the ears/ability of the mastering engineer.
Edits: 05/09/17 05/09/17
Hmm, we seem to be talking past each other. Let me try to boil down what I'm getting at:One way or another, the production team (the musicians, engineers, producers, whathaveyou) finishes the work on the album. The deliverable of their effort is the so-called 'master tape'.
It don't matter for the purposes of this discussion how did the team get to the point of holding the final master tape in their hands. Maybe they did it all by themselves in one sitting, maybe it took them years of back-and-forth with some super duper fancy chief sweetener of master tapes, maybe it even took them decades of back-and-forth, shipping the tapes across the continent, then shipping them back until that precious moment when they all got satisfied (or ran out of money, or both).
Whatever the case may be, the entire charade occurs UPSTREAM from where our discussion begins. So once that magic tape is good and ready to go, it needs to be packaged for sale. Meaning, somehow the signal that is stored on the tape needs to be magically transported into the vinyl grooves. So the jist of this discussion is: how to do it?
Of course, you need to send it to some alchemy lab. Some mysterious alchemists will be cutting the lacquer while manipulating the EQ, twiddling some knobs. No one knows how are they doing it, but we do know that they specialize in making the grooves sound the same as the signal stored within the magnetic particles on the tape.
So the question is: why would, at that point, the owners of the product want the final deliverable (i.e. the vinyl record) to sound any different than the super precious master tape on which they've already spent untold hours and thousands of dollars? It absolutely doesn't make any sense that at this last, final stage, it would be all left to some bozo alchemists to do whatever they please with it. It would only make sense that the quality control at that stage be adamant that the resulting vinyl grooves produce the sound that is almost exact replica of the sound they hear when playing back the master tape.
So please, let's forget about sweetening and all the other bullshit that may or may not be happening upstream from the delivery of the master tape. I want to focus on how does the master tape, being the 'blueprint' for the vinyl record, transfer its signal into the vinyl grooves?
Edits: 05/09/17 05/09/17 05/09/17 05/09/17
Ya know I originally replied to something John Elison said, and it related to digital and mastering, not the mechanics and vagaries of vinyl lathes, cutting heads etc. which is something I'm not well versed in.As for non-vinyl cutting mastering you still don't seem to get it. You apparently think all the so-called "sweetening" occurs before mastering and is included in the final mix handed to a mastering engineer. Both Tre and I have explained that is not the case. You can either re-read my posts above or ignore them. I don't have anything further to add other than..... calling mastering engineers who make alterations to the EQ-ing etc. at the request of their employers "bozos" is lame.
Edits: 05/09/17 05/09/17 05/10/17
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
again, you're almost right."Then comes along some asshole with an inflamed ego and pooh-poohs all over that precious jewel, and starts compressing the shit out of it, messing with it, destroying it."
That asshole is hired by those "professionals, the acclaimed artists, musicians, sound engineers, producers, people who are world wide famous, working diligently on a new album, spending months in the studio pouring over the minutia, until finally one day they collectively produce a jewel in the crown of their art -- a master tape they all sign off on. They're all happy with how the final product sounds, and they can't wait to put it into the hands of their eager fans." to further sweeten it.
Take a look at the liner notes on your CDs. Most great albums were produced by great producers and recorded and mixed by great engineers and then handed off to a "mastering engineer" for final sweetening.
Those great producers and great engineers have confidence in great "mastering" engineers and are willing to pay big money to hire them to put the last bit of sweetening on the project.
They believe the final sweetening is an improvement so they would not sue the mastering engineer. They love the mastering engineer.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 05/09/17
:)
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
(Re)Mastering doesn't HAVE to involve the tweaking of anything. The "best" mastering can be NO mastering at all - it is up to the producer. However the production of a vinyl cut ALWAYS involves some sonic change to the master - mainly in the HF region. Towards the end of a side, the recorded wavelength decreases (the record spins at a constant ANGULAR velocity so the speed of the groove decreases) and the bandwidth necessarily drops off on the inner grooves. The bandwidth is deliberately limited especially with high amplitude signals in order to prevent the cutter "damaging"/overwriting previous cut signals. Also, higher frequencies require increasing power and when cutting a wide bandwidth signal, the cutter heads are easily damaged by excessive heat dissipation. Consequently, a cutting engineer will limit the HF extension in order to protect the heads. Also, lacquer properties can vary so a cutting engineer will adapt the EQ.
To be honest, when you consider how far removed the final vinyl product is from the master, it is somewhat unreasonable to expect it to sound identical to the master... EQ notwithstanding!
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
However the production of a vinyl cut ALWAYS involves some sonic change to the master - mainly in the HF regionJust to be sure I understand what you're saying -- production of a vinyl cut always involves some sonic change to the COPY of the master, not to the actual master tape, correct? The master tape is sacrosanct, it is what the entire team worked hard on until they agreed that it sounds perfect (or as close as perfect) to how they envision it should sound. No one should be messing with that tape.
I do realize that it is nearly impossible to replicate the sound of the master tape when cutting vinyl. However, that's the INTENTION of the crew cutting the vinyl. The final commercial product should sound as close as possible to how its authors prefer it to sound. Otherwise, if that were immaterial, why would the team ever even bother mastering it?
Edits: 05/09/17
Yes that's right. However, the vinyl is mastered in the sense that cutting is a live process and the cutting engineer will be adjusting EQ according to the target audience. For example dance 12" singles are one obvious example where the 12" is cut very deliberately to suit the club environment and also adapting to the playback equipment (i.e cartridge replay characteristics).
In this case, HF is pulled back and bass is boosted given the high amplitudes cut on the disc as well as the playback volume. These days, I'm convinced that given the way vinyl is marketed, that it is mastered to give a "vinyl" sound.... whatever that means to the average punter!
Regards Anthony
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats
"No one should be messing with that tape."
Correct and no one does.
But when that tape is used to cut a lacquer the signal going from the playback tape deck to the cutting head is altered to make up for the losses inherent in the cutting/pressing process but that doesn't alter what's on the master tape.
"I do realize that it is nearly impossible to replicate the sound of the master tape when cutting vinyl. However, that's the INTENTION of the crew cutting the vinyl. The final commercial product should sound as close as possible to how its authors prefer it to sound. "
In the old days the intention was to have the vinyl record sound as close to the master tape as possible but those days are long gone.
From the late 60s on, the intention is to have the final product (LP or CD) sound "better" than the master.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
From the late 60s on, the intention is to have the final product (LP or CD) sound "better" than the master.
So if that's correct, does that mean that LP or CD have certain properties, as the sound carrier medium, that the reel-to-reel tape lacks? Does that mean that tapes are incapable of storing the sound that would be as good as the sound one can find on an LP or a CD?
These things absolutely make no sense to me. If the aim is to make something sound "better", why not make it sound "better" upstream, on the very master tape?
"Better" is a matter of opinion.
It's not like the goal of a recording engineer or mastering engineer is to make it sound real.
They are going for "cool", not real.
R to R tape is great but the sound from the master tape is messed with (mastered) just like anything else. You will not get a direct copy from the major labels.
There was one company in New York, years ago, that made direct, un-mastered copies from the master tape of known albums. They were made them at normal speed. That is, they weren't high speed dups (like cassettes).
Those were very expensive to buy.
Now days we have The Tape Project.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
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