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In Reply to: RE: The AR is a surprisingly competitive turntable posted by Russm535il@aol.com on May 07, 2017 at 12:41:54
Well, thats one way to go. I have an AR XA that was my main deck for two decades, even beating out my Thorens. A couple of yrs ago I had the opportunity to pick up a DD table for cheap, being a belt guy I wasn't expecting much. I remembered the Corian Kenwood tables from the 70's as being solid performers so figured if I didn't like it I could always sell it to recoup my investment, maybe even make a profit.Well I snagged a Kenwood KD500 / Grace G707 combination for a real bargain as I mentioned. Mounted the Grado Platinum cartridge off my AR and my jaw dropped, this was not the sound I remembered from the cheap DD I had in the 80's. The improvement over the AR was not subtle. Now one could think it was just cartridge synergy with the Grace arm over the AR, I'm here to say the AR actually gained more from the wood bodied Grado than the Kenny did. It's just that the Kenwood was starting from a more refined base.
Don't get me wrong, the AR XA is a top notch table with tons of room for improvement. But the cost of the improvements just to attain the big Kenny's stock performance could run you as much as the KD500 on the used market, and to match my KD500 now? $$$$$$$$$$$$
Now, if looking to go a step further, if patient I've seen Kenwood KD770D go for about the same money you could sell the AR for. If not familiar with the KD770D then I can attest it would take some serious green to compete if purchasing a new table. Not to mention it's just so damn good looking.
It wasn't Kenwood's TOTL offering in its day as the KD500 was but it is a better table out of the box, I know I have both. That said, with the right cartridge on the Grace arm, and some subtle acoustic dampening techniques the 500 can attain serious vinyl playback status.
Martin
Edit: My AR now sports a different arm bringing it up a few notches but still can't compete with the big Kennys, the AR has since been gifted to one of my sons.
Edits: 05/07/17 05/07/17Follow Ups:
I have a similar but opposite story than you. Years ago I had a Denon DP-37 DD turntable that I was happy with. Locally there was a AR turntable that came up for sale. I had never owned a belt drive turntable and the price was right so I bought it. I had two of the same Shure carts. and had them mounted on both turntables.
The difference in sound was not subtle, the AR beat the pants out of the Denon. I could hear ea. instrument individually, soundstage was really realistic, and the music just sounded right. The Denon however sounded mechanical and lifeless in comparison.....
But there's the rub, often using the same cartridge hobbles one table or the other. My Thorens beats all my other tables with the Pickering carts, the Kenwoods are complete failures with the Pickerings, so comparing any of the tables with the same Pickering can be misleading.
Of all my cartridges the AR soared with the Grado Platinum, but the Kenny still beat it, and yes with the same cartridge. But, the Kenny lost out to its newer cousin the KD770D until I installed the Grace cartridge, the Grado was actually holding it back. The KD770D being what it is wasn't really happy with any of my cartridges, it was meant for more modern cartridges with realistic compliance, allowing a much greater selection of cartridges. And the KD770D is worthy of the best you can afford.
Martin
Out of curiosity, what kind of music do you prefer?
If asking me then it's all over the board, blues, jazz, rock & roll, big band, some country, but not rap.DD vs belt is definitely not a ones better at this genre than the other, that's not what this thread is about. If moneys no object I'm getting a top tier mega $$$$$$$ belt drive, but the AR XA no matter how much money you throw at it it won't be in that mega $$$$$$$ tables league.
Again, not knocking the little AR that could, it was my main deck for decades. If that was to be my last table I would still be in vinyl heaven, it's that great. But the big Kennys are just better tables.
Martin
Edits: 05/08/17
The AR ES1 is superior to the Kenwood's with controlling vibrations , your system maybe bass limited to not notice the difference, the Kenwoods are superior to the Technics in this area of bass and vibration control, but not so vs suspended tables , like the AR/LP12 ...
Regards
Edits: 05/08/17
You're right, just a bit bass shy below 25hz with only two 12" subs, thankfully this allows me to turn the volume knob past the 3:00 point without any issues.And you're right, the AR's cast aluminum three point suspended chassis is very capable of handling airborne vibration, even superior to my Thorens and the reason it was my main deck for so many yrs. Very susceptible to ground vibration like footsteps on suspended wood floors and why wall shelves are so affective. If concrete floors it's a non issue, and as I live in Fl I have concrete floors.
But even with all of that the Kenwood KD500 is still the better table. And if you like bass I have a thread showing just how easy it is to make the Kenny superior even to acoustic feedback issues.
But that's not the point, my recommendation was the KD770D, it needs nothing to beat the AR in every category, even in the only area the AR had a slight advantage over the older Kenny.
Martin
Edits: 05/08/17
Kingshead , I have 3 Kenwood tables , a 500 and two 650's , they are great DD tables , I'm a fan , but its not as open and shut as you say , so i cannot agree there regarding an ES-1 and or an LP12 , where I find their dynamics superior ..
Obviously YMMV from system to system .... Phone stage, pre -amp , cables , speaker resolution, system resolution and jump, Arm type amd setup , cartridges , playback level , all conspire to make one look foolish .. :)Anyway I'm going to try a 707 on one of the 650's and see , comparing tables is not as straight forward as most make it , takes exhaustive testing and lengthy setups to get them right, what i love about the LP-12 and the AR is i can plunk them down anywhere and jam with very little resonance issues ..
More Music less dicking around ...
Regards
Edits: 05/09/17
My 500 has absolutely no acoustic issues "anymore" lol. As I said, my recommendation was the KD770D and it has absolutely no feedback issues right out of the box. If you have no experience with this table then you should check it out, it's really the shit.Martin
As for the LP12, I made no mention of as I have no experience with it. Why you would throw that out there brings anything you have to say into question.
"what i love about the LP-12 and the AR is i can plunk them down anywhere and jam with very little resonance issues .."
This is true as long as you bring along your Ronco Pocket Wall Shelf. What I like about the "Rock" is its easy to permanently correct the acoustic feedback issue making "it" truly a plunk it down anywhere and boogie table. Something the KD770D already is and again why I recommended it, not the 500. So go ahead and purchase a KD770D then get back with me on my recommendation.
"Much better music with way less dicking around".
Edits: 05/09/17 05/09/17 05/09/17 05/09/17 05/09/17 05/09/17
I guess you are not aware the LP-12 is AR based and is similarly sprung, it was brought in as it's vintage and sprung vs solid DD table you are mentioning , so does this bring everything you say into question?BTW, being more specific, the OP actually requested to know about vintage AR vs Modern TT, nothing about a 40 yr old DD kenwood table, does mentioning the DD Kenwood bring everything you say into question ..?
Err,
Just saying ....
Edits: 05/09/17
Actually I'm very aware of the Linn deck, but the OP was inquiring about the AR XA specifically, and it was the only table I referenced my alternatives against.Now if you're suggesting the Linn as a viable option for the OP I would agree as any arm that would be on the table would be better than the stock AR. But the cost would be prohibitive, bringing the AR up to the Sondek tables level might make more sense.
Yes the OP was asking about new decks as an alternative, but the OP was informed he might be better off building his deck up to a higher standard. Knowing this could run the OP considerable coin I decided to offer up an alternative course of action.
And my reasons for recommending the KD770D?, Well it's all in my earlier posts but let me reiterate. The AR has become the darling of the analogue world and as such even basket cases bring pretty good money. As the OP has a daily driver it would as mentioned by another member bring at least 3-400$.
Now the OP could purchase a $500 arm, have a new plinth built, etc etc, and $1500 plus his table later have a great deck. Or the OP could continue enjoying his table while patiently waiting for the right table to come along in his price range, purchase the table, then sell the AR to cover the new deck.
I recommended the KD770D because I've recently had the opportunity to purchase another that the sale of the AR would easily cover, and I have personal knowledge of the Kenny and the OP's table. With this I know the Kenny is the far superior deck, so for realistically no money out of the OP's pocket he can take a huge step up on the analogue ladder.
Now isn't that the intent here, to help the OP? But if the OP has money burning a hole in his pocket he wants to spend and it's a new deck he must have then let's have a budget and have at it.
Martin
Edits: 05/09/17
Vintage vs modern becomes pretty interesting and informative. I as the OP, have some interest in these modern " affordable" tables , as I will always go for the new Audi TT over any other " TT" at similar price point ..
:)
I was very happy with the sound of the AR I had , it came with a factory arm that held a top of line shure. I liked the cartridge, a good choice for record care and sound, plus I liked the price, being mass marketed at the time , so built around that cart.
I was running a Kenwood kd550 , but the Shure picked up motor hum as it tracked towards the label, so I got a belt drive, the AR. I got a much better soundstage with the AR
AFter I started taking a more active interest in my audio buying decisions, I decided to upgrade the arm, keeping the cart.
I wound up with a Mitchell arm and giro deck, and feel the arm was a very important part of the sonic upgrade. Still running a shure , with japanese tips.
All the best with your buying decisions. I have left the turntable market for good. If I ever out grow the Mitchell performance, I will be shocked.
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