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In Reply to: RE: If you had taken the time posted by Tweaker456 on May 22, 2017 at 09:30:13
1.if they were not self healing enough to not be a fire hazard there is no way UL would let them be sold with the mark. 2 depends on the application. The ceramics can can be critical in applications where film capacitor construction (read series inductance) limits their response. 3. It may not be wise to write ceramics off entirely.
Follow Ups:
Ug, ceramic caps are not self healing at all as far as what I read from Kemet and other places. Of course they are fire resistant. Kemet in their literature doesn't seem all that enthusiastic about their use. They even have an alternative to ceramics that have a safer failure mode, see below link. These are rated Y but I myself don't like the idea of a short as a failure mode when used across the line compared to an open. Anyhow,as stated many times, this is mute. Larger caps sound better IMO and other's opinions. The larger caps, up to 10uf are made by Kemet for EMI suppression for a reason. And the reason is so audio folks can buy them, listen to them, realize how fantastic they sound and get back to Tweaker and tell him what a freakin genus he is. I rest my case, maybe. Tweaker456 You have to scroll down almost to the end to get to the PHE850 discription.
"The Borg is the ultimate user. They're unlike any threat your Federation has ever faced."
- Q, 2365
"Anyhow,as stated many times, this is mute."
Is there any prediction as to when you will be mute?
Well, let's see. I'm 65. My mother is 94. An uncle just past on at 100. Should give you some idea. I read that only one in ten thousand reach 100 so there is some hope for you and Duster et al. Warm regards, Tweaker456
"The Borg is the ultimate user. They're unlike any threat your Federation has ever faced."
- Q, 2365
Who cares if they are not self healing if the current paths in the faults are such high resistance that there is no danger of fire? For example: if a momentary arc is established during some transient and the chemical result of the plasma and the ceramic, air, etc is a high resistance substance that passes little to no current, and the arc nearly immediately self extinguishes, OR if through rigorous testing it could be established the construction is such that it can be guaranteed the risk of dielectric failure when used per rating approaches zero, what is the danger there?Let's take another angle...UL can be sued. Do you really think Kemet or UL would survive in america selling UL approved capacitors that burned down houses protected by american insurance companies with all their lawyers in this sue happy place?
Kemet not enthusiastic about their use? Where do you get that idea?
"Larger caps sound better IMO and other's opinions"
So now you are saying you've tried every conceivable environment with every conceivable configuration of electronics then? cause that is what it would take in order to form such a broad ranging, blanket opinion. In case you didn't notice, this task would be all but impossible to accomplish for mortal man and that is why I and others would call BS on such statements.
Edits: 05/24/17 05/24/17 05/24/17
They are not UL or CSA certified. Kemet says they are not needed. They are vigorously tested by others. Looks like they are tested to at least 8000 volts in a pulse test. Probably a lot higher pulse tests than in the self healing caps. I stand by my assertion that for audio that a "higher quality cap" and a much larger cap will sound better to many people able to perceive what I believe is a not so subtle difference. This is what a tweaker's forum is about, IMO. I am not the only person who has perceived this. What ever you do don't try it for yourself. That would be a BIG mistake, would be very time consuming and expensive. And if, in the extreme unlikelihood you heard a positive difference you would be then subject to cognitive dissonance. We wouldn't want that, now would we? On the up side if you didn't hear something positive you could come back and try to make me look bad again. Much more important to some on Tweaker's Assylum than, shall we say, tweaking. Tweaking on tweaker's assylum, wow, what a concept. T456
"The Borg is the ultimate user. They're unlike any threat your Federation has ever faced."
- Q, 2365
Edits: 05/24/17
The parts linked by the OP clearly are UL approved as the data sheet describes the graphics on the package and calls the UL mark a "UL approval mark".
With the X1 rating they are only verified to 2500V impulses but will typically be rated much lower for continuous basis, ie with something like 260 VAC continuous rating.
That you seem to be implying I have no desire to try the biggest capacitors money can buy would be an indication you have no idea what you are talking about. I prefer to take a more scientific approach to filter design and will use whatever makes sense to get the job done.
It looks like Kemet may have two different info sheets on this series of capacitors. This time I got the link to work. Page 10. You think I would just make something like this up? The statement of lack of UL certification is in their own literature. Maybe they were compelled to update?? A bit strange. Tweaker456
"The Borg is the ultimate user. They're unlike any threat your Federation has ever faced."
- Q, 2365
Search Results
[PDF]safety certified capacitors - Kemet
www.kemet.com/Lists/.../900%20Series%20Product%20Training%20Module.pdf
not cause electrical shock, but it could open safety fuses or circuit breakers and cause fire. ... KEMET 900 Series Safety Disc Capacitors are offered with a combination ... KEMET 900 Series devices do not have UL or CSA certifications. It is not ( me-I tried to link this but had trouble for some reason. They state on page 10 that they are not UL or CSA certified and that they don't need to be. If you google 900 series capacitors not UL certified you will come up with this. Open and go to page 10.)
"The Borg is the ultimate user. They're unlike any threat your Federation has ever faced."
- Q, 2365
You have to be really careful with language when it comes to the lawyers, UL and all that. The parts in question are UL recognized, and are marked as such. You can be certain UL would not allow this to continue unless UL felt they were up to the task. UL has it's own really good lawyers to ensure this kind of thing and you can trust me when I say they aren't afraid to use them. I'm not sure what you mean when you state they aren't certified, as per data sheet they are recognized and presumably meet the minimum requirements to display that level of UL mark for that purpose.
The 900 series may not all be recognized parts but the ones with the mark almost certainly are!
I would guess that approval and certification mean the same thing. If you blow up the photo of the cap on the link I saw first and sent there is no UL approval printing on it. Usually one is on pretty solid ground when quoting direct from the horses mouth. So you can see that I didn't make it up. Something changed. I would still be happier and it looks like Kemet agrees, with a cap that is more likely to fail in a open than in a short. Rare events. Much happier with a "better quality cap" of larger value. Your mileage may vary. Are you not the least bit curious if my opinion along with the opinion of at least the person who wrote "The Great Capacitor Shootout" has any merit from a direct experience? To get the job done? Well Kemet thinks that much larger caps get some job done in relation to EMI filtering.Why would they make them otherwise? What job I'm talking about is improvement in subjective sound quality. I've tried weird tweaks with both amazement and other respected tweaks with no perception of improvement and even degradation. But I at least gave them a shot. Hey, digits are digits,right? T456
"The Borg is the ultimate user. They're unlike any threat your Federation has ever faced."
- Q, 2365
Edits: 05/24/17
Recognized means that a component is not Listed as a stand-alone device to be used any which way an end-user might try, but if used as part of an assembly or larger device, and that device is Listed.
A common example is industrial control panels.
Interesting info. So now we have recognized, approved and certified. T456
"The Borg is the ultimate user. They're unlike any threat your Federation has ever faced."
- Q, 2365
Ug, According what I read on the net is that their ceramics are NOT UL approved. Kemet's own discription of their "new" non ceramic capacitors are that they are safer in failure mode. Of course they are tested and safe in most cases because failure is a rare event and doesn't always mean some sort of catastrophe. All anyone has to do to see if it works for them is to try it. It's a very easy and safe tweak. And yes, of course I have tried every cap ever made against a .01 ceramic. Great criticism bro. I would prefer to be criticized after 20 or thirty people took a few minutes to wire up a 10uf or so ac rated Type X cap , compared it to a very small cap like .01-.3uf and have hardly anyone hear the difference.
"The Borg is the ultimate user. They're unlike any threat your Federation has ever faced."
- Q, 2365
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