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I acquired a vintage ARXA turntable in 1971 it has a Black Pearl cartridge mounted by Jerry raskins needledoc However with all the new turntables coming out I thought I could sell the AR on Ebay and buy something better Please any suggestions as to what to consider
One ? also I get a hum from the AR I have grounded it on several places but still get a slight hum ??
My total system is comprised of : Rogue Cronus Magnum 2 Golden Ear Triton plus 2's NAD cd player Musical Fidelity V90 DAC THANK YOU !! Russ DeJulio Pittsburgh PA
Follow Ups:
If the big Kenny was of interest I see a KD500 with a Grace G707 arm currently on eBay with shipping around $350, the arm alone is worth the asking price.
Martin
At that price why sell the AR, no law against having more than one table, I have 5 lol.
Thank you I believe that after all the positive comments about my old AR I am going to stick with it
BTW I "purchased" my ARXA in college in 1972 -the cost was a case of beer _ I do not recall the brand but it looks like I got a good deal !!
Thank you again all for your help and advice !!
Russ
Hard to say , if an under 1K table will be better than an AR -XA , i do believe they have better arms than a standard XA, but its really hard to predict without comparing , too many variables and the major one is your actual system resolution level ...
Regards
Agree ! Thanks !
Pictures of my AR with new arm and NOS Pickering XV15 1200E/D1200 installed before gifting it to my son. My Grado Platinum was now on my Grace arm also pictured with the "Rock".As you can see the AR looks fantastic with its new arm, and really sounds great too. But even with that it just couldn't compete with the completely stock Kenny, and it looks in another league too. Sure the AR can be upgraded ad nauseum but that's true of both decks. A better maybe more fair comparison would be with the KD550, it came with a stock arm supplied by Kenwood. Although I've heard it was no slouch so maybe still.......
But that's not the point. My point is, the KD500 with the right arm would be a big step up for about the same money and they usually come with a botique arm.
The problem is many of these great arms were designed with high compliance cartridges in mind, not as prevalent these days. That's why my suggestion of the KD770D, right out of the box it's a table that the AR would need mucho $$$$$ thrown at it to attempt to compete.
I purchased my KD770D last yr for less than the value of the Denon DL301 cartridge included. Many will be listed for much more, and it's worth every penny, but with a bit of patience and some haggling you should be able to score one for under 4 Benjamins.
Good luck and enjoy what ever your decision.
Martin
Edit: What do you know, always following certain items on eBay I see a new listing for a KD500/Grace G707 combo, very popular arm on this table. Great table, really like mine, maybe more than the KD770D with the mods I've made to the 500, but stock the 770 is so much better at handling acoustic feedback like a sprung table does.
Edits: 05/07/17 05/07/17 05/07/17
Thank you the tables look b eautiful !!
I have lightly tweaked it, and equipped it with a Shure V15Vx/Jico SAS. Otherwise it is original. It tracks flawlessly at 1.4 grams, brush down.
My SAS is aging and I like the AR enough to consider the ruby cantilever version.
I have looked into new tables in the $1000-$1500 range -- about the limit of my WAF for a turntable -- and have not found any that I am confident would improve the quality of the music I hear.
If you have grounded the wiring in several places you might have created a ground loop.
If you are not familiar with vinylnirvana.com, you should be.
Good for you, I am a former owner. Great table.
What puzzles me is why you leave the brush down. With it down, I hear the music playing via the brush, physically as well as pre-echo. Besides, you're just pushing the dirt around and around.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
I prefer the way the music sounds when the brush is down.
Thank you Sim !
You can go quite far with an AR-XA. You also have one of the classic 'tables of all time. I've had two of them (daughter now has one of these) that I cleaned up and restored. There are gurus such as Steve Frosten who can upgrade, update, re-do, or whatever you want with these. Steve did the finishing touches on my two (re-wiring, etc.) and I was pleased enough with the results that I asked him to build me a custom AR table from the ground up. He did a fantastic job, and that one is now one of my main tables I use. Do the cosmetic stuff yourself, such as cleaning up or refinishing the wooden base and metal plinth, and then spend a couple hundred bucks letting the pros (someone like Steve) finish the job. You'll have a 'table for the ages!
aa
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
Could be the most economical way to good sound would be a tonearm upgrade. A Grace 707 is practically a drop-in. With a high-compliance Shure or AT cartridge, you'd be getting sound that you would have to pay a lot of money to better. I am sure there are other arm that would fit, but I don't know them.
Dave
Dave, would the drop-in mostly involve cutting away the metal bearing housing for the original tonearm pivot and placing the Grace into that hole?? Of course, the hole in the metal plinth would have to be enlarged as well. Thanks, Bill.
I modified my AR XA to accept a Grace 707. It required cutting off the spindle well and adding length to that part of the subframe. The mounting distance is farther (222 mm) than the original AR arm. The whole in the top plate has to be enlarged as well. I put in an upgraded motor and springs. It rivals my LP12 with the same arm.
nt
Pictures please.
Martin
Here it is from several years ago:
Very schveet, the AR was always deserving of a great arm.
Martin
Russ,
I'll agree with the first two posters that the AR will be hard to beat in its value range. I owned a couple of them many years ago and recently restored one for friends to sell. Once the restoration was complete I was delighted by the familiar musical qualities it produced.
Your comments read like the Black Pearl dates back to 1971 unless there was a typo. If true a new cartridge might give everything you are looking for.
Regarding the hum, the wiring from the arm itself to a junction inside the chassis can be fragile. Check that to insure no unwanted contact is being made.
A few words about restoration, given the age. Have you cleaned the bearing wells for both the platter and arm? Also inspect the bearing disc at the bottom of each for wear. There is an AR turntable site which may stock replacements. Then apply fresh machine oil. Lastly, many ARs came with a damping pin in the mount for the arm. AR admitted it usually performed better with that removed and even supplied instructions to do so. Check your and remove it if present.
For appearance, Howard Restore-a-finish walnut can make the plinth look like new if not dented or heavily scratched.
Have fun and enjoy.
"The piano ain't got no wrong notes." Thelonious Monk
I agree that this is an excellent deck and you have a nice system. I think of this as input, throughput and output question. Working backwards it seems your output is excellent through some fine speakers as is your throughput, so I think the weak spot is your cartridge and that's where I would upgrade before changing decks. What you hear will ultimately be determined by what your cartridge picks up from the disk. I'm not an expert so others may differ in my thinking on this.
Sim
Even if you could get $300-400 for your AR, that is nowhere near enough to buy a modern turntable with comparable performance. You'd need at least $1500 to get something significantly better, even in the late-model used market.
A new table to equal or exceed the performance of the OP's vintage AR, you might want to budget north of $1k. Having the AR sent to the doctor (as suggested in one follow-up post) might run a few hundred and be a great deal. That's IF you were OK living with a 20+ year-old TT; vintage gear ain't for everybody.
Also, that deal applies only if you LIKE the sound of the AR. They seeme a little too lively, perhaps some euphonic colorations creep in. I recall it as nice, not nasty, and fine if you like that sort of stuff as many vinylistas do.
I am however a lifelong, dedicated DD Bear, and feel as Kingshead does that a modest, well-chosen vintage DD could outperform the vintage AR. That's how I voted with my hard-earned dough.
Again, that's IF you were OK living with a different 20+ year-old TT; vintage gear and DD ain't for everybody. Vintage gear's relative reliability and lack of repair parts are why I keep a spare turntable (Sony DD) in the cellar.
I did just pick up a Sony PS-X50 semiauto from the Golden Age, which sounds absolutely beautiful for under $200. I'm praying to Akio Morita's ghost it lasts forever. I'm at point now where I can actually disassemble/assemble one of these and it works afterward.
My AR suits me playing classical music, traditional pop and jazz -- mostly of the small scale variety.
I would expect a DD table would be better suited to, say, rock.
Thank you !!
Thanks all Very helpful advice and I greatly appreciate it !
Russ
Thank you guys !!
That is GREAT news I will keep old Reliable Spinning !!
Russ
Well, thats one way to go. I have an AR XA that was my main deck for two decades, even beating out my Thorens. A couple of yrs ago I had the opportunity to pick up a DD table for cheap, being a belt guy I wasn't expecting much. I remembered the Corian Kenwood tables from the 70's as being solid performers so figured if I didn't like it I could always sell it to recoup my investment, maybe even make a profit.Well I snagged a Kenwood KD500 / Grace G707 combination for a real bargain as I mentioned. Mounted the Grado Platinum cartridge off my AR and my jaw dropped, this was not the sound I remembered from the cheap DD I had in the 80's. The improvement over the AR was not subtle. Now one could think it was just cartridge synergy with the Grace arm over the AR, I'm here to say the AR actually gained more from the wood bodied Grado than the Kenny did. It's just that the Kenwood was starting from a more refined base.
Don't get me wrong, the AR XA is a top notch table with tons of room for improvement. But the cost of the improvements just to attain the big Kenny's stock performance could run you as much as the KD500 on the used market, and to match my KD500 now? $$$$$$$$$$$$
Now, if looking to go a step further, if patient I've seen Kenwood KD770D go for about the same money you could sell the AR for. If not familiar with the KD770D then I can attest it would take some serious green to compete if purchasing a new table. Not to mention it's just so damn good looking.
It wasn't Kenwood's TOTL offering in its day as the KD500 was but it is a better table out of the box, I know I have both. That said, with the right cartridge on the Grace arm, and some subtle acoustic dampening techniques the 500 can attain serious vinyl playback status.
Martin
Edit: My AR now sports a different arm bringing it up a few notches but still can't compete with the big Kennys, the AR has since been gifted to one of my sons.
Edits: 05/07/17 05/07/17
I have a similar but opposite story than you. Years ago I had a Denon DP-37 DD turntable that I was happy with. Locally there was a AR turntable that came up for sale. I had never owned a belt drive turntable and the price was right so I bought it. I had two of the same Shure carts. and had them mounted on both turntables.
The difference in sound was not subtle, the AR beat the pants out of the Denon. I could hear ea. instrument individually, soundstage was really realistic, and the music just sounded right. The Denon however sounded mechanical and lifeless in comparison.....
But there's the rub, often using the same cartridge hobbles one table or the other. My Thorens beats all my other tables with the Pickering carts, the Kenwoods are complete failures with the Pickerings, so comparing any of the tables with the same Pickering can be misleading.
Of all my cartridges the AR soared with the Grado Platinum, but the Kenny still beat it, and yes with the same cartridge. But, the Kenny lost out to its newer cousin the KD770D until I installed the Grace cartridge, the Grado was actually holding it back. The KD770D being what it is wasn't really happy with any of my cartridges, it was meant for more modern cartridges with realistic compliance, allowing a much greater selection of cartridges. And the KD770D is worthy of the best you can afford.
Martin
Out of curiosity, what kind of music do you prefer?
If asking me then it's all over the board, blues, jazz, rock & roll, big band, some country, but not rap.DD vs belt is definitely not a ones better at this genre than the other, that's not what this thread is about. If moneys no object I'm getting a top tier mega $$$$$$$ belt drive, but the AR XA no matter how much money you throw at it it won't be in that mega $$$$$$$ tables league.
Again, not knocking the little AR that could, it was my main deck for decades. If that was to be my last table I would still be in vinyl heaven, it's that great. But the big Kennys are just better tables.
Martin
Edits: 05/08/17
The AR ES1 is superior to the Kenwood's with controlling vibrations , your system maybe bass limited to not notice the difference, the Kenwoods are superior to the Technics in this area of bass and vibration control, but not so vs suspended tables , like the AR/LP12 ...
Regards
Edits: 05/08/17
You're right, just a bit bass shy below 25hz with only two 12" subs, thankfully this allows me to turn the volume knob past the 3:00 point without any issues.And you're right, the AR's cast aluminum three point suspended chassis is very capable of handling airborne vibration, even superior to my Thorens and the reason it was my main deck for so many yrs. Very susceptible to ground vibration like footsteps on suspended wood floors and why wall shelves are so affective. If concrete floors it's a non issue, and as I live in Fl I have concrete floors.
But even with all of that the Kenwood KD500 is still the better table. And if you like bass I have a thread showing just how easy it is to make the Kenny superior even to acoustic feedback issues.
But that's not the point, my recommendation was the KD770D, it needs nothing to beat the AR in every category, even in the only area the AR had a slight advantage over the older Kenny.
Martin
Edits: 05/08/17
Kingshead , I have 3 Kenwood tables , a 500 and two 650's , they are great DD tables , I'm a fan , but its not as open and shut as you say , so i cannot agree there regarding an ES-1 and or an LP12 , where I find their dynamics superior ..
Obviously YMMV from system to system .... Phone stage, pre -amp , cables , speaker resolution, system resolution and jump, Arm type amd setup , cartridges , playback level , all conspire to make one look foolish .. :)Anyway I'm going to try a 707 on one of the 650's and see , comparing tables is not as straight forward as most make it , takes exhaustive testing and lengthy setups to get them right, what i love about the LP-12 and the AR is i can plunk them down anywhere and jam with very little resonance issues ..
More Music less dicking around ...
Regards
Edits: 05/09/17
My 500 has absolutely no acoustic issues "anymore" lol. As I said, my recommendation was the KD770D and it has absolutely no feedback issues right out of the box. If you have no experience with this table then you should check it out, it's really the shit.Martin
As for the LP12, I made no mention of as I have no experience with it. Why you would throw that out there brings anything you have to say into question.
"what i love about the LP-12 and the AR is i can plunk them down anywhere and jam with very little resonance issues .."
This is true as long as you bring along your Ronco Pocket Wall Shelf. What I like about the "Rock" is its easy to permanently correct the acoustic feedback issue making "it" truly a plunk it down anywhere and boogie table. Something the KD770D already is and again why I recommended it, not the 500. So go ahead and purchase a KD770D then get back with me on my recommendation.
"Much better music with way less dicking around".
Edits: 05/09/17 05/09/17 05/09/17 05/09/17 05/09/17 05/09/17
I guess you are not aware the LP-12 is AR based and is similarly sprung, it was brought in as it's vintage and sprung vs solid DD table you are mentioning , so does this bring everything you say into question?BTW, being more specific, the OP actually requested to know about vintage AR vs Modern TT, nothing about a 40 yr old DD kenwood table, does mentioning the DD Kenwood bring everything you say into question ..?
Err,
Just saying ....
Edits: 05/09/17
Actually I'm very aware of the Linn deck, but the OP was inquiring about the AR XA specifically, and it was the only table I referenced my alternatives against.Now if you're suggesting the Linn as a viable option for the OP I would agree as any arm that would be on the table would be better than the stock AR. But the cost would be prohibitive, bringing the AR up to the Sondek tables level might make more sense.
Yes the OP was asking about new decks as an alternative, but the OP was informed he might be better off building his deck up to a higher standard. Knowing this could run the OP considerable coin I decided to offer up an alternative course of action.
And my reasons for recommending the KD770D?, Well it's all in my earlier posts but let me reiterate. The AR has become the darling of the analogue world and as such even basket cases bring pretty good money. As the OP has a daily driver it would as mentioned by another member bring at least 3-400$.
Now the OP could purchase a $500 arm, have a new plinth built, etc etc, and $1500 plus his table later have a great deck. Or the OP could continue enjoying his table while patiently waiting for the right table to come along in his price range, purchase the table, then sell the AR to cover the new deck.
I recommended the KD770D because I've recently had the opportunity to purchase another that the sale of the AR would easily cover, and I have personal knowledge of the Kenny and the OP's table. With this I know the Kenny is the far superior deck, so for realistically no money out of the OP's pocket he can take a huge step up on the analogue ladder.
Now isn't that the intent here, to help the OP? But if the OP has money burning a hole in his pocket he wants to spend and it's a new deck he must have then let's have a budget and have at it.
Martin
Edits: 05/09/17
Vintage vs modern becomes pretty interesting and informative. I as the OP, have some interest in these modern " affordable" tables , as I will always go for the new Audi TT over any other " TT" at similar price point ..
:)
I was very happy with the sound of the AR I had , it came with a factory arm that held a top of line shure. I liked the cartridge, a good choice for record care and sound, plus I liked the price, being mass marketed at the time , so built around that cart.
I was running a Kenwood kd550 , but the Shure picked up motor hum as it tracked towards the label, so I got a belt drive, the AR. I got a much better soundstage with the AR
AFter I started taking a more active interest in my audio buying decisions, I decided to upgrade the arm, keeping the cart.
I wound up with a Mitchell arm and giro deck, and feel the arm was a very important part of the sonic upgrade. Still running a shure , with japanese tips.
All the best with your buying decisions. I have left the turntable market for good. If I ever out grow the Mitchell performance, I will be shocked.
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