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In Reply to: RE: Comparing vinyl sound to hi-res digital remaster posted by magiccarpetride on May 07, 2017 at 17:16:55
> Makes sense. But if true, then we will never be able to compare the two formats.
If you want to find out the true capability of digital, I think you can do that by using a hi-res digital recorder to copy a vinyl record directly. I've been making digital copies of my vinyl LPs since 1991 and my hi-res digital recordings sound identical to the LPs. This indicates to me that digital can be very accurate and transparent. I'm now using a TASCAM DA-3000 digital recorder to make DSD 5.6-MHz copies of vinyl and they really sound good to me---so much so that I've decided to make all future recordings of vinyl in DSD 5.6-MHz.
Best regards,
John Elison
Follow Ups:
John, if you don't mind my asking, how do you refresh your flash drives? Do you read them back into your DSD recorder once every 3 years then rewrite the original to keep them fresh?
Also how do you catalog/store those drives for easy access?
Thanks.
I don't think I've ever refreshed a flash drive. I use them to store music for playback only in both my Oppo BDP-105D and TASCAM DA-3000. I keep all my digital music files on multiple large capacity USB hard drives. Therefore, if one goes bad I have at least two others with the same music. I catalog my music files in folders and put a stick-on paper label on the hard drive itself so I know generally what it contains. Other than that, I don't do any special cataloging. When I look at a hard drive in my computer, everything is in alphabetical order the same as any file folder in my computer.
Best regards,
John Elison
Big J
"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."
They sound identical to you, yet a seasoned audiophile with a good analog setup was able to pick the vinyl from your copy, blind, five out of six times, right?
If only it were so simple to replicate analog sound digitally.
I've heard some of John's recordings. They sound damn good. Is there a difference? I don't know but I do know I wouldn't want to live on the difference.
-Wendell
I bet they sound damn good. So do my vinyl recordings (most made by a Korg). It takes a trained ear to tell them from the direct source.
You're right and I'm glad you brought this up. I was challenged in 2006 to fly to Seattle and prove to Mike Lavigne that 16/44 Redbook digital could sound the same as vinyl. Mike had a stereo system that cost at least two or three hundred thousand dollars and he thought he could easily hear the difference between digital and analog. In fact, he was so confident he could hear the difference that he bet $250 he could identify the digital recording 100% of the time. He would have succeeded in winning the bet had we used his thirty thousand dollar Meitner CD player to conduct the test. However, I insisted on using my thousand dollar Audio Alchemy CD player and Mike failed his own challenge by missing one of the digital trials. Two others attempted the test but also failed.
Remember, we were using 16/44 Redbook digital and a thousand dollar Audio Alchemy CD player connected to a two or three hundred thousand dollar stereo system with Monster Cable interconnects. Mike's turntable was a 75 thousand dollar Rockport Sirius III with a $7000 van den Hul Colibri phono cartridge and a 30 thousand dollar darTZeel phono preamp. He had $8000 interconnects connecting his turntable to the darTZeel and he used thirty thousand dollar speaker cables. I have no doubt that the results would have more heavily favored digital had we used a hi-res DSD recorder instead of 16/44 Redbook. However, even using 16/44 Redbook, Mike was absolutely shocked that he missed even one trial out of six.
Thanks,
John Elison
You've generally got to drop $20K on interconnects to get six out of six.
I'm pretty sure all of Mike's interconnects incorporated zobel networks that altered frequency response. When we played my CD-R in Mike's Meitner CD player it sounded substantially different than the vinyl record. When I heard this, I immediately connected my own CD player using standard Monster Cable interconnects and one of the observers remarked, "Wow, that sure sounds a lot better." That's why I insisted on using my own CD player for the formal test and that's why Mike and two others failed the test even with lowly 16/44 Redbook digital.
Bruce Brown brought his TASCAM DSD recorder to the Challenge and after the formal test was finished he made some DSD recordings from Mike's Rockport Sirius III. Bruce's DSD recordings were essentially indistinguishable from vinyl. This is basically what I hear with my new TASCAM DA-3000 DSD recorder.
Best regards,
John Elison
BUT, JOHN, IN THE WORD "ESSENTIALLY" IS CAPTURED EVERYTHING!!!!
It really is. I myself could not tell the difference between my own DSD128 recordings and the vinyl initially. But once I learned the differences over long-term listening, I could. Reliably. And I figured this out when I began searching for the explanation for why the recordings were just never quite as fulfilling/had some fatigue that the analog source did not.
I find my digital recordings of vinyl just as fulfilling if not more so than listening to vinyl itself. My goal is listening to music -- not in listening to my audio components. My audio system is a tool for listening to music . It is not an end in and of itself. There is no audio system in existence that sounds exactly like live music; therefore, I don't bother deluding myself about small differences. However, I experience no listening fatigue with hi-res digital, and especially not with DSD.
To each his own!
I take your experience for what it's worth, but you might have missed my point. By no means was I LOOKING for a "reason" to declare the direct vinyl better - on the contrary, I'd already sold my whole setup by the time I realized that it was just not quite as *musical* - as natural, that is.
I've gotten used to digital and it sounds very musical to me, especially well recorded hi-res digital. Of course, I like both vinyl and digital, and I wouldn't want a system that didn't include both.
Best regards,
John Elison
"my hi-res digital recordings sound identical to the LPs"
John, you have said that many times over the years and I find it hard to believe.
I am not questioning the transparency of the digital itself.
I'm questioning the transparency of the analog circuits before the 'analog to digital' converter and the analog circuits after the 'digital to analog' converter.
Does your digital recorder have a "monitor input" function like a tape deck has?
If so, based on what you have said about the sound your recordings, you are saying that, if you place your digital recorder in a tape monitor loop with the recorder not recording but just in "monitor input", you hear no difference in the sound with the signal going through the digital recorder circuits vs. not going through the digital recorder circuits.
I would assume that the signal is passing through, at least, a active analog input stage (might just be a buffer stage) and a active analog output stage (might just be a buffer).
If there really is no difference in the sound then you have discovered something that has never been discovered before, truly transparent analog audio circuits.
I can't even change a single cap in my signal path without hearing a difference let alone adding multiple active stages to that signal path.
I know you know analog circuits sound different. Didn't you just build a tube preamp?
Doesn't it sound different than the preamp it replaced?
So just the mere fact that the signal from the LP has traveled through the analog portion of your digital recorder means that the sound HAS changed.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Couldn't agree more about your statement: "I can't even change a single cap in my signal path without hearing a difference let alone adding multiple active stages to that signal path". I totally agree, however you and I probably have systems that are more "transparent", by that I mean low parts count high quality tube systems, based on optimized simple triode gain stages. These type of systems are much more sensitive to changes in the signal path, and to me as such, are more revealing.
By fooling around over the years modifying amps, and bread boarding prototypes, when playing with modifying high quality tube amps, I've noticed much less of a change in something like a modified Dynaco ST-70 with it's more complicated circuitry, than a similar change to something like a good minimalist single ended amp.
I believe that all the debate about whether you can actually tell the difference in the sound of components like capacitors and resistors or whether it's just in your mind, has more to do with the transparency of your system more than anything else.
Keep in mind that IIRC John's preamp is tube based, but has 2 stages that are both cathode followers, and is using a conventional RIAA filter, rather than LCR RIAA correction. The preamp is feeding what I believe to be a high quality solid state amp of unknown to me complexity. Add to that the amp may or may not be using negative feedback. A fair and unbiased observation of change may be quite different when A/B'd through these quite different systems.
twystd
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I think if you buy a high-quality digital recorder and make some digital copies of your own LPs you will be able to answer your own questions much better than arguing with me about the situation.
Yes, digital recorders have monitor functions that allow you to hear the digital conversion in real time when making a recording. And, yes, I have done tape/source monitor testing when recording vinyl records. Any differences from the analog stages are so small that I don't hear them and most of my friends don't hear them, either. I have only had one audiophile friend over that could reliably detect the difference and he claimed it was a very small difference. This test was done with an Alesis Masterlink digital recorder using 24/96 digital. I think DSD 5.6-MHz is a different story, but you should buy a TASCAM DA-3000 DSD recorder and make your own test. These recorders cost only $1000 and you might be quite surprised at the results.
Best regards,
John Elison
John, I have no need to argue with you.
You just made my point for me.
You said "Any differences from the analog stages are SO SMALL that **I** don't hear them and MOST of my friends don't hear them, either. I have only had one audiophile friend over that COULD RELIABLY DETECT the difference and he claimed it was a very SMALL DIFFERENCE."
This reminds me of Julian Hirsch of Stereo Review.
For years he maintained that all amplifiers sounded the same. Then, late in his career he was a guest on Peter Sutheim's radio show "In Fidelity".
When Peter pressed him on the claim Julian said that if one listens carefully there are small differences.
He said it almost as if those differences shouldn't be of any concern to anyone.
But, of course, audiophiles live for those small differences and Julian should have known that all along. And you should know that.
Have a good day.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
The Tascam uses 70s vintage NE 5532 op amps in its output stage. Not bad sounding as the Delta sound card in my PC also uses them, but completely transparent?
I too, find it difficult to imagine they have no effect on the audible results. :)
And there has been for many years. A reliable workhorse, sure, but one can do better.
I have an Oppo 103 which also uses the venerable 5532 while the 105 uses the LM4562 for single ended output and LME49724 for balanced.
I'm sure the DA-3000 provides great value, but when you look inside you see other areas that exhibit cost control such as the power supply and coupling caps.
Most notably my now deceased, and sadly missed JVC-XL-Z1050TN CD player. It's been a long time, and I can't recall what op-amps I used in place of the 5532s, but I do remember the improvement.
Just about anything (unless it's already an all-out assault on "The state of the art") can be improved on, sometimes for surprisingly little cost.
Your point regarding the power supply is well taken. Improvements there have always gained me my most significant improvements, most notably, replacing a 7818 regulator inside my Graham Slee Reflex with a Belleson regulator.
I'm unsure if I have the nads to attempt removal of the tiny SOIC op amps in the Tascam. But the unit has a bipolar PS of 7812/7912 three pin regulators. I'll try Belleson regs in those positions.
My opinion is that the ADC in the Tascam unit is special, but that its DAC is just average. You need a better DSD DAC to "hear" these recordings.
The only potentially superior alternatives that I can find for recording to DSD are the Merging Technologies Hapi($5.5K) and the Playback Designs Pinot($10K+). The Tascam is a bargain. Anyone with a DSD DAC who is contemplating recording their vinyl should feel free to mail me an SD card that I will populate with sample tracks and return.
I don't blame you. I wouldn't mess with those either. Even many expert solderers don't like to fool with surface mount devices.
As for the Belleson regulators, I don't think you'll be sorry. As I recently posted on Tweakers, it made a greater improvement than any wire (interconnect, speaker, power cord etc.) change I've ever tried.
.
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Well, I disagree with you 100%. Small differences are of no concern to me. Of course, I don't even hear a small difference between a vinyl record played on my Sota Millennia turntable and a DSD copy of the record. Furthermore, I think that if you bought a TASCAM DA-3000 and made your own DSD recording on your own system, you would understand exactly what I'm talking about.
For me, it's the music that matters -- not small differences -- especially when I don't even hear them.
Good luck,
John Elison
nt
Small audible differences don't matter to me. In fact, I did not audition any component I now have in my audio system before buying it except for my Thiel speakers. It just so happened that the Thiel factor used to be about 10-miles from where I live and my son made friends with Kathy Gornik and her daughter Dawn. As a result, I was invited to a factory tour and I ended up buying a pair of Thiel CS3.7 speakers directly from the factory. All my other components were mail-ordered without ever hearing them first.
Best regards,
John Elison
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