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In Reply to: RE: What fuse did you have before? posted by hawkmoon on August 04, 2020 at 07:34:52
I think I had the red, they are blue with a red line going thru the lightning bolt (?) At any rate, to hear an improvement over the previous is big. Read the reviews at high end electronics, I think many found this version to be the best.
Follow Ups:
One direction will sound better. I've listened to Furutech, ACME, Hi-Fi tuning Fuses at length in my amplifers. Each fuse has its own signature sound.
Fuses are not directional because the current flowing through them (in AC applications) is not directional.
Even IF a fuse had a diode effect the net result would still not be audible.Tweaking is one thing. Nonsensical adventures down an audiophile rabbit hole is something else.
Dave.
Edits: 08/04/20
It's fun to try different things. That's what this hobby is all about.
There's nothing to try.
An AC line fuse is switching direction 120 times a second.
The premise of a directional fuse is a canard.
Dave.
To expound further on Davey's point, the idea that electrons or charge carriers are marching back and forth on a wire is a rather poor simplification. The current density at a given point is changing but the actual movement of charge carriers (drift velocity) is slow. The movement of free electrons in a metal is random and application of a voltage (electron force) causes a general shift of the electrons in the opposite direction of the field. In a conductive solid this rate of movement is about 1 mm/sec, and in a vacuum tube, it is about 1/10 the speed of light. This is different from the electromagnetic wave that is propagated (see Maxwell). Also the assignment of the direction of the carriers is entirely arbitrary based on the convention that electrons have a negative charge. So the idea that current flow is affected by the orientation of a fuse is just nonsense.
I married the perfect woman - the downside is that everything that goes wrong is my fault.
Edits: 08/08/20
But it sounds different! That's the point-and its very easy to try.
How hard is it?
...
You've made the error of applying logic to audio.
I've still never tried it, but Ralph from Atma-Sphere seems to think there's something to it. (link below) Scientific, and measurable, according to him.
where someone not only did point to point wiring at the fuse junctions, but also soldered interconnect and speaker cables sans plugs/jacks directly between all components. Sounded fantastic per the article. Never heard anything further on it. Guess it didn't catch on.
Cheers!
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
I fail to see how there is a conflict between what I wrote above, to the effect that audiophilia and logic are sometimes not good partners, and the bit about Ralph's idea on fuses. In any case, I followed up that subject with Ralph, privately. He and I are long time related as customer and manufacturer, so long that we have become friends. I own a now very old MP1 preamp and a pair of his large OTL amplifiers, to drive a big ESL. I would never be so presumptuous as to say that those who hear elaborate improvements in SQ, due to exotic fuses, are "wrong", and I didn't say that here. I guess my private doubts come across in my tone. You could call me an agnostic or a hypocrite, but I do use Acme fuses in the output stage of my circlotron amplifiers, where fuses are in series with the signal. I also installed Acme fuseholders to go with. Acme seems to offer "audiophile" fuses and fuseholders at a reasonable cost. One of my pet comments here and elsewhere, which you can also dig up, is to wonder aloud why one would install a very expensive fuse in a typically poor quality fuseholder. Acme at least takes a shot at making a good fuseholder. I wonder whether Oyaide or Furutech make such a product, now I think of it.
I think any of us could go over our systems and find things we do religiously that make no logical sense or that are supported by very faulty logic. It's OK. We're human.
As I said to Tre', I was actually hoping you tried Ralph's suggestion. Every time I read it, I always tell myself that I've got to try that "one of these days", but never have.
I didn't take your post as a "They can't make a difference!" position. I don't come on here to routinely disparage tweaks I haven't tried either. I only jumped in on this one because of Ralph (who's an electrical engineer, if I remember correctly) offering an easily measurable reason why fuses might make a difference.
As I've said in other posts before, my biggest hesitancy, in addition to price, is the reliability factor of these things. If I knew that a $100 fuse would open exactly the same as a $1 UL rated one would when over-loaded, I might try one. I wouldn't be happy if I fried one of my old Dynaco amps due to a fuse not reacting, but if my First Watt F1J (only 100 made) went up in smoke because of a boutique fuse not opening in time, forgiving myself would NOT be easy.
If fuses sound different (for whatever reason) try no fuse so you will know what you're shooting for. Jump the fuse holder with the same gauge wire as the wires leading to and from the fuse holder and have a listen to that.
Be very careful. If anything shorts out there will be no fuse protection. Don't burn your house down.
Until you try this test you have no idea which fuse is "right' and which is not.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I decided to remind Lew of his exchange with Ralph, hoping he had actually tried Ralph's suggested experiment and would post his results.
Ralph's explanation regarding voltage drop at least offered me some possible scientific plausibility regarding the efficacy of various fuses and/or their directionality.
Meanwhile, I'm busy trying to see if I can improve a 12AX7 based phono stage I build years ago, and honestly, that interests me a lot more than "the sound of" fuses.
An inexpensive sand-filled ceramic fuse with silver alloy wire is a good place to start (or end). It's better sounding than a typical glass fuse, IME.
See link:
Are these Aucharm safety certified?
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Alfred E. Neuman
I would expect the product is built by a reputable Taiwanese manufacturer. A fuse is not something amateurs attempt to build without concern about consumer safety. The Taiwanese and Chinese electrical products I choose to use have no UL safety certification involved, neither do the vast majority of audiophile power cords sourced from anywhere in the world. Nobody is twisting listeners arms to use a silver alloy fuse from Taiwan if they don't wish to. Perhaps you will do the grunt work and investigate the nature of consumer safety guidelines in Taiwan and report back to the forum.
A fuse is a safety device, a power cord is not. By your "logic" there is no need for any certification of fuses. Those who object to using any fuse that has not been certified by an independent organization like UL or CCC, Chinese Compulsory Certification or a number of others are completely reasonable in wanting independent certification of a safety device like a fuse, IMHO.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Alfred E. Neuman
I did not object to 1973shovel's position on the subject, nor anyone else's.
You asked if the product is safety certified:
The AMR Gold Fuse is the same product as the Aurcharm and the MS Audio Valab fuse. According to AMR Audio, the product involves UL SA PSE CE CCC approval.
See link:
Thanks Duster.
"Fuse Skeptic" was not the best choice of words for me to use. In retrospect, I like Lew's "agnostic" a lot better. I honestly do try and keep an open mind about some of these things.
As I said to Lew below, I'm not comfortable using a fuse, whether it costs $3 or $150, without knowing if it meets UL test requirements for opening when it's supposed to.
I know some make the same argument about aftermarket power cords not having UL approval. That doesn't bother me (if they're well made), because I have fire extinguishers. But an internal malfunction in an irreplaceable amplifier causing it to be destroyed because a fuse from Taiwan did not open properly, that's a risk I'm not willing to take.
Just a heads-up, 1973shovel.
See link:
"Ralph's explanation regarding voltage drop at least offered me some possible scientific plausibility regarding the efficacy of various fuses and/or their directionality. "
I agree. It's just that every time this comes up it surprises me no one seems to have thought of trying no fuse. That's the only way to get a base line.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Everybody knows that one inch of bad wire...
Sorry, I couldn't resist it.
Oh but it's true, it's true. This is why, for the test to be valid, you have to use the same wire as the wire leading to and from the fuse holder. :-)
I am so grateful that I received a good electronic education early in life so I wouldn't fall into the many traps of this nutty hobby.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I do understand, Tre'. As an example, when I started fooling around with upgrading old tube equipment back in the early 1990s, a friend suggested I take a basic electricity course, which I did.
I was a Stereophile reader at the time, and when the instructor described electrons moving through copper wire, I clearly remember thinking to myself, "Then how can wire affect 'sound'?". Yet I had taken part in a blind (but not double-blind) impromptu interconnect listening test, where differences were heard by those of us sitting in front of the speakers.
My point is, if a basic electricity class caused doubts, then I can only imagine what having an engineering degree might do to my thinking. Voodoo and magic come to mind. I recently found a post by Twystd (link below), where he was comparing unbypassed cathode resistors, metal film to carbon film. His EE friend was there, heard the difference, and, "He immediately got angry and accused me of trickery, then stormed out."
So, like Lew, I'm somewhere in the middle. I have my doubts, but try and keep an open mind. Call it a Missourian "show me" approach, even though I've never been to Missouri.
But there is a problem right out of the gate. Do you know what unbypassed cathode resistors do to the performance of a tube?I'm not saying that resistors all sound the same, they don't. But the overall sound of a circuit using an unbypassed cathode resistor will be greatly compromised to start with so you might just end up just comparing crap to more crap.
I don't find much value in that.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 08/06/20
"But the overall sound of a circuit using an unbypassed cathode resistor will be greatly compromised to start with so you might just end up just comparing crap to more crap."
After a quick look at the schematics, I don't believe any of my equipment uses cathode bypass caps!
At the risk of getting a legitimate STFU from the original poster, I'll post any further questions I have over on DIY Tubes.
Thanks Tre'!
Even to find that one fuse sounds any different from another would be interesting, and in fact, I had that experience, but I am still not quite willing to believe my ears. There were 4 other audiophiles in the room, at least two of whom are highly respected audio designers known to us all. The fuse was fusing the LED display on an otherwise totally passive preamplifier, which was really only an attenuator, no AC required. So, we did it for fun, comparing a boutique fuse to a hardware store fuse that came with the unit. All of us agreed with no dissent that the sound was better with the cheap fuse. Go figure.
In keeping with the kind of argument Ralph made, I guess it's possible that having a clean contact surface at each end of a fuse is important, on the notion that unwanted resistance and/or whatever inductance and capacitance can be elicited by a poor contact might alter the AC. I don't even like airing this idea; it's grasping at straws for sure.
"The fuse was fusing the LED display on an otherwise totally passive preamplifier"
That would be a place to safely try no fuse at all.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
The opportunity to do that is long gone. The system and the attenuator were not mine, and now my friend who owned that system has sold it lock, stock, and barrel. In order to downsize.
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