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In Reply to: RE: Blackgate break-in again? posted by sherod on June 16, 2016 at 10:03:22
I changed the Black Gates I had started off with in that tuner and were fully broken in then changed them out with some Nichicon KZ to see if there was a difference. Yes, there was and not for the better. But when I put the Black Gates back in, they kind of sound like when I had first put them in. So I let them break in again until the sound came back to what it was before I took them out. I can't remember exactly but I think it took like 3 days being on with music again to come back to that sound.
Also I have noticed that if the component is that has the Black Gates in the power supply that if it's not used for a few weeks to months, there is a break in period again but nothing like the very first break in period. It took a few days.
Just my experience with the Black Gates
Hopefully this helps.
Follow Ups:
Here's a pic of one of my amps showing half of its 160,000uF, 16 Blackgate 80Volt VFK cap power supply.
Been off for 2 months. Oh, no. I'm in big trouble!!!
what is the actual voltage across those 80V rated BGs? As someone more knowledgeable than I has pointed out, with electrolytics the optimal results are obtained when the operationg voltage is close to the limit of the voltage rating for the capacitor. (You also mentioned the number "16", which is either the actual voltage of that circuit or the number of BGs doing the filtering; I am not sure which is true or if either is true.)
Actual voltage is 75 volts. 16 is the number of 10,000 uF caps, half to each channel for the output stage. Amp is a tube hybrid with 6SL7 inputs (separate PS) and bipolar outputs putting out 220 watts / channel into 8 ohms and 400 into 4.
Edits: 06/18/16
So choosing an 80V rated capacitor to filter a 75V supply is just about perfect. As the late great Gilda Radner said in her Emily Latella character, "Never mind".
voltage ratings. Some say to use caps that are rated 5 volts higher than the operating voltage. Counterpoint used to do and look at their failure rates in the power supplies too. Also this was the same in my EDGE amp that lead to a cap in the power supply failing. I used 100vdc caps where the power supply voltage was 50vdc. Still has that great sound my amp had before and my even bettered it.I always use capacitors that are 15, 20, or even 50 volts higher than the power supply voltages and same for rail voltages. I have never heard any difference compared to caps rated just 5 volts higher than the power supply voltage
I just want a longer lasting and safer unit. 5 volts under the caps rated voltage is too close for me.
Edits: 06/24/16
After I posted the above, I recalled that it was Kondo-san of Audio Note fame who is said to have expounded on this issue. Perhaps it was Art Dudley, or someone else of Art's stature, who re-stated what Kondo is said to have said. (Since I don't read Japanese, I of course have no direct idea what Kondo might have said.)
However, I don't recall anyone specifying a 5V margin; that IS cutting it close. The potential danger of going so close to the limit is that upon turn-on, in many types of gear, there is a transient voltage surge due to capacitors getting charged up. Probably not much of a problem in equipment using tube rectification or choke input filtering, but most modern stuff uses solid state rectification and capacitor-input filtering, where such a phenomenon does occur.
to it but I can't find it now. I was just commenting of what I had saw before and just wanted to let others know that this is not good.
I have seen in Counterpoint gear caps that were used in their power supplies with cap voltage ratings were only 5 volts higher than the operating voltages. a lot of those power supplies had damage due to cap failures.
I think I do recall there were reliability problems. Metallized film capacitors probably can tolerate a brief period of over-voltage better than either electrolytics or film and foil types. I am sure it varies according to construction and manufacturer's method of rating for voltage. Some are probably more conservative than others.
Quite a few of the problems were in the power supplies and with the caps failing and traces burning up. But they were great sounding gear and when fixed properly Counterpoint is some fine sounding gear.
The other issue was those tightly matched Mosfets that had no Source Resistors to share the current.
Counterpoint does have some of the best sounding Phono section in their preamps.
The other issue I found out was the Counterpoint gear goes through tubes faster than other tube gear I have. Maybe due to the way they are biased.
This amp bears no resemblance to earlier Counterpoint amps being a completely different circuit design. It has only a pair of 6sl7s for input and a separate toroidal choke regulated supply for the tubes. No funky tube matching issues like the old SA20. It uses matched bipolar output transistors not Mosfets with no resistors. All the parts in it are custom including the wiring and over 50 TX 2575s in the signal path and a giant custom Plitron power transformer for the output stage.Agree. Would not advise 80v caps on a 75 volt PS rail - using 100v on its twin. The muting relays minimize current surge on turn on. These particular PS caps have been in use for 15 years with no issues.
Sounds better than nice......
Edits: 06/29/16
I was only replying to the OP what I had noticed when I had the tuner off for a few months and then again when I had pulled the caps out to try the Nichicon KZ caps. It took it a couple of days to get the sound back to where it was before. It's not a big difference but one I could tell right away. Believe it or not, that's what happened!As for your amp maybe it won't have to go through that.
I have only experienced this with the Black Gate caps. It also happened like that with the Rotel RCD-971 cd player. Which had a quite a few Black gate caps in it.
Edits: 06/16/16
I have not really noticed any change in sound when the amp is off for a bit other than the usual changes with warm up. I do find Black Gates a little dark and closed-in sounding until about an hour of use, especially the ones in my tuner.
The worst caps for break-in I've ever experienced have been big values (15uF) of Duelund Cast Copper used in a passive speaker crossover. After 80 hours of listening, I finally gave up and put them on an Audio Dharma Cable Cooker on the 12V / 2 amp circuit for 5 days. That opened them way up! Well worth the wait.
Barry....always good to hear about great results from the Cooking. Quite a few customers have had similar success with a variety of values with the Dueland's....they are beasts with so much dielectric material and mounds of conductors. Thanks for the post.
when off for a while. It might be different for amps as I never tried them in a power amp due to cost.
I use Audyn Copper foil caps in Xovers and are very good. May not be in the Dueland class be very close for a lot less. I may be trying the Jupiter Copper foil caps in my BAT preamp soon, but I am happy with the Jensen copper foil caps that are in there now.
Audio Note has got together with Rubycon and are making caps that are very close if not right there with the Black Gates. They just don't use the graphite that the Black Gates used.
and I would guess the Jensen copper foils would sound very nice.
Good luck with the experiment!
the prices for these NEW Audio Note Electrolytics is way out of my range. I have found some electrolytic caps that do the job for me for a lot less.
Thank you, Cougar. Yes, that is helpful. My source also happens to be a tuner, except I subbed Silmic II for Blackgates. I think the Blackgates are better, at least in the MPX and output boards, so they are going back in.
I have recently found that a mix of Black Gate and Silmic II in key locations sounds the best. Too many of either doesn't sound right.
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