Tweaker's Asylum

Posted by John Escallier (A) on March 05, 2003 at 18:35:21

In Reply to: Re: How to twist cables nicely posted by Jon Risch on March 05, 2003 at 17:12:01:

""These gaps between clusters of intact crystaline groups must have some affect, including an increase in sheer DC resistance.""JR

Must have some effect?? I welcome any resistance measurements using a nano-ohmmeter. I've tried, using equipment capable of measuring nano-ohms, to no avail.. "Must" means you are speculating...

""If you bend that paper clip back and forth, before it snaps in two, I bet the resistance goes up from the baseline.""JR

Have you measured it??? If you wish, I'll send you a paperclip so you can test this...Course, you'll need a nano-ohm meter..And, you will not find anything..Until the clip has completely broken.

""It is a matter of degree, and who can possibly say with certainly what is totally inaudible?""JR

I can....Now... can you prove me wrong?? Or are you going to say "must, may, degree, some effect"?

""As for being so far into the mud, I deal with this aspect in this post:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/cables/messages/2341.html""JR

No, you did not "deal" with this aspect...you speculate on what the collisions are adding to the mix...But you do not deal with it, you only repeat the speculations you state here..I do not consider multiple links saying the same, from the same person, as "dealing with it"..nor, links to somebody else who speculates...The internet is a wonderful thing,,,unfortunately it is very difficult for laymen to separate the wheat from the chaff..If you wish to provide evidence in support of your argument, please provide evidence in support of your argument. Don't refer to your own speculation...

""With literaly tens of thousands (or more) of such fractures involved in a typical cable, any signal abberations that might occur would tend to be additive under a power law.""JR

Perhaps you should read Kittel, or Becker, or Hummel, or Barret/Nix/Tetelman ...You would find that electrons hit the lattice, phonons, and imperfections every three millionths of a cm..That is Tau for copper at room temperature. That means, every inch there is about a million electron collisions...With a cable of 1 meter, say 80 million collisions (both ways)....8 times ten to the seventh...that would put 10K about four orders of magnitude below that which is already occurring...Now, are you saying (with data to back it up), that the 1/f noise 4 orders down below what is already happening can be heard?? I joyfully await your proof..with bated breath..

Now, why do you say fracture??? Or grain boundary?? Are you saying that you have found a credible researcher who has tested and proven the fact that grain boundaries affect electron flow?? Not internet links...Credible research..

Or perhaps, some other textbook, reference, from the best material physicists in the world..Rather than speculation..

""Bending cables and disturbing the conductors molecular structure is one of the theories for cable break-in, as once the cable is setting still after being plugged in, some of the fractures can re-align over time, and possibly with exposure to signals.""JR

You are correct...It is one of the theories...totally unproven or based in any credible, repeatable, verifiable testing. If it were, you'd be blasting it all over these forums, and rightly so..And re-aligning? Again, I would love some real, proven, testable verification of this..Just one will do..

""What was once at -150 dB per individual event might end up at a higher level, and one that is an issue in systems with excellent resolving power, and a low noise floor.""JR

There you go again with those hedge words,,,"might".. Do the calcs for the total collisions that ARE really there, then add the "possible" fracture/grain boundary collisions...You will find that they are too low to consider..Mud city, as it were.

""I just don't see how you feel you can summarily dismiss it without any further consideration.""JR

It would appear that my undergraduate education (and that of some others on this site) includes some physics courses you did not have the luck to take. It is unfortunate, that as engineering advances, it is sometimes necessary to eliminate the basics from the core courses required for all engineers to make way for the newer technology....A development that can only weaken the total education of our engineers.

I can "summarily" dismiss grain boundary collision issues, because I have the luck of an education which included this topic, and I am aware of the "actual" collisions that occur as a matter of course.

If you wish, I can provide you references for your perusal..

In my day job, I have to find compromised superconductors...wires 13 thousandths of an inch in diameter, with bending fractures..Had to for 432 corrector magnets, over 4.5 million feet of wire...As it turns out, at room temperature, it is not possible to measure that. We had to 100% cold test, at 200 amps.

Knowing where the conductor was cut, didn't help. With over half the conductor sliced away at a point, we were still unable to measure an increase in resistance, even with a nano-ohmmeter..Or with a pulse setup, running 500 amp pulses (real short to avoid flashing the conductor or turn to turn insulation)

So, I "discount" all the speculation..Based on education, and experience. VERY heavy experience with the most advanced superconductors and technology on the planet (to date). Note: that statement is also an ego thing...Maybe Fermilab is better, or Berkely, or CERN, but I would never admit that..Brookhaven National Lab is da BOMB!!!

If you can provide any facts, as opposed to speculation,,I am open to them..If you can provide ANY substance to your claims, I would love to learn...

To all others: Sorry for the run on...But, dealing in actuality, I've a problem with run-on speculation, especially when it flies in the face of reality.

Jon...Prove me wrong with facts and I will be the first to apologize to you, Here....

Until such time, speculation is just speculation. And hard physics which has withstood the test of time exceeding four decades, is still the best bet..You provide some really, really good info to the people here...But this particular "wild speculation" does not fit into that category. I look forward to any facts you can present to support your claims.

Cheers, John

PS..Did you resolve your motherboard/legacy drive issue..I still await the phase data you said was on your hard drive in support of a previous conversation.....I have a spare 386 board, a 486 board, a P-133, and a P-200 motherboard available if you can't get your system running...