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I know there are those that are on all sides on this one,but I thought I would ask.Recently I read an article or review where it was said that Silver Wire gets it's brightness trait from being to thick. If I find the read I will post it,but It got me thinking so I thought I would ask.
1.What gives Silver the triat of Brightness?
2.Will burn in diminish the Brightness efect?I am trying several gauges 20AWG and 26AWG at the moment. I might try thicker gauges.
Another question is:
1.What are the advantages to using litz in Silver Cables?
2.Is it just a way to minimise the effect of EMI\RFI from a system or is there another advantage?Skin effect must play into this also.
I had thought it was in a review of Silver Audio Hyacinth Audio Interconnects .but I might be mistaken.
Follow Ups:
I just finished making a bi-wired set of pure dead soft silver and they are not bright at all. I'm using 14 gauge for the mid/bass and 16 gauge for the ribbons.Have a great day,
Brad
difference? And if you did, what?thanks,
ja in clear and way too hot but not as hot a Phoenix, Tucson, AZ
Hi John,Yes, I did notice a very nice difference.
What I heard, was a much more defined soundstage. Transient responses have improved, as well as imaging. That was right off the bat, with no break-in.
Have a great day,
Brad
I have not heard any formula's for breaking these Homemade Silver cables in. Was wondering if there was any Ideas on that.
I have never felt a need for a breakin. I just do not notice much of a change with good pure silver that is dead soft. Also, pure silver by its nature will be soft, relative speaking. If there is a break-in, it is very short. It is the alloyed metals that require the breakin, in my experience.I also use Cardas Quad Eutectic for all the signal path soldering and wonder solder for everything else.
ja in clear, humid and hot, Tucson, AZ
I have tried different ga silver interconnect, phono cable, silver foil speaker cable, silver stepup, silver TVC. I always use my tuner as signal source to cook it. Leave it on overnight. that it. If it fit your system, it sounds good right a way, if it is bright, no matter what, it will remain bright sounding.
Some silver wires seem bright. However, the Kimber ones are not at all. Metallurgy??
One more time ! Silver wire for audio should be the highest purity wire you can afford. The 99.99% pure silver is best, but expensive, altho sonically worth it. A lot of the silver wire being sold for audio is "Jeweler's Silver", which is alloyed with nickel to make it shiny. Nickel causes hysterisis i.e. non-linearities among frequencies and is BAD NEWS. Pure silver has a dull luster and can't be highly polished. It is also noticeably softer and more pliable than Jeweler's Silver which is somewhat brittle or stiff, a dead giveaway that the silver is an alloy rather than pure silver. The wire should be insulated with teflon sleeving or wrapped with teflon tape.Happy Listening !
solid core as DIY digital cable, interconnect and PC's with excellent results - not a hint of brightness, just clean, fast, precise, natural. The Cardas wire comes uninsulated. I stuff it into 18 ga. teflon tube. The wire is soft and there's a limit to how long you can make cables, but at <$2 / foot (wire + tubing), a real bargain. Wire and teflon tubes are available from Michael Percy and DIY Cable.IMO, high purity silver is revealing. I don't think the wire has a tone, just reveals what's there a little more clearly.
I agree!I hear alot more in the topend and clearity of vocals. Better Decay of metallic instruments is present.
I do need to try other designs though.
I bought mine throuh a Jewlers site in NYC. I noticed that it really needs to be cleaned to get better performance. Could not believe the grundge that comes off the stuff and how it shines afterwards.
There are a few different sources I will be trying in order to see which is the best.
Read previous post from pkell44 re: jeweler's silver. I have no experience with it. Have found that the Cardas has dull finish - have not tried polishing tho'
It is not that it is dull,but even after being spun and through a die it will pickup deposits.What he is talking about is Sterling and Alloy silver which is stiff and brittle.
You have to be specific with the vendor to what you want or else you can end up with less than 4-9's Silver.
NS
it should be in good shape when you purchase it new. I only buy from two suppliers that I know are selling me good fine silver. I do not know where the idea came from that silver will not take a shine. It will tarnish of course and this is the reason for ' silver polish'.The silver I use when in open ended tubing retains its shine and does not tarnish. But even pure silver tanrish is still a good conductor.
ja in clear and too hot, Tucson, AZ
I really do not see why you would insist that it must be Teflon Coated! Air is said to be the best Dialectric and I am trying to get away from Teflon.The reason why I asked the question is due to another stating that using Thick SIlver was the reason for Brightness.
And yes it is wise to get Dead Soft 99.99% Pure Silver which I was conscience of when I orderd mine. The thickness and Braiding are the main questions I asked I think.
Thanks for the reply!
for my audio applications and in jewelry and I have never found that "pure" silver could not be polished and take fine polish and "shine". On the other points I agree. I first got into trying silver by going through sterling silver and then on to the high purity silver, yes there is a big difference with the former not at all usable in audio uses, as far as I am concerned. The high purity silver is not at all hard to find with most silver actually being 99.999 but because of a safety margin is advertised as 99.9 or 99.99.ja in hot and humid Tucson, AZ
have found that the most improtant factor is dead soft silver. I use 32 guage for my dac and transport and flat 18 wide by 30 guage thick. I used to sell these many years ago and I got great response in comparing them to anything but I have moved on from that. I have everything in my system wired with silver and if it was not wired with silver originally it is now. The only thing the signal does not travel through in silver is on the dac board and that is a very short distance.Dead soft and thin. Teflon tubing and the wire in a braided single wire/teflon configuration.
ja in slightly breezy, hot and humid, Tucson, AZ
After having 47Labs OTA in my system which is 26AWG Copper I thought I would try an approx. gauged Silver and it works nicely between the Amp tp Passive. Between the DAC and Passive I dod not like the sound over the OTA. Speakre wires I am trying 24AWG which is being run to the Topend with Tara Labs TFA Copper on the bottom. I imagine it is as good as DH Labs stuff or better.I did not have luck with Cardas SLVR RCAs,but will be trying a few others to see what effect it might have. I still have a set of the SLVRs!
I thought Daytons WBT Knockoffs are really great in order to cut corners for RCAs/ I will try Homegrowns to see if they are better and being SIlver Plated they should be.
As I stated the reason for asking the questions was due to the insistance that thicker Silver seems to be the reason for brightness.
Also I am trying to get away from Teflon and go with an Air diaelectric. I tried TechFlex in order to insulate using uninsulated Silver. Works fine!
Thanks for the reply!
tubing for the insulator. Because the wire is flat and much smaller than the tubing there is very little contact. I would guess that there is more than 90% air dialetric. I have not found that the thicker pure silver wire is bright. What I find is that the higher frequencies may be a little rolled off. I think that 28 to 32 guage is a good way to go for the signals and 22 down to 18 for the speakers. I also use the 28 by 18 guage flat for my speakers but in a 4 braid and for the woofer there is an additional 4 by 24 guage flat pure silver wire. I biwire.ja in still hot, still humid, Tucson, AZ
"I also use the 28 by 18 guage flat for my speakers but in a 4 braid and for the woofer there is an additional 4 by 24 guage flat pure silver wire."
John,
Can you clarify this some more ?
Initially you were using the gauge to specify the width of the wire. But after a while it is getting confusing.
Explicity specify the width in guages, thickness in guages and the number of wires in the braid.
Also, can you tell us where we can find these 'dead soft pure' silver wires ?
I use 30 guage thick by 18 guage wide - flat wire. I use either a three braid for the IC or a 4 braid for the speakers with a 4 braid return, separate four braid wires that are each braided for each speaker (tweeter/midrange). Then I use a 4 braid -same as above - with a 8guage by 24 guage thick extra wire for the woofer section.Swest is a good place to pick this up.
1 800 527 5057 call and get a cataloge the wire I use (flat) is on page 216 order# FS-139 for the 18X30 guage ( I made a mistake when I said it was 28 guage thick, but 30 is better anyway). You get about 40 feet per oz. Great stuff. I have used it for over 10 years now. Way before anyone was using flat wire and advertizing it.
ja in too hot, Tucson, AZ
I was using two pairs of pure silver DIY IC's, each consisting of 3 strands of individually teflon insulated 24awg silver wire, two for return and one for signal. I enjoyed them very much. Their sound was full without a trace of thinness. Good soundstage, very pleasant overall.Then I built two sets of Chris V's Finesilver IC's because I had read so much about them. And I was curious as to whether I could even hear the difference since I was already using silver, though a different design.
As you may know, Chris' IC's call for 32awg silver wires, one each for signal and return, wrapped in a double helix configuration around a cotton stuffed 1/4" tube of teflon.
Upon hooking these up (One set from CDP to Pre, another from Pre to power amp driving tweeters) I immediately noticed that there was more air between the instruments, a slightly larger soundstage and better micro detail. That is the decay of instruments seemed to be more natural.
Over the next few months they sounded better and better. I can't say enough good things about them. They simply make music sound more realistic. The soundstage exists outside of the speakers, which says alot as I haven't got room for proper placement of the speakers! Bad recordings sound decent, and good recordings are breathtaking. My wife can hear the difference even when she's in another room.
I built two pairs for around $80. I highly recommend these! For more information go to his website at www.venhaus1.com.
Fred
I will have to try them! Anything smaller than 24AWG seemed to be to small to handle in my mind!
I have to chime in on the VenHaus ICs with 32awg silver - simply outstanding. I am stil struggling with the Eichmann plug design at the end of the teflon tube being rather fragile, but I'll figure out a way to keep them solidly in place.These cables have it all - detail, bass, soundstage, speed, whatever term you may use here. Materials are relatively inexpensive, plus they can be built in 2 hours
Peter
I just ordered a spool of 32g silver and Cardas silvers RCA's per CVH to try and was skeptical and concerned it would be too thin but your post reassured me-thanks!!
listen to the music - GL
While I am using tubed Pre and Power amps now, I was using a tubed pre and a SS Bi-Amped configuration. Chris's IC thrashed the AQ Lapis amd Kimber Kable I had in my system at different times. I'm sure you've heard this before, but, give them at least 50 hours to break-in. And, Like Fred said, You won't be dissapointed
Julien Therrien
jntherrien@msn.com
What do you guys think of using the CVH silvers with solid state?? I'm assuming you silver guys are using tube gear.??
John C.
I have a tube pre and SS power amps - silver works great for all my cable runs (CD to pre, pre to mono blocks)Couldn't imagine a better cable for the kind of money I am willing to spend on IC's
I'm using a biamped solid state set-up. They work very well; I don't think you'll be disappointed!Fred
In my case I'll be using a SS amp with a tubed pre.
I re-wired my Magnepan internal wiring and cross-overs with silver with breath taking results. Maggies love silver! I'm anxious to see the results when the IC's are implemented.Many few too much silver can lead to over brightness or shrill, but the quasi-ribbon line of Maggies (IMO)can have a 'dark' nature about em' anyway and silver can help 'lift her veil' and 'bring em to light'. YMMV
listen to the music - GL
SOmeone I confer with tried DH Labs in their system which had the artifacts you describe. He since went over to Cardas Copper IC's and Speaker wires. I plan on sending him sets of everything I make up to get an eval..
talking about eval - I have a 2 1/2 -foot set of venhaus Silver IC's with Eichman (copper) plugs laying on the shelf right now. Won't need it until I get around to bi-amping or building that tube DAC I have in mind. If that length works for you, you can try it for a few weeks. It's short, so it will only work between components that are very close to each other (darn teflon tubing is very stiff)I also have some CAT-5 venhaus 5 foot bi-wires laying around for anyone who wants to give these wires a shot. I have moved to 12" versions since I got mono blocks.
Peter
Just wondering which gauge works best for you?
I am experimenting with the stuff thus far. I am using 24AWG for the topend in a Bi-Wiring situation with Tara Labs TFA Space&Time which is 18ga on the Bass drivers 18AWG. If you use Bi-Wired SpeakersSIlver seems like waste to use for the lowend another words overkillmbut with the price for Pure Silver Wire it is a steal compared to what you'll pay a commercial co. for it.I like 47Labs OTA Cable,but it is to expensive. I have an OEM company that is sending me wire that should be cost effective solution. If it is I shal try to market it in SPeaker Cables ,IC's and for Hook-Up wire.
I found that the OTA which is 26AWG makes for a great Internal speaker wire. My speakers are Metal Driver Technology and if anything is going to have a bright signature these babies will present it in all it's negative glory!
Try what others have stated works like Chris VDH design is your best bet. I am going to try it and I will also be trying some others.
No 2 systems are alike and what works for one may not work for others. I spent almost $100 to find that Canare LV77S cable sucks in my system.
I will tell you what I do like about silver is that it brings out the best for Highend detail. Cymbals and chimes and Vocals are clearer,but i do use Bi-Wired speakers also.
Dayton RCAs I really think are a steal! Eichmanns have a strange trait to them that I cannot put into words. They are good ,but there is something about them that makes them weird sounding to me!
Good luck!
Boy, you are still on this cable thing after all these weeks?! I've been there, and I would say quit if you are ahead.1.What gives Silver the triat of Brightness?
--I don't believe silver is inherently bright. Thin silver ( <24 AWG) sound very smooth and liquid/pure compared to copper. In fact, a bit too smooth sometimes in the low-treble/upper-midrange area compared to comparable copper. More significantly, thin silver has less energy in low-midrange to midbass area compared to copper, which can sound too lean and threadbare. I believe many people hear the leanness in this area and describe it as "bright."
2.Will burn in diminish the Brightness efect?--Yes, but mostly b/c bass areas become fuller sounding after burn-in IMO. Also you rarely hear brightness with silver (or copper for that matter) if it's solid core and uses "good" dielectric, such as air-articulated teflon or air.
1.What are the advantages to using litz in Silver Cables?
2.Is it just a way to minimise the effect of EMI\RFI from a system or is there another advantage?--Litz means each conductor is individually insulated, mainly to minimize "strand-jumping" of signal from strand to strand. It's got not much to do with EMI/RFI. Proper Litz wire tends to sound more coherent and less bright than plain stranded wire, both silver and copper. I still think solid core sounds smoother, but bass punch and reach can be inferior to Litz.
Skin effect must play into this also.
--I haven't seen any proof skin effect is significant with wire AWG's we're talking about. But since thin ribbons do seem to have a nice sound, maybe there is something to it. However, such designs usually suffer in the low-midrange/upper bass solidity IME.
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When I get into something I do not give up till my next quest!Good thing is I am almost through with this as I have settled on what is working good in my system,but when I read a differing opinion It makes me ask quetions. I see you use smaller guges also which is encouraging to me after reading what your system consist of!
Funny thing is It was not till someone asked me to put together a system for them last year that I started looking back into Audio! Been off\on love\hate thing since the mid 70's.
NS
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