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My brother asked me to build him a set of speakers (my first speaker project). I would like a sensitivity>93db, slightly warm and unfatiguing sound, good with vocals but it should also rock. I did a bit of research on the web and restricted the options available:MTM Configuration
Floorstanding cabinet (Possibly TL loaded???)
Tweeters: Raven1, Raven2, Audiom TLR
MidBass: Seas Excel W17EX002, PHL Audio 1230, Focal Audiom 7NV2I excluded ScanSpeak drivers becouse of their lower sensitivity (I might reconsider them if some of you convinces me that they are "superior" to the alternatives above, in case I might use a 9500/8545 combo). The Ravens are very actractive but I noticed that their use implies some complications in the xover network. The PHL woofers look very promising at 93db 16Ohm, but I did not find much info around. I noticed though that there are a few designs that mate them with Raven2. I noticed that Zalytron sells similar set-ups. They also sell an MTM combination of Triangle and Raven 2.
Any suggestions regarding the drivers/configuration? I did not hear all the drivers and would appreciate some opinion on how they compare with each other.
Thanks a lot
Ago
I can say that the Raven R-1 tweeters are marvelous. I have a pair of Aria 5R's (kit from Zalytron), an MTM design from d'Appolito with a pair of Focal kevlar composite 5" bass-mids. The Ravens are sweet, with an extended, fast and clean top end. However, they are very revealing, so a good audio reproduction chain is in order. Not something to be pair with cheap solid state (actually, I have never heard them with solid state, currently using 300B SET amps). Never heard the Raven R-2, but the dimensions of the tweeter makes an MTM design more difficult.
Hi David,Thanks a lot for you answer. I have read many poitive comments about the aria. I was wandering though what type of bass response do you get.
Also when you purchased the kit, I am sure you considered also the other options. Excellent3 for instance has the same configuration and the same tweeter but it uses Seas drivers. The price is also comparable. What made you select the Aria? Why did you select the AriaR vs the AriaTlr?Thanks
Ago
Bass response on the Aria 5R is fairly decent given the 5" drivers, I would say down 3dB between 50 and 60Hz. I do use subwoofers, allowing the Aria 5Rs to work full range, cutting in the sub at 60Hz. Occasionnally, I find myself listening forgetting to turn the xover on, and don't notice the missing deep bass. Much better than my previous mini-monitors (ProAc Super Tablettes), which without a sub sounded stark and lean. I would say it on the borderline of needing subs with these speakers.I purchased my kit about 1-1/2 years ago, before Zalytron had the wide range of high performance MTM designs that they do now. I selected this kit based on the rave review in Speaker Builder. I was considering building Lynn Olson's Ariels, but the cabinet construction seemed too challenging at the time. As it so happens, I did hear a pair of Ariels built by a local DIYer, and feel that I made the right choice, the Ariels sounding kind of closed or covered, with alot of problems in the bottom end (mistuned).
Concerning the Focal TLR's vs the Raven R-1, someone in our local DIY group has heard both, and feels that the Raven is the better tweeter, being notably sweeter and clean. I have also heard that opinion from others, but I am sure one can find opinions the other way as well.
David
Couple of quick things.
The Audiom 7NV I think you will find is truely a midrange and not a midbass.You want " slightly warm and unfatiguing sound, good with vocals"
But you are picking some drivers based upon sensitivity that do not have those characterisitics (Ravens, TLR and Metal cone midbass).
In the right setup, fine sound can be had, in a slightly off setup those units are going to show you the warts, be their own or the remaining setup.Why the sensitivity target? It's fine, just trying to gather more background to help make more informed suggestions.
What are the supporting electronics/sources?
Getting an MTM up to 93db is not very hard, due to the increased output and lowered overall impedance (assuming parallel connection)
Some of the Focal, Audax, Cabasse and Seas can get you there along with the PHL.
For the price you seem to be willing to pay (TLR/PHl/Ravens) and the type of output/music, you may want to look into some Altec Duplex drivers. Yeah, they will be significantly wider than a 18cm midbass enclosure, but they will meet your design criteria.
Carefull what alleys you go down.
Edp,I would like some high sensitivity speaker so that in the future I will be able to use them with a 300B SET (or similar). As I mentioned I like vocals and the mids should aloow to have the most natural possible presentation with a good soundstage. As I specified in the messages below I selected the drivers among other things becouse of their hisgh sensitivity and because of the fact that there are available kits using them (remember that this is my first speaker project and a kit would be preferrable). Most people refer to the Audiom TLR and to the Rave as "sweet" sounding. I thought they might do.
By the way, I had a quick look at Altec website, but I could not find any Altec Duplex drivers. They sell a range of compression drivers though. Are you referring to those? Which particular model? What about the TAD drivers in this case?
Regards
Ago
Hi there,I would like to see first some Calrifications:
1) With 93db/W/m, do you imply > 93db/1m for an Electrical Watt (like with loadmatched Valve Amplifiers) or do you imply > 93db/1m for 2.83V with the Impedance of the speaker allowed to drop as low as it wishes (so basically dow to below 3 Ohm or thereabouts)
2) When you say "warm and unfatiguing" are you implying the soft treble sound so common with softdome tweeters due to their damped brakup above appx. 5kHz, do mean a Speaker with a Response that emphasises the lower Midrange (and below) slightly over the upper Midraneg and Treble, do you want the classic "BBC Dip" ?
3) What is desired LF Extension? Do you need "Satellites" to go with Subwoofers? Are you looking for a Speaker with build in active Sub? Or near Fullrange?
In order to get the maximum Quality I PERSONALLY would recommend the use of modest size (5.25") "midrange" drivers which allow a very wide bandwidth, helped out in the low bass by a added Woofer and above 4 - 6khz by a sutable tweeter.
In such an application the PHL Units in MMT (better than MTM IMHO) would be great, but they do need a woofer. The Focal Tweeters are a matter of taste, I like them a lot and dislike Softdomes (Scan Speak, Dynaudio) quite a bit. Other people feed differently and the differences in sound are neither subtle or small, nor can they be sliminated by changing X-Over Designs....
BTW, can I throw in a "stalking horse" from the side? What about a high Quality 8" Coaxial Driver like the better Radian Unit with a really good (TAD 2001) Compression Driver as "satelites" cobined with a suitable subwoofer? This way you get > 93db/W/m with an easy to drive Impedance in a compact and good sounding package....
Later T
Thanks Thorsten,Sorry for beeing unpreciese, here comes some clarification
1) > 93db/1m for an Electrical Watt
2) Natural sound is the target, not cold, not metallic, not Solid-State type. Vocals are my reference point, so I'd like natural sounding vocals (and I guess I prefer the lower-mid over the mid-high)
3) The speakers will be used as full range to begin with but an active sub might well be added later. If I'll ever use a sub it will most likely be active. I am a bit scared by a 3-way Xover design and since this is my first project would prefer a 2-way design. It would either be MTM or MMT (I thought that MTM would generally be better but I take your point and will have another look at it).
4) Electronics: gaincard type amp. It might be upgraded to a SET in the future.Thanks
Check this design at http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/Ariel.htm. These are difficult to build but they are just wonderful with SET amps. I built those and just fell in love with them. With my 300B amp they sing. They are sweet indeed. Email me or anybody in the Ariel builder clubs if you want some detail.
Jeff,Regarding the Ariels my considerations are:
1) The cabinet is difficult to build and I do not have any wood-working skill (Aloha might sell the cabinets though...)
2) Given that the Vifa are only 5.5'' they should be bass shy even with tl load. What about the ME2 as satellites and separate active subs as the ones proposed by Olson???? Has anybody tried that?
3) Their SPL is decent but not exceptional (91-92db) and I understand the impedance is at 4Ohms. Will they really work with an 8W SET???
4) I really love mids and it looks kind of strange to me that $30 drivers are the best thing around. I would not mind to spend something more. I think that SEAS Excel, Scan Speak, Focal, PHL might be better (pure conjecture: never compared the drivers directly). I like the argument that the Vifa do not need any equalisation. I am not sure about the other drivers, but if I recall correctly some of those had a pretty flat frequency response.Let me know what you think, given your experience with the Ariel
Thanks
I personally dislike excel drivers (IMHO metal is not good for cones)..and they are pretty expensive..
some scan units are nice but the 8550 is reported to have a resonance problem..
Wilson used a driver that can be bought from zalytron for $28 in their earlier watt/puppies.
maybe you should check out Dick Olsher's Poly natalia(it uses audax aerogel drivers that some people hate/love and it is rather big but is 94 db and judging by the other DIY stuff DO has done it should be quite good..sensible design approach)
Hi there,based on your requirements and desires I'm not sure you are going at this from the right angle....
While I have not heard the Raven Ribbons, I'm familiar with the old Decca Units and a number of other true Ribbons and Magnetoplanar units. I am a great fan of the Focal inverted domes and have used them more than once....
Non of these treble units could be accused of sounding warm. They will fairly precisely reproduce what is fed in.
Of the Cone Drivers you have listed both Focal and PHL are IMHO pure Midranges, basically unsuited for operation on their own with bass.
The Seas Excel Drivers can be very good but are exceedingly hard to apply. I would not recommend to seasoned professionals (I have heard a few commercial speakers using them) and certainly not to someone who starts out....
I would suggest to reconsider.
You can buy ready sorted Kit's that will broadly fall into the category.
The Triangle & Raven Kit from Zalytron is interresting, especially if you where combine it with a slight twist.
I would recommend a floorstanding box with two "TQWT" combined. On the Front one of the Triangle units in inverted layout with the raven, the triangle on the top rear, upward radiating.
By using unequal length TQWT the negative sides of the TQWT (lumpy bass) can be offset and the benefits (good efficiency) fully reaped. In the UK Castle makes commercial Speakers using this principle, I can attest that it works very well.
I have just finished the review of a commercial Speaker from Denmark using also unequal lenth TQWT at the core, again, the bass quality was outstanding, the exact reverse of classic TQWT....
I would recommend the Triangle Drivers firstly because they will leave you with a reasonably high Impedance (around 6 - 7 Ohm Nominal, 5 Ohm minimum - this is still "doable" with SET Amp's) and with a fairly high usable sensitivity, especially if using the "double barreled" TQWT loading. Morover, the good efficiency allows you to "throw away" some efficiency to equalise the system in such a way that a "warm" balance is established....
Secondly, the Triangle Drivers are basically full-range Drivers (whith a notably shy HF response). As such they are much better "behaved" than most 6.5" Drivers in what in the Triangle/Raven Box is "out of band".
Even designing an X-Over from scratch or just using a variation of the classic series X-Over without shunt Capacitor across the woofers (resistor only) as it is being attempted to be patented by a famous Cable manufactirer at the moment and a rather high X-Over frequency should work just dandy....
So basicaly, Triangle because they are efficient and forgiving....
I would almost note that the use of the Raven is an option, a Focal Tweeter (or perhaps one of the better Fostex Horn Tweeters) might also work and will be less fragile than the Raven ribbon, requiring a much less steep X-over....
Anyway, these are my thought on the subject....
The Double-Barreled Triangle TQWT should be able to exceed 93db/W/m handily and go down to perhaps 40Hz in a modest floorstanding enclosure....
I'll enclose some additional links on a number of subjects related to this basic idea below.... N-Joy.
Later T
Some "Audioreview" responses to the Castle Howard and Harlech (commercial double barreled TQWT's)...
http://www.audioreview.com/reviews/Speaker/product_8705.shtml
http://www.audioreview.com/reviews/Speaker/product_7028.shtmlOn-Line Promo of the Howard and related Castle Speakers....
http://www.campsiehifi.com.au/Castle/howard-s2.htm
http://www.aslgroup.com/audsys/castle/howard.htm
http://www.castleacoustics.co.uk/inversion-range/inv100/inv100.html
http://www.castleacoustics.co.uk/classic-range/harlech.htm
http://www.castleacoustics.co.uk/classic-range/howard.htmSome stuff by Dick Olsher on WHY upward firing drivers are good....
http://www.blackdahlia.com/samadhi/cbae.htm
Thanks a lot,Very, very useful. I will certainly have a good look at that.
By the way, the driver I proposed were selected also for the fact that there are lots of kits available (so that I will not have to worry too much about the actual design) -all in an MTM configuration- (Raven1+Focal; Audiom TLR+Focal; Raven1+Excel; AudiomTLR+Excel;Raven2+PHL; Raven2+Triangle; SS9500/8545). Many people seem to be happy with the Raven1/TLR+Excel combo. I also read good thing about the Aria models based on Focal drivers. Raven2 + PHL looked interesting due to the 16 Ohms impedance of the PHL drivers, so that the speaker should be at 98db into 6-8 Ohms! But I have not found much information on those drivers nor could I get a frequency response chart. Finally I was intrigued by the Triangle for their full range capabilities.
By the way, if I am not mistaken some time ago I read that you were going to undertake some experiment with a front horn loaded Lowther driver and with a tower arrangement. Did you publish anything on that? It would be very interesting (pure curiosity for now...).
Thanks
Ago
Our latest project is a Raven R-2 and a pair of PHL Audio 1230's.Best sounding drivers I have ever heard.
We have also worked with most of the drivers that you have mentioned, I will be glad to give you the pros, cons, and comparasions.
I will be glad to offer my insights, opinions, or send you some information.
Danny Richie
GR Research
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