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New Page 1 I'm looking for suggestions on how to LIVEN UP a room. Any ideas on where to
place reflective items ? I realize this is probably contraire to most knowledge,
but i've run out of ideas here. My system seems to be a bit dead, and the highs are flattish.My room is approx.18 x
18 x 8, is thickly carpeted, no furniture, and has sheetrock on all sides. My
system is all tubes (35 watts) with mini-monitors.thx
lush
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It may be that bass modes are makig the highs sound weak by comparison, and so bass traps in the corners might actually be better overall.Search the Tweaker's Asylum using my name and acoustic as search terms, you should come up with quite few posts with info.
Jon Risch
First of all, I would encourage you to move speakers. IMO, speakers should not be the exact same distance from the side walls, as the back. This needs to be a different distance for acoustic reasons.Secondly, pull down the curtains, and get some wood blinds.
Third, post more details about your system here, and we can give you more specifics. Post what racks, vibration control (if any) tweaks, etc. .
HTH,
B
For the question "where should I put speakers?" try Cardas.com. There's a good section I've linked to for you. Take out the tape measure and have at it. I have a really difficult room, and this helped my sound greatly. When you get to the link, click on the Room Setup link in the right hand column.Also, take heed of John Risch's comments. Excellent thinking going on there. Between the two major ideas in this thread, you'll get more out of your system!
B
thx for the replyMy system is all Legend Audio: a push-pull triode amp, 6sn7 preamp, silver legend wire, muse sub-woofer, all of the equip is placed on wallshelfs ("lagged" to the sidewalls studs) and placed on tiptoes , the subfloor is concrete, speaker cables are on bricks, the interconnects (20ft run)are on the carpet (my wife wanted her garden bricks back, NO power conditioner to the amps, but a power conditioner to all of the other stuff. The amps (w/tiptoes)are placed on a 2" granite slab.
My system is also listed under the inmates systems page.
I have a friend who has an almost identical system but its housed in a concrete warehouse which sounds more lively...tracks seem to be alive, they seem to be more echoey ??? Overall the other system sounded more natural, more live, and not so sterile. So i'm looking of ways to make my room more like an empty warehouse. I know i sound like the Anti-Christ, but we all hear differently.
thx
lush
Try removing the granite slabs from under the amps.Sound silly? May not help, but costs nothing to try. I'm not familiar with your amps, but my (tube) amps are very sensitive to what they sit on. A pair of (expensive) Polycrystal amp stands literally sucked all the life out of my system. Ditto with a pair of Silent Running Audio amp stands. Home-made sand boxes? Yup, same thing. Moral of the story: massy, dense "stands" under these particular amps was not the ticket to happiness. And the effect I speak of here was not minor or subtle. The amps currently sit on solid maple boards (cost $16 each at the local fancy wood store) with brass cones between the board and carpet. Best sound of anything I've tried so far. The boards aren't audiophile approved, but then, I'm not an audiophile. :-)
I received a very courteous email from SRA (Silent Running Audio) concerned about my poor experience with the amp stands mentioned previously. According to SRA, the stands are purpose-built for the exact amplifier and floor composition employed, and the stands I bought were for a different amplifier/floor application altogether. I purchased the stands used, and the dealer I bought them from was (obviously) more interested in selling the stands than determining if they were suitable for my application.
This is not meant as a "plug" for Silent Running Audio, nor did anyone at SRA request that I post this. I just felt that it was only fair to point out that my trial/experience was flawed due to using a stand that was not built for my particular situation.Bill
funilly enough, things tend to sound like what they are made of..
wood changes the sound in your system in similar ways to the way it sounds when you tap a bit of it.. that's why pine is hardly ever used (I've never seen anyone use it) .. have you ever listened to it's resonant signature? if you have then you will know why no-one uses it!... :)I think it's a Zen thing, but things always work out to be something simple.. and hi-fi is 115% Zen... :)
Kye.
Bill C, I would like to find out what type of amps you are using. I ask this question for one very important reason...In looking over our ship 2 records I do not show anyone with your "name" (Bill C)having been shipped SRA isoBASES. First, in the case of an amp, ALL units are built for an exact end use. There are a series of questions that are asked before any build takes place. These questions may range from: flooring, 2 substraight i.e. carpet/hardwood, 2 floor over a basement/crawl space. If you have used a pair of isoBASES which type? Were they "VR" series, or "Ohio Class?" If you purchased a pair 2nd hand, they may have been set up for a system unlike your own, as we have NEVER had a problem with sound being "sucked out." I would like some info off the back of the unit so I can see what you have, & 2 find out from whom you purchased your units. Could you e-mail me direct...Thanks!
The amplifiers were the Cary 805C's, and I bought the stands used from a dealer. I'll email you the details.
I agree that spikes and what the amps sit on can make a tremendous difference.Last night, I placed particle board on top of the granite then placed the amps on top of that...with little effect. I have not gone through all of the permutations (on/off the carpet, w/wo spikes, etc)of this tweak, yet. But thank you for the suggestion.
lush
Hiya Lush,The particle board, while not as good as the maple (IMO), will certainly give you a pretty good idea of the difference. Appears that the amp isolation has very little to do with your overall problem. Thanks for passing along your findings though!
Well,First, I'd move the speakers, and get the wood blinds, as I suggested. Then, if you want more, try some acoustic pressure zone controllers. These are wonderful. They not only will liven up the room, you can very the degree of liveliness with the turn of a screw. Also, they seem to take the room out of the equation almost.
Michael Green sells these, and I am sure they could analyze your room for you. They are good. Myself, I have built some just experimenting, and they definately work, though not as well as the MGD's. I will be upgrading to MGD's soon to see the difference.
HTH,
B
IMHO its not a very good idea to get more reflective items and the reason for the flat highs and dead sound is to be found elsewhere. The Legend system should sound very, very good.Could it be just the opposite? you get so many reflections it cansells and confuse. Or could it be that the amp just doesn´t cut it?
I see no first reflection treatment - a must IMHO.
I see no backwall treatment - a must IMHO
Lend, build some big diffussors and see what they can do.
New Page 1
thx mike for the replies
"Could it be just the opposite? you get so many reflections it
cancels and confuse." Yes, its very possible, though it only seems
natural to add something that seems to be lacking.
The sound i'm looking for doesn't seem to be a matter of frequency its more of a matter of echoes or subtle sound cues creating a realistic stage and mimicking that live performance thing. It all seems so sterile.
I have in the past tried a variety of wall treatments all to little or no effect. But, hey i didn't know about the first wave either. I will try making some diffusers and obliterating the first wave....does the curtain on the back wall count as treatment ?
thx
lush
Yes the curtain counts.IMHO reflections do make the sound less clear and exact, destroy imaging and make bass uneven. Is your soundstage deep and wide?? No? then reflections is (at least) one of your problems.
What happens is the brain confuse the reflection as part of the original sound, as it is delayed (longer distans to travel) it blurrs sound. In effect two sounds hits the ear one slightly delayed. Imaging is destroyed and transients become something else (soft)etc etc. It is very important to try to lessen there effect if possible, meaning floor, first wall and possibly ceeling.
In the bass it also cansels certain freq as the reflected wave bouns back into the room. What happens is the same as when you drop something into water, a wave spreads on the surface. If that wave hits something it bouns back and that back wave cansels the original wave at certain freq. You get uneven respons in your room.
This is important. Maybe you dont need to add something, maybe you need to take that back wave away?the front and back wall also needs some treatment, easy to say not so easy to do with your window on the front wall, hmm.
There are many cheap ways to try this. A rug on the wall, bookshelves with of things (anything but books), pillows, blankets and so on.
Try, reject, try again. I´m sure you will end up with what your Legends can do.
cheers
Michael Y
MichaelMy problem i believe is that my room is sonically "dead". I don't have a problem with soundstage width or depth in fact it is truely staggering, nor do i believe that its tonally askew. (i scoped it recently) The sound is just lifeless and sterile. When you go to see a performance the sound can be imperfect and raunchy at times but it's also immediate, "alive", and full of cross currents. That elusive "alive" sound is what i'm after.
I removed my curtains last night (i bet the neighbors loved that...envision old fat guy running around naked as a jay-bird)and WOW it seemed to open right up. It wasn't quite "live" enough and it also gave me some of the nasties that everyone tries to kill but a promising start, nonetheless. It looks like i'll be shopping for sheer curtains. Any suggestion for curtain types, my current currents are a canvas type material (standard curtain stuff)the wooden doors are also a option...but i'd hate to buy'em to find out it doesn't sound right.
lush
... they will eliminate some of the "nasties" you are hearing and add "warmth" to the sound.
Michael,"There are many cheap ways to try this. A rug on the wall, bookshelves with of things (anything but books), pillows, blankets and so on."
Lush is having a problem with a "dead" sounding room. All of your suggested treatments above will only deaden it more since most (pillows, a rug and blankets) of the above recommended add-ons will suck more acoustical energy out of the room and add to the "deadening" of sound in the room.
... replace the thick carpeting on your floor; it is (along with any padding underneath) killing the sound in your room. Replace the carpeting with a solid hardwood floor (not "laminate" wood because of the type of glue used to adhere laminate wood floors) and you will liven up the room dramatically. If you have flat paint on your sheetrock walls, use satin finish vinyl latex. Remove any wallpaper that may be on the walls because it will also absorb acoustical energy and slightly "deaden" the acoustics of the room.
Jim, will laying down some plywood on top of the carpet simulate the effect of a hardwood floor or a concrete floor or is there another simulation that i could try first ? (The wife will have me committed to a real asylum if i starting tearing apart the house)thx
lush
lush,The plywood (finished with polyurethane and allowed to cure sufficiently -- polyurethane takes 3 months to fully cure) could be used by using screws and mechanically coupling it to the floor. But, the down side of this is when and if you ever remove the screws to take the plywood up, you will destroy the carpet due to the fibers unravelling when the screws are removed. The last thing you want is rigid materials (concrete, granite) because good bass response is dependent on surfaces which have good resonance characteristics and which can "flex" (that's why drywall, OSB and wood are good materials to use in a room to maitain liveliness and harmonic balance in the sound).
fsdf
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