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In Reply to: RE: "their size is the equivilent of the size of the opening when a standard door is open one inch." posted by Ethan Winer on May 12, 2009 at 12:37:55
Oh really? Interested to hear all about your listening system in the lab room. I seem to recall seeing some photos posted on your site. If memory serves I saw the test equipment, but no hifi gear. Or are you saying you were listening to a test tone?
If all the people who use the product with music or theater systems like the results, and you listen to a test tone and don't, I will go with the people that listen to music/ theater, which includes me.
And anyway as noted in an earlier post, as I was told that the manufacturer did not feel your testing methodology was correct for this productt so "the manufacturer offered you the opportunity to retest using the appropriate methodology and you declined." I don't believe anyone is saying you did anything wrong in your test, or that the results from the testing methodology you used were in error, only that meaningful testing the Cathedral Panels requires measurement of a sustained tone or noise (to allow the standing waves to build up), rather than a tone/noise burst.
My terminology may be all wrong, but hopefully you get the gist of what I am writing.
Maybe this methodology is unusual in your experience, but this product functions differently from what you are used to.
Follow Ups:
> this product functions differently from what you are used to. <
Dude, you'd sound less like a shill for this product if you posted your real name and city. If you're unwilling to do that publicly, send me an email from my personal web site and tell me about yourself.
Otherwise you're just repeating the vendor's marketing prose, as if saying it often enough will make the claims true. You've already acknowledged that the related science is over your head. Perhaps you should quit while you're ahead?
Edit: Boy do I feel silly! I just clicked the link for your name and see that you're the sales rep for this product. Wow! So you shill for the product hiding (not very well) who you are, and you admit you have no idea how the product works. Wow, just wow.
--Ethan
Yes, Ethan, like duh, but the (D) next to my posting name means I am a dealer in this industry. Because we sell acoustic products including the Cathedral Panels, ASC, Echobusters, etc., I took your 2 year old critique of the Cathedral product and their documentation seriously and followed the earlier threads and exchanges between you and the manufacturer very carefully. I have been very direct with the manufacturer in this regard and they have been very forthcoming in return. I respect their responsiveness, willingness to acknowledge that the third party that ran the original, since withdrawn waterfall plots, goofed, and they didn't catch it (you did), and their willingness to offer even you, their most vocal critic, the opportunity to retest using a testing methodology that works with their product.
Why don't you address the questions (such as when you say you "heard them in the lab room at my company's factory" are you talking about hearing test tones or music?) instead of getting personal? I can get personal too if you insist.
I love the part too about my needing to quit because I am not an engineer. Hey, at least, unlike you, I have used the products I referred to (Cathedral Panels, Shakti Hallograph, Roomlens, Synergistic Research Acoustic ART, as well as the "conventional" ASC and Echobuster products). At least I admit what I don't understand, instead of insisting that if I don't understand it, it can't work.
Anyone is welcome to share their opinions, but you claim to be an expert, and you beat everyone up with it that has differing opinions (or, sob, who isn't an engineer). Don't you have to have basic experience with the products being discussed to be an expert on them?
So if I am a "shill" because I have actually used the products and like them, what exactly is someone who trashes them unheard because they don't fit your set of comfortable theories?
I don't "beat people up" when they disagree with me, at least not if their disagreement is legitimate. I've learned a lot over the years from people that disagreed with me. But this is not at all like that.
In this case the product is too small to be useful, even if it did work. But it doesn't work, so it's not even minimally effective. Claiming these panels work on "new physics" that defies the large body of current knowledge about room acoustics is sophomoric and disingenuous.
A good example here is Auralex LENRD bass traps. The absorbing material they're made from works well enough, but they're too small to target low bass frequencies. They still improve a room at least a little at higher bass frequencies, which can be easily heard and measured. Versus Cathedral panels that do nothing beyond placebo effect and wishful thinking.
--Ethan
Nobody called it "new physics." Quite the contrary, as was pointed out, the Venturi effect is very old physics. Since the first up when I Google it is Wikipedia, I will post that link below.
I think the only "wishful thinking" here, is your wishing that it didn't work because that would challenge your stuck in cement attitudes.
Assuming that your having avoided the repeated questions regarding your claim to actually have listened to the Cathedral panels means that in fact you did not listen to them, maybe you can stop repeating with emphasis that it doesn't work unless and until you actually have some listening experience with the product in the real world, by which I mean with a music or video system.
And if you want to test it in your lab, at least try the methodology suggested by the manufacturer. Just a thought.
Which leaves us right back with the fact that everyone who has posted on this product after having actually used it, and every reviewer who has actually reviewed this product, liked it.
Since this whole thread started with someone asking for opinions on his room, maybe we can leave it on this note, and suggest that if he is interested, maybe he can test with a money back guaranty - ask a dealer.
I know I am worn down by the whole interchange.
> I know I am worn down by the whole interchange. <
Ya think?
BTW, I did listen to music in the room that day with the Cathedral Panels in place and heard no effect. They don't work. They can't work. Wishing they work will not make it so. Convincing a few people that they work also does not make it so. Some people are convinced they heard an improvement after "demagnetizing" their vinyl LPs. That doesn't make it so either.
Okay, I'm done. :-> )
--Ethan
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